Will people be reselling iPad 3's for $$$?

[mowbr4]

It is possible also that they really didn't sell out.. there was just a limit as to when you could order that it arrives by the 16th from China

Very true. I was just saying that I don't think the ones that are coming the 19th or w/e can be sold for a profit. Maybe i'm wrong though...

 

[applesith]

I am no lawyer, but are you sure about...seems a bit of conspiracy is taking place, especially in large scale operations...the legal act of buy and selling these consumer goods might be compromised by the conspiracy to commit tax fraud...you can't use legal means to accomplish an illegal result.....if it can be proven that the ultimate intended outcome was tax-free profit, then the whole act/operation would be illegal...

Obviously.

 

[drb1992]

Very true. I was just saying that I don't think the ones that are coming the 19th or w/e can be sold for a profit. Maybe i'm wrong though...

I doubt ones coming in on the 16th could be sold for a profit or much of a profit either. Until there is a week+ wait time for shipments, I doubt anyone will be able to make much money off the new iPad.

 

[mwulf67]

Not reporting income is an offense completely separate from the activity that earned you that income, even if you intended all along not to report that income.

In other words, conspiring to commit tax evasion doesn't render illegal the act itself that earned you the income you didn't plan to report.

I disagree...the overt act is the buy and selling of these goods...you can not commit a legal overt act in the commission of an illegal conspiracy...if the intend illegal outcome is tax fraud, anything that gets you to that outcome is illegal under a conspiracy charge...yes, on its own buy and selling these goods maybe be perfectly legal, doing so with the knowing intent to commit tax fraud is not...

----------

Obviously.

Yeah, but I do watch a lot of Law and Order...

 

[danistyping]

I got 3....

Ordered two white 32gb wifis. Then ordered 1 64 gb black wifi.


I'm thinking flip the two whites and keep the black? Maybe flip a white and a black, keep a white. We'll see what kind of profit margin there is.


Definitely don't feel bad about this at all, btw. There's a market for it. Come on people, this is America, where we outsmart each other and step on those below us for money! Yeah, capitalism!

 

[Denny24]

China's apple store isn't taking iPad pre-orders yet and the Hong Kong store says shipping currently unavailable. I'm assuming there will be chinese buyers still buying iPads and shipping them to China.

 

[fridgeymonster3]

Tax fraud is basically when a person knowingly and intentionally (a) does not file a tax return with the intent to evade state or federal tax laws or (b) falsifies their tax return with the intent to defraud either the state or federal tax system. The Supreme Court in Cheeks v. U.S. held that a good-faith misunderstanding of the law or a good-faith belief that one is not violating the law negates the willful intent part of tax fraud. I'm sure there are many people re-selling that honestly do not know they need to report the profit they make from re-selling the iPad (remember its only profit above the original purchase price that needs to be reported). If that is the case, and somehow the IRS found out a person didn't report iPad re-sale profit, then they'd just have to file an addendum, pay the additional tax, and most likely any interest the government charged you.

Lastly, concerning foreign companies that buy iPad launch day stock and sell overseas, those companies have met their tax burden in the US. They paid the state sales tax where applicable and then sold for profit overseas. The tax law that would apply would be the country where the iPad was resold.

 

[mwulf67]

Tax fraud is basically when a person knowingly and intentionally (a) does not file a tax return with the intent to evade state or federal tax laws or (b) falsifies their tax return with the intent to defraud either the state or federal tax system. The Supreme Court in Cheeks v. U.S. held that a good-faith misunderstanding of the law or a good-faith belief that one is not violating the law negates the willful intent part of tax fraud. I'm sure there are many people re-selling that honestly do not know they need to report the profit they make from re-selling the iPad (remember its only profit above the original purchase price that needs to be reported). If that is the case, and somehow the IRS found out a person didn't report iPad re-sale profit, then they'd just have to file an addendum, pay the additional tax, and most likely any interest the government charged you.

Sorry, but have a hard time believing these resellers, especially serial resellers, don't know the tax implications of what they are doing....these people aren't dumb or uninformed, they just don't care...

 

[Freakazoid84]

I would like to say one thing to the people in this thread that have taken the moral superiority route to the individual resellers.

You realize, that when you buy ANYTHING online 'sales tax free', that you're as responsible to pay the sales tax yourself, individually, as these individual resellers are right? If you're buying something from amazon and never paying the tax, you're no different than the resellers who are skating past the tax code.

 

[Mshilling]

I got 3....
I'm thinking flip the two whites and keep the black? Maybe flip a white and a black, keep a white. We'll see what kind of profit margin there is.

I think the profit margin on whites will be higher now. If this were 1937, I'd say the opposite. Wait...what were we talking about again?

 

[Cutwolf]

I disagree...the overt act is the buy and selling of these goods...you can not commit a legal overt act in the commission of an illegal conspiracy...if the intend illegal outcome is tax fraud, anything that gets you to that outcome is illegal under a conspiracy charge...yes, on its own buy and selling these goods maybe be perfectly legal, doing so with the knowing intent to commit tax fraud is not...

----------



Yeah, but I do watch a lot of Law and Order...

Disagreeing doesn't change the law.

If I intend to sell the iPad and not declare it as income, selling the iPad doesn't suddenly become illegal; not declaring the income would be illegal.

Even conspiring to sell the iPad without paying taxes doesn't make selling the iPad illegal. The illegal act here is the conspiracy to commit tax fraud, not selling the iPad.

It might be semantics at this point, but reselling an iPad is always going to be legal in and of itself, no matter what.

To make the example more clear, if you intend to sell the iPad to raise money to hire a hitman, selling the iPad isn't made illegal because of your reason for selling it.

 

[mwulf67]

I would like to say one thing to the people in this thread that have taken the moral superiority route to the individual resellers.

You realize, that when you buy ANYTHING online 'sales tax free', that you're as responsible to pay the sales tax yourself, individually, as these individual resellers are right? If you're buying something from amazon and never paying the tax, you're no different than the resellers who are skating past the tax code.

True, yet, you realize, I passed moral judgment on these resellers LONG before this tax issue came up and that it has nothing really to do with why are consider such behavior wrong and "scum-like"...

 

[Cutwolf]

Tax fraud is basically when a person knowingly and intentionally (a) does not file a tax return with the intent to evade state or federal tax laws or (b) falsifies their tax return with the intent to defraud either the state or federal tax system. The Supreme Court in Cheeks v. U.S. held that a good-faith misunderstanding of the law or a good-faith belief that one is not violating the law negates the willful intent part of tax fraud. I'm sure there are many people re-selling that honestly do not know they need to report the profit they make from re-selling the iPad (remember its only profit above the original purchase price that needs to be reported). If that is the case, and somehow the IRS found out a person didn't report iPad re-sale profit, then they'd just have to file an addendum, pay the additional tax, and most likely any interest the government charged you.

Lastly, concerning foreign companies that buy iPad launch day stock and sell overseas, those companies have met their tax burden in the US. They paid the state sales tax where applicable and then sold for profit overseas. The tax law that would apply would be the country where the iPad was resold.

I disagree...the overt act is the buy and selling of these goods...you can not commit a legal overt act in the commission of an illegal conspiracy...if the intend illegal outcome is tax fraud, anything that gets you to that outcome is illegal under a conspiracy charge...yes, on its own buy and selling these goods maybe be perfectly legal, doing so with the knowing intent to commit tax fraud is not...

----------



Yeah, but I do watch a lot of Law and Order...

Since you've all piqued my curiosity on this front, I was thinking about this more.

Since there must be an overt act in order to establish any conspiracy charge, I'd argue that even if the iPad reseller intended to defraud the US of the tax on the profits earned from the iPad sale, selling the iPad is not an overt act toward the defrauding. Something has to be done after that -- with the money, with tax returns, etc -- that would give you an overt act toward defrauding.

 

[fridgeymonster3]

Sorry, but have a hard time believing these resellers, especially serial resellers, don't know the tax implications of what they are doing....these people aren't dumb or uninformed, they just don't care...

How do you know resellers aren't declaring the profit they make as income? Do you have facts or statistics to back up your claim that "these people...just don't care?"

 

[Freakazoid84]

Since you've all piqued my curiosity on this front, I was thinking about this more.

Since there must be an overt act in order to establish any conspiracy charge, I'd argue that even if the iPad reseller intended to defraud the US of the tax on the profits earned from the iPad sale, selling the iPad is not an overt act toward the defrauding. Something has to be done after that -- with the money, with tax returns, etc -- that would give you an overt act toward defrauding.

Correct, this is the same thing as when you buy something online *OR BUY ANYTHING USED*. The act of purchasing is not wrong, it's what you do (or don't do) with it that is illegal

----------

True, yet, you realize, I passed moral judgment on these resellers LONG before this tax issue came up and that it has nothing really to do with why are consider such behavior wrong and "scum-like"...

If I'm understanding your critique correctly, then anyone who plays any middle man role is scum, are they not according to you?

Is it better if the iPad scalpers were registered businesses?

 

[fridgeymonster3]

Since you've all piqued my curiosity on this front, I was thinking about this more.

Since there must be an overt act in order to establish any conspiracy charge, I'd argue that even if the iPad reseller intended to defraud the US of the tax on the profits earned from the iPad sale, selling the iPad is not an overt act toward the defrauding. Something has to be done after that -- with the money, with tax returns, etc -- that would give you an overt act toward defrauding.

18 U.S.C. § 371 : US Code - Section 371

"If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense
against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any
agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of
such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy,
each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
five years, or both."

I've bolded and underlined the portions that matter. I agree that selling an iPad would not count as "an act to effect the object of the conspiracy." A conspiracy can be punishable whether or not the agreed-upon offense ever occurred, but the sole act to effect the object of the conspiracy, selling an iPad, is legal.

 

[mwulf67]

Disagreeing doesn't change the law.

If I intend to sell the iPad and not declare it as income, selling the iPad doesn't suddenly become illegal; not declaring the income would be illegal.

Even conspiring to sell the iPad without paying taxes doesn't make selling the iPad illegal. The illegal act here is the conspiracy to commit tax fraud, not selling the iPad.

It might be semantics at this point, but reselling an iPad is always going to be legal in and of itself, no matter what.

To make the example more clear, if you intend to sell the iPad to raise money to hire a hitman, selling the iPad isn't made illegal because of your reason for selling it.

Dropping someone off at a hotel is not illegal either...

However, dropping some off a hotel with knowing intend that that person is to commit an act of prostitution does make that otherwise legal action, illegal...

The whole act becomes an illegal conspiracy to commit prostitution...the driver's otherwise legal action becomes criminal behavior due to illegal outcome his action was part of and helped set motion...

A legal act to achieve an illegal outcome is often rendered illegal...

The correlation between selling a iPad and hiring a hitman is dubious at best...there are many ways to fund a hitman...

However, order to commit tax fraud as we are talking about, you MUST first selling something for a profit...without that first legal act, the illegal second act CAN NOT occur...one must follow the other; there is a direct and intimate correlation between the normally legal action and the intended illegal outcome...as a result, it makes much more legal sense to group the entire thing together as illegal behavior...

 

[bwrairen]

True, yet, you realize, I passed moral judgment on these resellers LONG before this tax issue came up and that it has nothing really to do with why are consider such behavior wrong and "scum-like"...

If turning a profit due to supply and demand is "immoral", then I guess I am. I have been flipping Apple products on CL and eBay for years. Sold about 40 iPads the first 3 weeks of the iPad 2 launch. Made $150-200 on each of them. Didn't violate a single law. I guess I'm just unscrupulous in your eyes. I think I'll sleep ok tonight.

 

[mwulf67]

18 U.S.C. § 371 : US Code - Section 371

"If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense
against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any
agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of
such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy,
each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
five years, or both."

I've bolded and underlined the portions that matter. I agree that selling an iPad would not count as "an act to effect the object of the conspiracy." A conspiracy can be punishable whether or not the agreed-upon offense ever occurred, but the sole act to effect the object of the conspiracy, selling an iPad, is legal.

If the object of the conspiracy is to commit tax fraud by not reporting the gains from the sale of X, how can selling X not be an act to effect the object of the conspiracy....in other words, how to you commit tax fraud thought the non-discloser to sales profit without first making those sales? No sales, no fraud....

It doesn't matter the act to effect the object of the conspiracy is legal or not...that's why they use the term "any" to describe the act...

----------

How do you know resellers aren't declaring the profit they make as income? Do you have facts or statistics to back up your claim that "these people...just don't care?"

lol, facts, statistics...no...do I really need them?

There are appears to several resellers responding in this thread...I guess we could just asked them....

 

[fridgeymonster3]

Dropping someone off at a hotel is not illegal either...

However, dropping some off a hotel with knowing intend that that person is to commit an act of prostitution does make that otherwise legal action, illegal...

The whole act becomes an illegal conspiracy to commit prostitution...the driver's otherwise legal action becomes criminal behavior due to illegal outcome his action was part of and helped set motion...

A legal act to achieve an illegal outcome is often rendered illegal...

The correlation between selling a iPad and hiring a hitman is dubious at best...there are many ways to fund a hitman...

However, order to commit tax fraud as we are talking about, you MUST first selling something for a profit...without that first legal act, the illegal second act CAN NOT occur...one must follow the other; there is a direct and intimate correlation between the normally legal action and the intended illegal outcome...as a result, it makes much more legal sense to group the entire thing together as illegal behavior...

Dropping a prostitute off at a hotel, even knowing that prostitute is going to illegally have sex for money, doesn't prove a conspiracy. A conspiracy is a partnership in criminal purposes. A Taxi driver who picks up and drops off a prostitute at hotels hasn't entered into a conspiracy. Just knowing the person is a prostitute doesn't mean he has willingly entered into a partnership.

A conspiracy has to be entered into with a criminal purpose to further an agreed-upon offense. Almost certainly, the agreed upon purpose of multiple resellers is to make a PROFIT on the iPad, not commit tax fraud!!

Conspiracy really depends on the statute. The federal statute is above. You can argue all you want that selling an iPad is any act towards the commission of tax fraud, in reality a judge would laugh at a prosecutor that tried to bring such charges.

Here in PA, a person is guilty of criminal conspiracy if with the intent of promoting or facilitating its commission he: (1) agrees with others that at least one of them will engage in conduct which constitutes such crime, attempt, or solicitation to commit such crime; or (2) agrees to aid such other person(s) in the planning or commission of such crime, attempt or solicitation to commit such crime.

Please tell me how a reseller is a conspirator under federal or PA law.

 

[krazyfalcon]

Dropping someone off at a hotel is not illegal either...

However, dropping some off a hotel with knowing intend that that person is to commit an act of prostitution does make that otherwise legal action, illegal...

The whole act becomes an illegal conspiracy to commit prostitution...the driver's otherwise legal action becomes criminal behavior due to illegal outcome his action was part of and helped set motion...

A legal act to achieve an illegal outcome is often rendered illegal...

The correlation between selling a iPad and hiring a hitman is dubious at best...there are many ways to fund a hitman...

However, order to commit tax fraud as we are talking about, you MUST first selling something for a profit...without that first legal act, the illegal second act CAN NOT occur...one must follow the other; there is a direct and intimate correlation between the normally legal action and the intended illegal outcome...as a result, it makes much more legal sense to group the entire thing together as illegal behavior...

I don't think you're completely understanding what cutwolf is trying to say.

Buying the iPad is one act. Selling it for profit is another. Using the money to commit a crime is a third. By your logic, even buying the iPad should be illegal because it's a way of making a profit by selling the iPad. You're connecting two different activities that shouldn't be connected.

In your example, if the driver (the original service provider or seller, for example, Apple) knowingly sells their service (dropping off the prositute or selling the iPad) that they know will end up being used for committing a crime, that means they are an accessory. IF the driver unknowingly drops of the prostitute he's not going to be charged for any crime.

 

[mwulf67]

If turning a profit due to supply and demand is "immoral", then I guess I am. I have been flipping Apple products on CL and eBay for years. Sold about 40 iPads the first 3 weeks of the iPad 2 launch. Made $150-200 on each of them. Didn't violate a single law. I guess I'm just unscrupulous in your eyes. I think I'll sleep ok tonight.

No, you are turning a profit from speculation, hoarding and price gouging...you corrupt the normal supply and demand by being a parasitic, unnecessary middleman....

 

[fridgeymonster3]

If the object of the conspiracy is to commit tax fraud by not reporting the gains from the sale of X, how can selling X not be an act to effect the object of the conspiracy....in other words, how to you commit tax fraud thought the non-discloser to sales profit without first making those sales?

What you are saying is not the law in the United States. I am in the legal profession and explaining tax fraud and conspiracy to you. You can choose to ignore me or disagree with me, but all I am doing is explaining what the law actually is.

 

[MS2083]

Yes, mostly everyone who purchases 2 iPad models will be!!! I pre-ordered 2 White 32GB Wifi models, and will be selling one of them at a Premium on Craigslist...

 

[uslic001]

more than a couple of hundred dollars more on eBay

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9225077/Apple_runs_out_of_new_iPads_for_Friday_delivery

The shortages have again created opportunities for resellers who claim they will have the tablet next week.
On eBay, for example, prices for a 16GB Wi-Fi third-generation iPad run as high as $1,200, a 140% markup over that model's list price of $499, while 64GB 4G tablets are priced as high as $2,799, or 238% above the $829 list price.