Wifi 2.4ghz vs 5ghz - Watch

[rigormortis]

Because you have to have your wif credentials stored in your watch/ipad, if you can't simply forget your 2.4 ghz network or your watch will not be on wifi. So, if you have to have 2.4 ghz credentials in your iOS devices, and your devices favor 2.4 ghz it does have a affect on you getting true ac.

i thought ac was 5ghz

i didn't now ac was anything to do with 2.4


i don't see how.

rigormotis's only solution, but it won't work on a watch i bet
-----------

forget wifi networks.

change wifi networks names to separate names like netgear and netgear 5ghz

don't use the wifi password to connect

use the pre shared key.

using the preshared key for each network ( 2 and 5 ) will prevent the client from connecting to the wrong band, period

go to https://www.wireshark.org/tools/wpa-psk.html

this runs on the web browser and is not transmitted over the net

give it your SSID ( your network name ) give it your password , it will spit out the Pre shared key. instead of using
the password use the pre shared key . the pre shared key is unique to each SSID and password combination.

it is impossible to connect to the 5 ghz wifi network with the 2.4 ghz pre shared key.

 

[rigormortis]

Sorry. It is not bad information. Seamless transitions is not something Apple is known for. If you try what I posted above about coming and going between your routers range, you will notice it will pick up the 2.4 ghz because the range is further, and hang onto it as you are inside. If your 2.4 ghz AND your 5 ghz have similar range (ie, you dont have spots in your house where you can't get 5, but can get 2.4) perhaps you just have to worry about this. But those of us in brick/stone houses, with basements, this is not the case.

thank you for clarifying this

 

[rigormortis]

that preshared key post won't help with the watch, but it is the only way to restrict devices to a specific band.

i do a lot of plex , and it was the only way to keep my roku on 5 ghz, its an old trick of mine that dates back to the amazon kindle keyboard

 

[JT2002TJ]

that preshared key post won't help with the watch, but it is the only way to restrict devices to a specific band.

i do a lot of plex , and it was the only way to keep my roku on 5 ghz, its an old trick of mine that dates back to the amazon kindle keyboard

It isn't the only way. You can restrict MAC addresses on each band in router settings. That's what I did based on advice from this thread. I have 3 wireless points (one router, and 2 Moca range extenders) running 2 different SSIDs (one for 2.4 ghz and one for 5 ghz), I went into all three and blocked my ipad and iphone MAC addresses from just the 2.4 ghz frequency. Be sure to do this after you already have the credentials stored in the phone. Now the password is in the phone & watch, but each access point will just block you from connecting on the 2.4 ghz, so it will then move to the 5 ghz.

 

[exxxviii]

Sorry. It is not bad information. Seamless transitions is not something Apple is known for. If you try what I posted above about coming and going between your routers range, you will notice it will pick up the 2.4 ghz because the range is further, and hang onto it as you are inside. If your 2.4 ghz AND your 5 ghz have similar range (ie, you dont have spots in your house where you can't get 5, but can get 2.4) perhaps you just have to worry about this. But those of us in brick/stone houses, with basements, this is not the case.

Except that is not happening in my house or my neighbor's house. Both of us see our devices (Apple and non-apple) moving between bands. Both of us have two-story brick homes with basements. His has a single WiFi router on the first floor. I have a router in my basement and an Access point on my second floor. They work great.

I agree that Apple is week in networking, but this particular iOS behavior may be working better than some think. I suspect that those with the most problems are using Apple WiFi routers. (Totally my guess.) Those with better WiFi performance may be using non-Apple WiFi infrastructure.

The "bad information" in my above post refers to how to configure a WiFi network for optimum performance, not this iOS band latching issue in particular.

 

[rigormortis]

It isn't the only way. You can restrict MAC addresses on each band in router settings. That's what I did based on advice from this thread. I have 3 wireless points (one router, and 2 Moca range extenders) running 2 different SSIDs (one for 2.4 ghz and one for 5 ghz), I went into all three and blocked my ipad and iphone MAC addresses from just the 2.4 ghz frequency. Be sure to do this after you already have the credentials stored in the phone. Now the password is in the phone & watch, but each access point will just block you from connecting on the 2.4 ghz, so it will then move to the 5 ghz.

the apple watch cant communicate at 5ghz, it does not have that radio in it.

thats why i don't understand all this ac jazz

if it cant connect at 2.4 then the only way it connects to your phone is bluetooth

mac address can be spoofed.

most routers have the same password on 2.4 or 5 , but if you really want to restrict something, then use the psk.

 

[JT2002TJ]

the apple watch cant communicate at 5ghz

I know. The problem people are facing is their iphone/ipad are connecting to the 2.4 ghz and not staying on their 5 ghz. Since you HAVE to have the 2.4 ghz credentials in your phone/ipad, if you block the MAC address of your iphone/ipad it will connect to the 5 ghz only. But since the credentials are stored in the watch for the 2.4 ghz, it will connect to the 2.4.

 

[rigormortis]

I know. The problem people are facing is their iphone/ipad are connecting to the 2.4 ghz and not staying on their 5 ghz. Since you HAVE to have the 2.4 ghz credentials in your phone/ipad, if you block the MAC address of your iphone/ipad it will connect to the 5 ghz only. But since the credentials are stored in the watch for the 2.4 ghz, it will connect to the 2.4.

meanwhile if its stuck on 5 ghz its only connecting at 150 mbit, because its an iPhone 6

id be furious right now if someone had an amazon fire phone was mad because it wasn't on 5ghz even though that phone is limited to 72 mbit @ 5ghz because of its single antenna


you don't need to block the mac address. just use the psk. its simpler and it does not rely on your router having that abilty. my airport extreme does not allow me to restrict mac addresses to a specific brand. i would have to throw away my airports to do this

you can just use a different network name and then forget the password for the 2.4, its just the preshared key makes it more impossible for it to connect to the wrong band

 

[JT2002TJ]

you don't need to block the mac address. just use the psk. its simpler and it does not rely on your router having that abilty. my airport extreme does not allow me to restrict mac addresses to a specific brand. i would have to throw away my airports to do this

you can just use a different network name and then forget the password for the 2.4, its just the preshared key makes it more impossible for it to connect to the wrong band

I fail to see how this solves the problem. Our problem is we have apple watches that there is no interface to input wifi credentials. Using your route, how does one connect the watch AND keep their ipad/iphone off of the 2.4 ghz frequency?

Are you sure you cant restrict MAC addresses on the extreme using different versions of the utility?

 

[rigormortis]

one of the reasons why the apple iPhone is the best smart phone in the world is that it has 1, 2, or 3 ( or maybe 4???) wifi antennas. where as most other phones makers are stuck in the old days with one antenna @ 5 ghz., like the samsung s5. or worse still using 2.4.

if we were on android forums, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because of the limitations of that platform, hahaha

 

[JT2002TJ]

meanwhile if its stuck on 5 ghz its only connecting at 150 mbit, because its an iPhone 6

I use Moca range extenders, so I'm already limited because of that. I tested 2.4 ghz on a moca extender vs. 5 ghz on the same moca extender, I was getting twice the bandwidth, so for that reason I am trying to make sure my ipad/iphone stay on the 5 ghz frequency.

 

[rigormortis]

I fail to see how this solves the problem. Our problem is we have apple watches that there is no interface to input wifi credentials. Using your route, how does one connect the watch AND keep their ipad/iphone off of the 2.4 ghz frequency?

Are you sure you cant restrict MAC addresses on the extreme using different versions of the utility?

i can restrict a device connecting based on its mac address
i don't think i can restrict a device from connecting a specific band based on its mac address with airport utility

solutuon 2
connect phone to 5 ghz using pre shared key. and the 5ghz name and don't use the password.

rely on apple watch to use bluetooth only., and live with it.


rest of post deleted. experiment failed!

 

[JT2002TJ]

...

Or... the best solution... Replace airport extreme with any good access point that allows you to MAC filter on each frequency. Even my Fios AC router can do this...

 

[rigormortis]

i guess you will have to live with bluetooth
- final answer.


i was able to erase wifi networks from the phone and still have them on the watch but it didn't survive a reboot, so the final final answer is to live with bluetooth.

iCloud / iPhone tells watchos 2 what passwords to use. and the watch can connect to wifi networks it knows about, but those passwords are not retained on the watch when it reboots, as far as i can tell


damnit
it is still showing signs it is connected with wifi still. i still see the cloud icon! but i have no idea what i can do in this condition, when the iPhone has lost all of its wifi passwords and its bluetooth is turned off

 

[douglasf13]

Or... the best solution... Replace airport extreme with any good access point that allows you to MAC filter on each frequency. Even my Fios AC router can do this...

As was mentioned earlier, if you run a bunch of Apple devices, getting away from an Apple router can be a nightmare. I've had all kinds of problems with various Apple laptops + various routers over the years, so I finally gave in and got an Airport Extreme, and I haven't had an issue since. In fact, I've got a pretty decent Sonicwall firewall and wifi router, and I still run the Aiport into that.

 

[rigormortis]

i don't get it

i removed all passwords from the phone
the watch still worked until a reboot

after the reboot it showed a cloud icon and it said it was still connected but nothing worked, like mail siri or phone calls.



i gave my iPhone the 5ghz preshared key to the 5 ghz network
i turned off bluetooth

the watch still connected @ 2.4 ghz

i think its because one of my airports broadcasts the 5ghz name on channel 11

 

[rigormortis]

looks to me that bluetooth is the mechanism that pushes the wifi password to your watch.
once the iPhone tells the watch how to connect, you can erase the passswords on the phone
and it will live until the watch is rebooted

watch os 2 is supposed to tell the watch how to connect to wifi on its own.
if you do a pull down and see a cloud on the "find phone" screen , it means its connected to the net
and the phone is near by.

once the phone told the watch how to connect, i can turn off the phone and still make phone calls on the watch
because of t-mobile

 

[exxxviii]

As was mentioned earlier, if you run a bunch of Apple devices, getting away from an Apple router can be a nightmare.

What kind of nightmare issues have you encountered with the WiFi infrastructure? Of all things, it seems like the network infrastructure would have the least impact on the Apple experience.

I have a mixed network with 7 iOS devices, 2 Apple Watches, 2 MBAs, 3 W7 laptops, 1 WiiU, 1 Hackintosh, 2 Logitech remotes, and probably a few other WiFi devices I am forgetting. I have never noticed any performance difference between the Apple and non-apple devices, and everything freely moves between bands and access points as the devices have need.

 

[douglasf13]

What kind of nightmare issues have you encountered with the WiFi infrastructure? Of all things, it seems like the network infrastructure would have the least impact on the Apple experience.

I have a mixed network with 7 iOS devices, 2 Apple Watches, 2 MBAs, 3 W7 laptops, 1 WiiU, 1 Hackintosh, 2 Logitech remotes, and probably a few other WiFi devices I am forgetting. I have never noticed any performance difference between the Apple and non-apple devices, and everything freely moves between bands and access points as the devices have need.

Various Macbook models and OS X iterations have long been know to have issues connecting with certain Wi-fi routers, and, I've owned so many MacBooks over the last half dozen years that issues have come up from time to time. Heck, I can't even connect to the wifi at the coffee shop I'm in right now with my tiny new Macbook, so I'm connected to the shop next door's network. After spending zillions of hours on forums over that time, I finally gave in and bought an Airport for home and office, which just "works."

If you only have 2 MBAs, and they work, it sounds like you're in good shape.

 

[exxxviii]

Various Macbook models and OS X iterations have long been know to have issues connecting with certain Wi-fi routers.

That's Apple-- they never met a standard they didn't want to bastardize.

 

[barjam]

Except that is not happening in my house or my neighbor's house. Both of us see our devices (Apple and non-apple) moving between bands. Both of us have two-story brick homes with basements. His has a single WiFi router on the first floor. I have a router in my basement and an Access point on my second floor. They work great.

I agree that Apple is week in networking, but this particular iOS behavior may be working better than some think. I suspect that those with the most problems are using Apple WiFi routers. (Totally my guess.) Those with better WiFi performance may be using non-Apple WiFi infrastructure.

The "bad information" in my above post refers to how to configure a WiFi network for optimum performance, not this iOS band latching issue in particular.

I just tried this with iPhone, iPad, Macbook Pro and a Samsung Laptop on an Airport extreme. None of the devices dynamically switched with a split or a same SSID configuration.

I could find nothing in the protocol that would allow a base station to suggest moving to a different band. Everything I found stated that it was up to the client to decide if it was interested in switching and most implementations will decide to pick the one with the stronger signal which will always be 2.4ghz.

 

[exxxviii]

I just tried this with iPhone, iPad, Macbook Pro and a Samsung Laptop on an Airport extreme. None of the devices dynamically switched with a split or a same SSID configuration.

That makes it seem even more likely that the problem is your specific router. If it were true that all devices only choose 2.4GHz because of signal strength, as you suspect your devices are doing, then 5GHZ would be fundamentally broken and non-functional. I believe what you are experiencing is atypical behavior.

Check out this post from an alleged former Apple WiFi engineer. He makes specific dual band SSID recommendations, explains it, and even gives a couple sentences to explain how the clients are supposed to choose.

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/answers/4-wi-fi-tips-from-former-apple-wi-fi-engineer

What if there is something wrong with your router that leads clients to always choose 2.4GHz?

 

[douglasf13]

That makes it seem even more likely that the problem is your specific router. If it were true that all devices only choose 2.4GHz because of signal strength, as you suspect your devices are doing, then 5GHZ would be fundamentally broken and non-functional. I believe what you are experiencing is atypical behavior.

Check out this post from an alleged former Apple WiFi engineer. He makes specific dual band SSID recommendations, explains it, and even gives a couple sentences to explain how the clients are supposed to choose.

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/answers/4-wi-fi-tips-from-former-apple-wi-fi-engineer

What if there is something wrong with your router that leads clients to always choose 2.4GHz?

You'll notice that, in the comments for that article, others also mention that they have better results running two SSIDs. I think that article is a bit dubious.

I've actually been running combined SSIDs for my 2.4 and 5, until reading this thread, and, now that I have my computer and iPad running only on 5GHz, it sure seems zippier, at least anecdotally. A lot of it likely depends on the interference in one's house/office.

 

[exxxviii]

I love my network.

I did a quick series of Ookla Speedtests with my iPhone 6s and iPad Air 2.

I started in my living room, which is one room above and a couple interior walls away from my basement access point and the opposite end of the house from my upstairs access point. This is probably my worst coverage room in the house. Both devices were on the basement AP at 2.4GHz. They got about 50 Mbs download and 12 Mbs upload (all the tests got around 12 Mbs upload).

I walked upstairs near the other, and both devices flipped to the other AP at 5GHz. They got 90 Mbs download.

I walked to the other side of the upstairs, and they stayed on 5GHz and got about 80 Mbs.

I walked down to the basement by the main router (the original AP hosting the first test) and both devices flipped to the local AP at 5Ghz. They scored 85 Mbs on that one.

Then, I went back to the living room and they both stayed on the basement AP but flipped to 2.4Ghz like originally. I disabled 5GHz on the basement router, and re-ran a speed test there. I got about 38 Mbs.

So, not only did my devices dynamically flip between access points and bands, but they intelligently choose the best AP and band that gave the best throughput. I love science!

You'll notice that, in the comments for that article, others also mention that they have better results running two SSIDs. I think that article is a bit dubious.

Does the fact that responses from lap-people that contradict an alleged (former) Apple WiFi Engineer make it dubious? The article is describing a standard WiFi network configuration.

 

[barjam]

I love my network.

I did a quick series of Ookla Speedtests with my iPhone 6s and iPad Air 2.

I started in my living room, which is one room above and a couple interior walls away from my basement access point and the opposite end of the house from my upstairs access point. This is probably my worst coverage room in the house. Both devices were on the basement AP at 2.4GHz. They got about 50 Mbs download and 12 Mbs upload (all the tests got around 12 Mbs upload).

I walked upstairs near the other, and both devices flipped to the other AP at 5GHz. They got 90 Mbs download.

I walked to the other side of the upstairs, and they stayed on 5GHz and got about 80 Mbs.

I walked down to the basement by the main router (the original AP hosting the first test) and both devices flipped to the local AP at 5Ghz. They scored 85 Mbs on that one.

Then, I went back to the living room and they both stayed on the basement AP but flipped to 2.4Ghz like originally. I disabled 5GHz on the basement router, and re-ran a speed test there. I got about 38 Mbs.

So, not only did my devices dynamically flip between access points and bands, but they intelligently choose the best AP and band that gave the best throughput. I love science!

Does the fact that responses from lap-people that contradict an alleged (former) Apple WiFi Engineer make it dubious? The article is describing a standard WiFi network configuration.

I can be anywhere in my house and completely saturate my internet connection (50mpbs). Using another tool that tests just locally I am seeing 90-150mpbs at 5ghz. The 2.4 is so congested where I live 20-30 is absolute max. Far parts of the house it is 9.