Will rMBP 13'' ever have discrete graphics? [RANT]

[moxxey]

Was going to get the rMBP 13 but no discrete graphics is BS. Currently my 2009 MacBook pro has better graphics than a 2012 machine! That is nuts, what was apple thinking?

Call this a hunch, but I'd hazard a guess that Apple have a little more experience of knowing how to build a 13" retina MBP than you do (particularly after you've proved you can't even write a post correctly).

No disrespect, but don't you think Apple spent considerable time figuring out if they could get discrete graphics in to the 13"? My assumption is that they simply couldn't add discrete *and* keep it running cool.

Besides, you don't need discrete for most tasks. I'd say for 85% of my 15" rMBP use, integrated graphics is in action. The system only switches to discrete (for me) when editing images in Photoshop or apps that require core graphics. However, I bet the switch isn't essential - LittleSnapper doesn't *need* discrete to run, even though discrete is switched on. Indeed, I spoke with the developers about this and they are looking at a way around this switch as they agree it's not required.

So, add discrete to your 13" rMBP and there's likely to be a pay-off and Apple decided against this. They'd rather have a longer battery and a cooler machine and I think most users would agree.

 

[Erasmus]

The 13" MBP will never* have a discrete graphics chip.

Close thread??? No???

Now that the MacBook doesn't exist anymore, the 13" MBP is Apple's entry level, consumer laptop. Target market: "I want a cheap(ish) notebook to check Google (because Google IS the internet) and watch some movies! I don't know what a discreet graphics card, or what an Envidiar is!" So why would Apple put a discrete graphics chip in there, when it adds unnecessary weight and volume for the target market?

So, if you want something to play games on, get a 15" MBP. Or something like a HP Envy. It's not hard.

* Never is an approximation of Extremely Unlikely within 5 years.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

The 13" MBP will never* have a discrete graphics chip.

Close thread??? No???

Now that the MacBook doesn't exist anymore, the 13" MBP is Apple's entry level, consumer laptop. Target market: "I want a cheap(ish) notebook to check Google (because Google IS the internet) and watch some movies! I don't know what a discreet graphics card, or what an Envidiar is!" So why would Apple put a discrete graphics chip in there, when it adds unnecessary weight and volume for the target market?

So, if you want something to play games on, get a 15" MBP. Or something like a HP Envy. It's not hard.

* Never is an approximation of Extremely Unlikely within 5 years.

While I agree with you, completely, it really shows just how greedy Apple is: A dGPU adds less than $100 to the cost of a computer. Meanwhile, many other $1000 laptops have a dGPU as standard. The fact that Apple doesn't see a need to add a dGPU just shows that Apple's target is computer illiterate and willing to be ripped off, and worse, that Apple is willing to so shamelessly rip people off.

 

[iScreamSanWitch]

While I agree with you, completely, it really shows just how greedy Apple is: A dGPU adds less than $100 to the cost of a computer. Meanwhile, many other $1000 laptops have a dGPU as standard. The fact that Apple doesn't see a need to add a dGPU just shows that Apple's target is computer illiterate and willing to be ripped off, and worse, that Apple is willing to so shamelessly rip people off.

Or that we're just NOT interested in gaming on our Mac machines..

 

[whitedragon101]

Was going to get the rMBP 13 but no discrete graphics is BS . That is nuts, what was apple thinking?

I can see where you are coming from. I agree it doesn't really cut it to say oh I don't need a discrete GPU or I don't play games. However, Erasmus is probably right most people buying a 13" MBP couldn't tell you what was inside it if you put a gun to their head.

When you look at the benchmarks
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-4000.69168.0.html
Intel HD 4000 does look pretty woeful. But look closely further down and you'll see

Crysis 2 Medium Detail = 27fps
Call of Duty Black Ops Medium Detail = 30fps
Starcraft 2 Medium Detail = 25fps

Those are current gen games at playable (if not totally fluid) frame rates on medium. The numbers are not great but not too bad for a 13" notebook. However, I think Apple are hoping the shinyness of a Retina screen and the speed of an SSD will draw the consumers attention until Haswell.

Haswell will make everything ok if it delivers its promised 2x performance increase. That will give the 13" decent graphics for its size.

 

[Acronyc]

Or that we're just NOT interested in gaming on our Mac machines..

I don't believe it's accurate to assume that all Mac users are not interested in gaming. There are those of us who love Macs, OS X, and also some gaming, and I don't believe these users should be discounted. A 13" rMBP with a discrete GPU would probably be just the thing many of these users are looking for, as it would be the perfect combination of form factor, power (CPU and GPU), and OS of choice.

While I didn't expect it, I was also hoping for a discrete GPU in the 13" rMBP because I like to do some gaming every now and then but also want a small form factor computer than runs OS X. Unfortunately Apple didn't include a discrete GPU, but that's okay for me because it made my decision to pick up a 15" rMBP that much easier.

One thing I've noticed is the trend towards integrated GPUs in 13" computers is not something unique to Apple. As Intel's integrated GPUs get more powerful, a lot of manufacturers are just sticking with Intel for the 13" form factor. While I know there are some 13" computers available with discrete GPUs, I don't believe they are many and it seems that this will continue as Intel makes further advances in integrated GPUs.

Personally, I think that while it's unfortunate the 13" rMBP didn't get a discrete GPU, it's not at all surprising and it won't be an issue for the majority of users. You can do a lot on integrated GPUs anyway; my 2010 MBA still runs lots of games surprisingly well (for me; and by that I mean 25-30 FPS), even some newer ones like Mass Effect 3 and Borderlands 2. But if you want to have a Mac notebook that can handle more serious gaming, the 15" is your only choice.

 

[Stetrain]

While I agree with you, completely, it really shows just how greedy Apple is: A dGPU adds less than $100 to the cost of a computer. Meanwhile, many other $1000 laptops have a dGPU as standard. The fact that Apple doesn't see a need to add a dGPU just shows that Apple's target is computer illiterate and willing to be ripped off, and worse, that Apple is willing to so shamelessly rip people off.

Is it really about cost? What about cooling, battery, and space constraints?

The Vaio Z is a similar notebook in power and size. Even at its most expensive options it doesn't have an internal dedicated GPU, just an external dock thing.

There are some ultrabooks with low powered dedicated GPUs, but they also tend to use the low power ULV CPUs to keep the total heat load down.

 

[iScreamSanWitch]

I don't believe it's accurate to assume that all Mac users are not interested in gaming.

That's not what I was saying. It was a reply to rant about how apple is targeting this machine at illiterate iSheep that don't understand what they are getting, which is utter bull..

I can fully understand that people are frustrated about the GPU, but I knew perfectly well what I was buying and I couldn't care less about gaming on a 13 inch device. I have the Xbox, ps3 and 58 inch HDTV for that.

 

[jvpython]

Thanks but I already know about and used it. It's not that simple of an issue to solve, as sticking to integrated-only incurs a slew of caveats, especially when dealing with external monitors.

Well wouldn't your get that slew of caveats by being tuck with the integrated GPU in the 13"!?

 

[57004]

While I agree with you, completely, it really shows just how greedy Apple is: A dGPU adds less than $100 to the cost of a computer. Meanwhile, many other $1000 laptops have a dGPU as standard. The fact that Apple doesn't see a need to add a dGPU just shows that Apple's target is computer illiterate and willing to be ripped off, and worse, that Apple is willing to so shamelessly rip people off.

It doesn't just add cost to a computer, it adds power drain, size and weight (for batteries and cooling system) as well.

As IGPUs are getting better and better I wouldn't be surprised if Apple dropped the dGPUs on more models, such as the 15" as well. They're obsessed with thinness/lightness (not something I'd always value as much as them) and a powerful IGPU would play right into their cards. They've actually already done that before, the 2009 cheapest 15" model only had the 9400m integrated GPU (which for its time was well ahead of the IGP crop).

 

[Interstella5555]

Gaming.

And there's no way that integrated graphics can be better than discreet. Get real man, everyone knows.

Gaming on a 13" display? I don't care how care how good your graphics are, that dog won't hunt, Monsignor. Now integrated on a 13' display....that could work.

 

[throAU]

Doubt it. Intel are making great strides, and the 13" machine is never going to be a 3d powerhouse in that form factor, even if they fit some half-assed discrete GPU to it...

 

[BluAffiliate]

Or that we're just NOT interested in gaming on our Mac machines..

Speak for yourself. Some people are. Your arrogance is condescending.

 

[iScreamSanWitch]

Speak for yourself. Some people are. Your arrogance is condescending.

Read my other reply..

 

[CausticPuppy]

While I agree with you, completely, it really shows just how greedy Apple is: A dGPU adds less than $100 to the cost of a computer.

You think it's just a matter of the price of the GPU chip? How about the engineering of the rest of the laptop (heat dissipation, active cooling) in order to keep that dGPU from frying itself?

How many current 13" laptops can you think of that have discrete GPU's?

 

[Lifequest]

For goodness sakes the number of people who call discrete graphics- "discreet" graphics tick me off.

dis·crete [dih-skreet] Show IPA
adjective
1.
apart or detached from others; separate; distinct: six discrete parts.

dis·creet [dih-skreet] Show IPA
adjective
1.
judicious in one's conduct or speech, especially with regard to respecting privacy or maintaining silence about something of a delicate nature; prudent; circumspect.
i.e. being secretive.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

You think it's just a matter of the price of the GPU chip? How about the engineering of the rest of the laptop (heat dissipation, active cooling) in order to keep that dGPU from frying itself?

How many current 13" laptops can you think of that have discrete GPU's?

Dell, HP, and Lenovo all offer 13" laptops with a dGPU. They somehow manage it without overheating and only have 2 fans.

 

[mykelala01]

Wait for Haswell... Intel said that it has better integrated graphics. By that time rMBP 13 inch in its 2nd gen.

 

[CausticPuppy]

Dell, HP, and Lenovo all offer 13" laptops with a dGPU. They somehow manage it without overheating and only have 2 fans.

Huh. The smallest notebook I can find on Dell's site with a dGPU is 14". The 13-inchers all have HD4000 or even HD3000.

Lenovo and HP: same thing. In fact, Lenovo's site lets you conveniently filter just their 13" notebooks, and every single one has either an HD3000 or HD4000.


So what models are you referring to? Or are you just being generous with your definition of 13"?

 

[Mr MM]

Huh. The smallest notebook I can find on Dell's site with a dGPU is 14". The 13-inchers all have HD4000 or even HD3000.

What model are you referring to? Or are you just being generous with your definition of 13"?

I think the vostro 13 has one, but he forgot to say the vaio s13 as well and there are several other models, like the ones from fujitsu.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

I think the vostro 13 has one, but he forgot to say the vaio s13 as well and there are several other models, like the ones from fujitsu.

I was talking about the vostro. And while we're all talking about smallish notebooks that have a dGPU, I should also bring up this gem of a laptop

Its ATI Radeon 9550 card is way better than the 82845G chipset that was found in Intel computers at the time.

 

[iScreamSanWitch]

For goodness sakes the number of people who call discrete graphics- "discreet" graphics tick me off.

dis·crete [dih-skreet] Show IPA
adjective
1.
apart or detached from others; separate; distinct: six discrete parts.

dis·creet [dih-skreet] Show IPA
adjective
1.
judicious in one's conduct or speech, especially with regard to respecting privacy or maintaining silence about something of a delicate nature; prudent; circumspect.
i.e. being secretive.

With the amount of people saying 'should OF' and not knowing the difference between they're, their and there, this shouldn't come as a surprise AT ALL.

 

[dblissmn]

Hopefully, Intel will continue to improve their integrated graphics and then all Apple computers will have at least the option to use integrated graphics for everything, even external displays. It's a huge advantage on battery life, and at the rate Intel has been improving integrated it's possible to foresee the day when it does the job for the vast majority of circumstances. They say the next two upgrades, Haswell and Broadwell, will each deliver a 30 percent or more speed-up on integrated graphics.

 

[CausticPuppy]

I think the vostro 13 has one, but he forgot to say the vaio s13 as well and there are several other models, like the ones from fujitsu.

None of the current Vostro 13" machines have a dGPU... they all use intel integrated graphics. Some of the older ones (core2duo) did have a dGPU, back before intel had on-die graphics.

Vaio S-series 13" all use HD4000.

Sorry.

 

[bwhli]

While I agree with you, completely, it really shows just how greedy Apple is: A dGPU adds less than $100 to the cost of a computer. Meanwhile, many other $1000 laptops have a dGPU as standard. The fact that Apple doesn't see a need to add a dGPU just shows that Apple's target is computer illiterate and willing to be ripped off, and worse, that Apple is willing to so shamelessly rip people off.

Or maybe they couldn't fit it into the form factor without generating too much heat.