macOS Will 10.11 spell the end of Carbon compatibility?

[SMGreenfield]

Any thoughts on when we might see an end to Carbon compatibility? We have some legacy apps that have not completed porting to Cocoa, and wonder if June 8th will set an End-of-Life date for ALL legacy Carbon apps.

Opinions? Rumors?

 

[gnasher729]

Any thoughts on when we might see an end to Carbon compatibility? We have some legacy apps that have not completed porting to Cocoa, and wonder if June 8th will set an End-of-Life date for ALL legacy Carbon apps.

That's not your problem really. It's your management's problem. Well, first it is your customers' problem, then they all scream if your apps stop working, then it becomes your management's problem, then they all panic and run around like headless chicken, and then you tell them "I told you all along" and nobody listens, and then they make it your problem

 

[Anonymous Freak]

First, Apple announces the "end of usability" far in advance.

They announced the Classic compatibility layer going away early. (And of course people who needed it could continue to use older versions of the OS.)

They announced PowerPC support (Rosetta emulator) going away early. And of course people who needed it could continue to use older versions of the OS.

Lastly, they won't just have *poof* on June 8th Carbon apps will stop working.

They could very well announce it, yes. But there would then be a period of time to port Carbon apps. And Apple has declared Carbon is a dead-end for *MANY* years.

And, finally, of course, if you absolutely *NEED* to use a Carbon app, you continue to use an older version of the OS.

In the previous hardware-based switches (death of native OS 9 booting, Intel switch,) Apple continued to sell previous-system-capable systems for over a year. They continued to sell the OS 9-bootable Power Mac G4 for a year after the line became largely OS X-boot-only. They continued to sell the Power Mac G5 after the Mac Pro came out.

 

[bumblebritches5]

And Apple has declared Carbon is a dead-end for *MANY* years.

It's been meant to be just a quick fix to get apps up and running since 2001, anyone that's still on it is just crazy

 

[Partron22]

just a quick fix to get apps up and running since 2001, anyone that's still on it is just crazy

Or doesn't want to waste their investment on Inside Macintosh vols. 1-5.

 

[firewood]

Any thoughts on when we might see an end to Carbon compatibility? We have some legacy apps that have not completed porting to Cocoa, and wonder if June 8th will set an End-of-Life date for ALL legacy Carbon apps.

Opinions? Rumors?

IIRC, the most current update of Xcode hasn't been able to build Carbon apps for at least a couple of years. You might have to find and boot a 3+ year old Mac with OS X 10.7 or earlier to recompile Carbon apps. (I keep one around just in case...)

 

[CreatorCode]

It's been meant to be just a quick fix to get apps up and running since 2001, anyone that's still on it is just crazy

Except that's not what they said in 2001. Until perhaps 2005 or so, the official line was that Carbon and Cocoa were going to be equally valid and equally well-supported, and all OS features would be available through either framework. Cocoa would get a few things "for free," while Carbon devs would have to do a little more busywork, but other than that, there would be no differences.

People reading between the lines could see Apple's attitude changing, but It wasn't until 2007 or so that Apple started to visibly neglect Carbon.

Still, it's 2015 now.

 

[briloronmacrumo]

IIRC, the most current update of Xcode hasn't been able to build Carbon apps for at least a couple of years.

Well, it's true the current Xcode doesn't offer a Carbon template but Xcode WILL allow the Carbon framework to be added and a Carbon app built ( and obviously this is possible feeding the parms directly to clang ). Apple might keep Carbon in the OS for a while since it has more control than it did with the Rosetta emulator( where licensing forced their hand ). Clearly Carbon doesn't make sense for developers because it lacks 64-bit support and other newer APIs

 

[briloronmacrumo]

....but It wasn't until 2007 or so that Apple started to visibly neglect Carbon.

Well, when Apple announces no 64-bit for Carbon in 2007, deprecates the majority of the API in OS X 10.7, and says "use Cocoa not Carbon" at every opportunity, it has to be clear to all but the clueless. Considering Carbon apps still run in El Capitan, it seems Apple has provided more than adequate warning/notification of the inevitable Carbon removal.

 

[zeppenwolf]

I still subscribe to the CarbonDev Apple email list. No reason, really, except that I never bothered to unsubscribe.

I think the last post was about a month ago. That's about how often something happens: once a month or even less. Whoever posts will surely get some generous and knowledgable help, there are good people reading to this day, but still-- it's some lonely terrain out there.

 

[Dargoth]

Carbon will most likely be dropped the day Apple stops supporting 32-bit, and they may not stop supporting 32-bit until Intel does, and Intel probably won't until 128-bit becomes a thing in the distant future. Honestly, I think Carbon is here to stay for awhile, regardless of Apple's deprecation warnings.

 

[Cougarcat]

Don't know about carbon, but 10.11 is the last OS to support garbage collection, which could kill some abandonware apps in 10.12.

 

[v1597psh]

Still present in High Sierra. Can't believe they supported it for so long. I think that's the only major API that hasn't really changed since Leopard which means all apps that built with Carbon are compatible with every macOS since Leopard. At one hand, it's a good thing that people can use these apps even on the very old hardware that can't run newer versions of macOS. But on the other hand, the API is so old that it doesn't support any of the new technologies in macOS like Grand Central Dispatch, 64-bit, HiDPI, App Nap... I personally can't wait for Apple to remove this API entirely so developers can finally start thinking of transitioning their apps to Cocoa

 

[Cougarcat]

Still present in High Sierra. Can't believe they supported it for so long. I think that's the only major API that hasn't really changed since Leopard which means all apps that built with Carbon are compatible with every macOS since Leopard. At one hand, it's a good thing that people can use these apps even on the very old hardware that can't run newer versions of macOS. But on the other hand, the API is so old that it doesn't support any of the new technologies in macOS like Grand Central Dispatch, 64-bit, HiDPI, App Nap... I personally can't wait for Apple to remove this API entirely so developers can finally start thinking of transitioning their apps to Cocoa

I imagine it'll die in 2019 when Apple kills 32-bit apps. They can do it all in one go.

 

[Aigex0ah]

I guess we now (more or less) have the answer:

Q4 2017 macOS 10.13 — Last version to run 32-bit apps “without compromise.”

Q4 2018 macOS 10.14 — Apple will make you jump through hoops to run 32-bit apps. Maybe it's just clicking through a scary warning, maybe it's having to download and install extra stuff, who knows?

Q4 2019 macOS 10.15 — 32-bit apps (including of course, all Carbon apps) no longer functional.

<https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=06282017a>

 

[zorinlynx]

I personally can't wait for Apple to remove this API entirely so developers can finally start thinking of transitioning their apps to Cocoa

One nice thing about MacOS is that Apple is very conservative about killing off old technologies and APIs.

There's a lot of applications that people still use out there that will never be updated because the developer or company has moved on. Every time an API is killed off, those apps that use it die.

APIs shouldn't be removed unless there's a very good reason or benefit to removing them. You don't have to use apps that require old APIs if you don't want to. Stop wishing inconveniences on others.