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COVID is leading to quite some people rethinking what they want, but money talks, and as always. Lobbyists of "dirty energy" will continue to lobby the government so that they will remain relevant for as long as they could get away with, regardless of whether it makes environmental sense or not.

Avocado, for example, carries a massive environmental cost when producing them, yet they are not $60/ea. Go figure.

Bitcoin is a bit of an outlier I'd argue, but financial costs rarely reflect the environmental impact. After all, unless climate change happens literally daily (sea level rising 0.5m every day for example), polluting activities will not stop.

As for the cost, almost all "green", "clean", "responsible" stuff carries a premium, whether they truly are what they meant or not. Unless those billionaires carry their duty towards society (which is unlikely) and subsidise more environmental friendly stuff, nothing much will change. After all, who wants to give away $1b to people who will never benefit me in any shape or form?

The solution is strong armed regulation.

In China money can’t buy politics. When China lead the way on those changes, they will shake the industry and the world will follow.

But China has given other people a strong enough impression of "affordable" labour with a comprehensive system supporting mass production in a timely manner, something other countries can't easily reproduce in a year or two. China made itself into the world manufacturing center, and changing this will cost a lot. I don't know who is going to pay for it.

China is saying things loud and clear - Made in China 2025, 2035 preliminary goals, and 2049 objectives. Plus BRI.

People are not listening.

None of which listed above addresses essential needs: food, shelter, air, water. But maybe other areas not listed here could revolutionise how basic needs are being addressed.

China doesn’t have any of those problems, either does the rich world. I don’t know where your locale reference is, maybe Japan? Same thing.

Both Japan and China are pretty good at making stuff, including infrastructure. So, shelter is never a problem. I don’t know what the concern is here. Please indicate your locale of concern. Because if you say India, then the game is different. They are dealt with a different deck of cards.

Meet who's demand? Local demand? Overseas demand? Or both with a delicate balance?

Yes, American Janitors should meet American Janitorial needs. American garbage pickers should meet American recycling needs. American textile workers should meet American textile slave mill needs. Can‘t find anyone? Jack up the wages and prices.

And become self-sufficient economic power that can survive on its own in this world, risking being excluded from the world economy? Wow, this is an ambitious goal to achieve.

I would envision China’s import and export with the world to be similar to the trade relationship between Taiwan and Japan, or Germany and the US. Same with the flow of people.

You buy my Sony mDSLR, I buy your TSMC chips. You buy my denture cleaning tablets, I buy your electric toothbrush. You buy my chocolates, I buy your biscuits. You buy my sex doll, I buy your fertility products, etc.
 
We need to bring manufacturing back to the West. China is used for cheap because they have diabolical pollution standards and super-cheap labour. That's a real injustice to Western civilisation.
This is not injustice to the people who are making bank out of this… apparently.

When China’s wage level reaches parity with the West, things will change.
 
I'd imagine there are a lot of ruined chip wafers when the power cuts out. 'Cost of doing business' in China now?
Pretty much. China has shown its true Color and Australia is their first victim. The only question is how big the cost could be before drastic measures are required.
 
And China knows that. Speak the word 'union' in China, and see what happens to you.
You actually missed something.

I once worked for a big name EU company in their Shanghai R&D centre, and all the employees are unionized. I’m not sure how common that is in China though. But the thing is everyone there a knowledge workers, White or East Asian. Their factories elsewhere in China are not unionized, as I have been there and asked.
 
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I'd imagine there are a lot of ruined chip wafers when the power cuts out. 'Cost of doing business' in China now?
All chip makers have stand by generators in China.

And like I said above posts, China “rations” electricity when there is a severe shortage on the grid, which is extremely rare, it has never happened before COVID. When China rations, it’s based on how valuable your work is. Making plastic spoons, or paper mill? Well, take a paid vacation by the State Grid. Making chips? Keep going.
 
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All chip makers have stand by generators in China.

And like I said above posts, China “rations” electricity when there is a severe shortage on the grid, which is extremely rare, it has never happened before COVID. When China rations, it’s based on how valuable your work is. Making plastic spoons, or paper mill? Well, take a paid vacation by the State Grid. Making chips? Keep going.

I would hope, but I've heard of widespread power outages in Russia too. And North Korea, although I'm sure the hacker cubicles are guaranteed 100% power.

So the 'big commodities' are power, water, and internet access. I guess food is in there somewhere.
 
They rely on coal and there are coal shortages.



China can basically do whatever they want until 2030 while other countries are forcing themselves into unsustainable regulations to meet Paris and Kyoto agreements.
 
Then Americans better get used to a different way of life.
Exactly, I tell people about a company making jeans in Detroit...made 100% made in America. Cotton grown in America, fabric woven in America, jeans made in America buy people make a wage that they can live on. When I tell them the prices, they flip out on me and sat bull****, it get them for $14.95 in Walmart! whelp, there you go.

 
We must destroy the global economy and supply chains to... uh... save the world! Calling CO2 a pollutant and our reaction to it will = us destroying ourselves in the name of saving ourselves.
Uh, CO2 is a polutant, it's what you exhale....go breath it and when you are done....if you are alive let us know
 
Exactly, I tell people about a company making jeans in Detroit...made 100% made in America. Cotton grown in America, fabric woven in America, jeans made in America buy people make a wage that they can live on. When I tell them the prices, they flip out on me and sat bull****, it get them for $14.95 in Walmart! whelp, there you go.

Clothes are overpriced in general whether they’re made here or in some random country. It’s disgusting how little clothing actually costs to make ….even fancy Detroit jeans. It’s purely a luxury industry like any luxury item it cost a couple bucks more to make and the up charge is many many more times that.

That aside most Americans don’t make enough money to be paying 2-300 or a pair of jeans. That’s a whole other issue.
 
Exactly, I tell people about a company making jeans in Detroit...made 100% made in America. Cotton grown in America, fabric woven in America, jeans made in America buy people make a wage that they can live on. When I tell them the prices, they flip out on me and sat bull****, it get them for $14.95 in Walmart! whelp, there you go.


I used to by the Made In America Levi's. They are pretty good, but there have been some quality issues with them, but the denim they use wears forever.

I have three pair, from over the years, and if you treat them right, they will last a long time. I wash them every few months, and never (almost never) dry them in the dryer. Seriously, they are the most comfortable jeans I have, but I don't need another pair yet. Maybe planned obsolescence isn't such a bad idea?
 
An it's the only country that has that much manufacturing capacity in one place.

They seem, from everything I've read about 'Life in China', to have the most near automaton populous in the world. Vietnam and other 'Middle Eastern' countries seem to come close second, and the Japanese too. Their people are all into the work ethic. Give them a job, and the parts to do it, and they will almost work themselves to death doing it, and can change in a hot minute and build something else. And they don't expect breaks, lunch, and a 5 day (4 day) work week. Many of them are 'kept', near servants, 'owned' by the company they work for. Such practices were outlawed in America fairly long ago. But there is nothing wrong with earning a living wage, as long as the products are worth the price, IMO. I cringe when I buy things that I know could be 'Made in America', but aren't. Nails, screws, bolts for instance. *shrug* It breaks my heart to see so many in my town who have been shown the door by the auto plants, and ancillary suppliers that have flown for other perches, leaving a wasteland of past employees suffering. It's not politics, it's economics. Investors make more money when their products are made for peanuts, and still sell at the same price.

But this is off the subject of power outages. They have become more frequent around this end of the creek. We lost power for three days late last year. No idea why. Got a notice that the power company would have power back on Friday, 8:00PM. It was still TUESDAY! It came on early Wednesday morning. Almost every light in the house was on. *groan* And the Washington Post, I believe, had an article about how hundreds of power conglomerates took money to help keep their customers on the grid, and cut their power anyway. How's that for gratitude. I can post the link, or someone can google it. Amazing...

One thing about China, they had a food tampering problem. As I remember it, hundreds of babies were poisoned because the company was using tainted supplies. The CEO resigned. The government, supposedly, executed the entire top management of the company. I would think that would help ensure food safety compliance. I'd been meaning to see if that was true. It was probably 10-ish years ago. And yet they still have issues... BIG issues... *shrug*
 
Uh, CO2 is a polutant, it's what you exhale....go breath it and when you are done....if you are alive let us know
Really? So a naturally occurring element in air is a pollutant? Might want to rethink that definition.
Is nitrogen a pollutant? Argon? I’m pretty sure you can’t breathe those exclusively and live.
If CO2 really is a pollutant, we should rid the atmosphere of it at once! Though I’m not sure the plants will be very happy, and if the plants aren’t around anymore, kiss your a-s goodbye.
 
Then a lot of people would lost a lot of money
Well, we are forced to pick one unfortunately. And we know in the future we will lose billions if not trillions by the damages we will Ned to fix. We know that the short term costs are hundred’s of times cheaper than the Long term cost we will be forced to pay
So we learn by listening to the fear mongers of today?
You listen to the science of today and 60 years ago. We ****ed up by ignoring it
 
Really? So a naturally occurring element in air is a pollutant? Might want to rethink that definition.
Is nitrogen a pollutant? Argon? I’m pretty sure you can’t breathe those exclusively and live.
If CO2 really is a pollutant, we should rid the atmosphere of it at once! Though I’m not sure the plants will be very happy, and if the plants aren’t around anymore, kiss your a-s goodbye.
A pollutant is a substance or energy introduced into the environment that has undesired effects, or adversely affects the usefulness of a resource. A pollutant may cause long- or short-term damage by changing the growth rate of plant or animal species, or by interfering with human amenities, comfort, health, or property values. Some pollutants are biodegradable and therefore will not persist in the environment in the long term.
 
You listen to the science of today and 60 years ago. We ****ed up by ignoring it
This fear mongering has been going on for 120 years (vacillating of course), and the end of civilization catastrophes have yet to materialize. On the contrary, fossil fuels have lifted humanity and provided the means to adapt to the earth’s climate - whatever it may be.
It is foolish to abandon fossil fuels now, and the least fortunate in the world today will be the most impacted by that decision.
 
Maybe supply chain savant timmy should actually do something to tackle this instead of stroking his own ego in his virtue signalling Hollywood cgi inclusive keynotes from flying saucer hg...

It should be Apples strategic long term priority to move MORE production out of china.
I am sick of the wests and trillion dollar corps addiction to cheap goods produced in a nation with single party totalitarian rule using slave labor , non existent human rights and poisoning the world with 1000s of dirty coal powered 'scrubber-less' power plants running to produce all of those shiny 'sustainable' apple products...
 
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