Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[CWallace]

Or they switch to Mobile CPUs and leave the iMac Pro as a separate high end model.

Comet Lake S has 65W options at 6, 8 and 10 cores with higher clock speeds than the 65W Comet Lake H mobile CPUs.
I expect Apple uses the K models (which are now 125W in Comet Lake) because of the higher clock speeds (especially Base Clock) - they certainly are not buying them because they can be overclocked. 😀

 

[craigrusse11]

both the 4k and 5k UltraFine monitors have lead times of 5 to 6 weeks. Suggests that the panel used in both these and iMacs is in short supply, or is no longer being made and to be replaced with something new? IF its a new panel, then this might also suggest a redesign of some sorts?. All signs, i think, point to an update to iMac sooner rather than later..

 

[iPadified]

Touche. Don't tempt Apple...they might... They have thick necks.

As for the iMac. The Pro monitor with bullet holes in the back? I'm in. Seems like good ventilation? Or cool aid design.

Either way. I'd drink it.

The Pro display is super cool and the kind of design leap and direction that mirrors what Apple are doing with iPads and will prob' do with 'phones' this year?

The iMac is the only 'silver' Mac at the moment? Even the mini has gone 'Pro' (sans decent GPU...) Grey.

My 24 inch iMac was like that design. There is alot of volume in the 27 inch iMac tear drop 'bulge.'

I'd be quite happy with a 3 cm depth. Let those components cool. The HP 32 incher with 2080 gpu has spec ambition and a 'thick enough' design for an AiO. I'm not looking at it from the sides. Just front onwards.

Dazzle us, Apple.

Azrael.

I think the stand is needed. I am a little tired of silver and gray aluminium to tell the truth. I really think such a XDR screen stand should be included so height can be adjusted, particularly for a 32 inch screen. Economy of scale might fix the $999.

Desktop parts will need a fair amount of depth to be cooled so even 3 cm might not it.

Whatever Apple do, do not drop the retina display experience for size of the screen. I have Thunderbolt display at work. The pixilation makes text difficult to read and it is not pleasant for the eyes.

 

[CWallace]

both the 4k and 5k UltraFine monitors have lead times of 5 to 6 weeks. Suggests that the panel used in both these and iMacs is in short supply, or is no longer being made and to be replaced with something new?

It could just be that LG's production capacity was deeply-impacted by COVID-19 and has yet to ramp back up - this could also explain the variability we have seen in iMac BTO shipping dates if they are seeing panel supply constraints.

 

[Patchwork]

I think you could be right. Jigsaw24, a UK Mac enterprise supplier, has the LG 27 inch ultra fine listed as supply constrained but do expect new deliveries this month.

 

[Icaras]

I do expect the first consumer ARM Mac to look like a 12" MacBook (with the new keyboard and two USB-C ports). When Apple is ready to release a desktop consumer ARM Mac, the iMac makes sense for that, but I expect it will be years away as I see the initial market driver being significantly better battery life than an Intel-powered device and that is irrelevant to a desktop.

If I recall, in our earlier discussion you believed with others that the first desktop Mac would most likely be a new Mac model, like a NUC?

 

[macmyworld]

Something is going on with the 27" iMac. Best Buy shows "Sold Out" on their website for all stock models. Other sites are also showing out of stock.

And the Apple store now shows out of stock with earliest receive date of May 27th for all models.

Sure smells like something new is coming. Please have standard SSDs!

 

[sublunar]

As to the idea of collapsing the iMac and iMac Pro lines into one using the iMac Pro case and cooling, it would be feasible and possible.

The W-Series Xeons are just the X-Series Core i9's with ECC RAM support so Apple could conceivably just smash the lines together - I expect ECC RAM is not really critical to most iMac Pro users, but it is what comes with Xeons. Intel did launch the 10th Generation (Cascade Lake) X-Series last fall at 10, 12, 14 and 18 cores and all are at 165W TDP and priced at less than half of what the W-Series were.

Apple is clearly seeing significant drops in NAND storage prices which is why they have been doubling their base SSD capacities. So I could see them dropping Fusion Drives in favor of 512GB SSD as the base level of storage. The iMac Pro case (including cooling) also likely costs more than the iMac, so I could see Apple raising the base price by at least $100 to cover all this. Maybe raise it $200 and bump base RAM from 8GB to 16GB. I mean people are going to erupt over the loss of upgradeable RAM so might as well raise the price, too. 😛

And when you consider adding 16GB of RAM and a 512GB SSD to an existing base model 27" iMac is $500, paying $200 for it is a deal. 😎

So where does this leave the iMac Pro? Perhaps as an option package instead of a separate model?

MCK says a 27" miniLED display is coming so what if it becomes a BTO upgrade option like the X-Series (12-18 core) CPUs? Same with 10GB Ethernet? And workstation-class GPUs?

So you have the "base" 27" iMac with the 10500 Core i5 CPU, 16GB of RAM and a 512GB SSD for $1999 compared to the current 8500 Core i5, 8GB of RAM and a 1TB Fusion Drive for $1799. I like to think that reasonable people would find that a reasonable deal.

From there you can add RAM up to 256GB, storage up to 4/8TB, faster Ethernet, workstation-class GPUs and miniLED display.

The iMac Pro isn't a great value at the low end up against the Comet Lake S CPUs. If Apple should choose to go with the iMac Pro cooling system but design a Comet Lake S system, compete with 125w thermal TD CPU SKUs to slide right into the iMac Pro case which was built to accommodate Xeon W21xx class 140w CPUs.

The iMac Pro uses RAID pairs of SSDs so low capacities are uneconomical even though the performance is very strong. There's a limit to how low cheap the Xeon setup can go despite cuts in the price of NAND, RAM and the Xeon CPUs.

If it was to stay in the Apple ecosystem it would have to be with the 12 Core version as base model - going beyond the capability of Comet Lake S to compete. The storage could be doubled by default and RAM could get a boost too.

Therefore there would be no price cut but enough spec bumps to make the $5k price tag relevant again.

The iMac Pro stays a sensible choice if the iMac redesign includes Comet Lake H for consolidation reasons.

A price increase to the standard iMac 27" would be inevitable with the the transition to all SSD, the T2 CPU would have to be added too so your price estimate might need to be extended up a bit. This would also open up space beneath it to include a 23" iMac.

The standard iMac 27" may need 1Tb of SSD storage though - it depends just how important the marketing department see the storage level in the 27" - and may also be a clue to why the 23" iMac may be needed.

Or they switch to Mobile CPUs and leave the iMac Pro as a separate high end model.

I already suggested a situation where Apple use Comet Lake H in a world where shrinking desktop unit sales give Apple the excuse they need to use the same processor in the iMac (following a full redesign), Mac mini, and MacBook Pro 16".

To add to this, Tiger Lake H comes next year potentially with Intel Xe onboard graphics. This might address GPU grunt and compute for the mini or allow extra cooling for the iMac.
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Something is going on with the 27" iMac. Best Buy shows "Sold Out" on their website for all stock models. Other sites are also showing out of stock.

And the Apple store now shows out of stock with earliest receive date of May 27th for all models.

Sure smells like something new is coming. Please have standard SSDs!

Third party retailers may be the better source for information at this time as it shows the retail channel is emptying but obviously a pinch of salt is required in this

Assuming no basic supply chain issues then Apple may well have been waiting for the channel to empty out a bit before dropping the iMac - possibly another reason why WWDC has been put back to late June.

The main Apple Store is showing pretty quick availability for 21.5" models while 27" models are weeks away.

 

[jseq]

Something is going on with the 27" iMac. Best Buy shows "Sold Out" on their website for all stock models. Other sites are also showing out of stock.

And the Apple store now shows out of stock with earliest receive date of May 27th for all models.

Sure smells like something new is coming. Please have standard SSDs!

I agree, just checked Portuguese Apple Store and the earliest deliver is May 27th for the 27 inch standard model!
21,5 inch deliver on May 12th, i believe this is a sign that something´s coming up soon, I hope. 😛

 

[CWallace]

If I recall, in our earlier discussion you believed with others that the first desktop Mac would most likely be a new Mac model, like a NUC?

Yes I have said as such since I do not believe the A14X will need active cooling at the initial rumored spec of 8 high-speed cores. But looking back at the PPC to Intel transition, Apple chose the MacBook Pro (15") and the iMac as the first models to make that transition (perhaps because they were the respective volume sellers?).

To be honest, after listening to the latest Accidental Tech Podcast this afternoon and reading some of the complaints on the lack of a cooling fan in the current MacBook Air in the MBA vs. MBP discussion thread I now think the first consumer ARM Mac could be the MacBook Air (on the assumption Apple will replace the 13" MBP with a 14" model with miniLED backlighting) as I cannot see the A14X having a TDP of more than (or even as much as) the 9W of the Ice Lake-Y series CPUs in the current MBA.

The iMac Pro isn't a great value at the low end up against the Comet Lake S CPUs.

It isn't against the current Coffee Lake Refresh ones, either, but there were are. 🙂

The iMac Pro uses RAID pairs of SSDs so low capacities are uneconomical even though the performance is very strong. There's a limit to how low cheap the Xeon setup can go despite cuts in the price of NAND, RAM and the Xeon CPUs.

If it was to stay in the Apple ecosystem it would have to be with the 12 Core version as base model - going beyond the capability of Comet Lake S to compete. The storage could be doubled by default and RAM could get a boost too.

Intel pretty much halved the prices of the W-2200 series compared to the W-2100 series - the 14-core dropped from almost $2000 to $1100. And 32GB of RAM and 1TB of SSD is still a solid entry point. The iMac Pro can also take hotter GPUs so the RX5700M should fit.

So I could see the 2020 iMac Pro launch at 14c/32GB/1TB/RX5700M/mLED at $4999. I believe such a model could hold it's own quite nicely against a $3999 2020 iMac with 10c/32GB/1TB/RX5500M.

The standard iMac 27" may need 1Tb of SSD storage though - it depends just how important the marketing department see the storage level in the 27" - and may also be a clue to why the 23" iMac may be needed.

For the entry-level model, upgrading from the 1TB FD to a 512GB SSD is a $300 increase. So they probably could do a $1999 6c/8GB/1TB entry-level model. And if they keep user-upgradeable RAM, then starting with 8GB is not any real penalty. If they drop user-upgradable RAM, then Apple could still do 8GB/1TB and make their $200 on the 16GB upgrade, but I expect the howling to be greater than if they did 16GB/512GB as the entry-level (since 1TB would likely only be a $100 upgrade from 512GB compared to the current $200). Or they halve their RAM upgrade prices, but so far they seem to have focused on more storage rather than more RAM.

I already suggested a situation where Apple use Comet Lake H in a world where shrinking desktop unit sales give Apple the excuse they need to use the same processor in the iMac (following a full redesign), Mac mini, and MacBook Pro 16".

Apple still need dedicated system boards for each model. And Comet Lake S is cheaper at MSRP than Comet Lake H for the same performance, so honestly I don't see Apple saving anything by only buying CL-H.

To add to this, Tiger Lake H comes next year potentially with Intel Xe onboard graphics. This might address GPU grunt and compute for the mini or allow extra cooling for the iMac.

Like Ice Lake, Tiger Lake will launch with only 9W and 25W 4c models, so at best it might power a MacBook Pro 13/14. The desktops (and more powerful portables) will still be stuck at 14nm with Rocket Lake. 🙄

 

[macpro2000]

Coming next week. Stay tuned for a leak tomorrow. (Not from me)

 

[lmddawson]

Coming next week. Stay tuned for a leak tomorrow. (Not from me)

Maybe from Prosser? Thanks!

 

[Icaras]

Something is going on with the 27" iMac. Best Buy shows "Sold Out" on their website for all stock models. Other sites are also showing out of stock.

And the Apple store now shows out of stock with earliest receive date of May 27th for all models.

Sure smells like something new is coming. Please have standard SSDs!

I’m looking at Best Buy right now and there are plenty of 27“ models in stock...🤔

 

[macmyworld]

I’m looking at Best Buy right now and there are plenty of 27“ models in stock...🤔

Not sure what you are looking at. All I see is “Sold Out”. My local stores (Minneapolis) are also out. Looked at MicroCenter and they just have a couple left.

 

[lakerchick4life]

Not sure what you are looking at. All I see is “Sold Out”. My local stores (Minneapolis) are also out. Looked at MicroCenter and they just have a couple left.

Same here..I had a few models saved on my account and they are all sold out..the 27 inches are gone

 

[AlexGraphicD]

Is it usullay the case when new iMacs are released to be a shortage of supplies and delays on orders? Does it happen always like that before updated models come out?

 

[sublunar]

I do not believe the A14X will need active cooling at the initial rumored spec of 8 high-speed cores. But looking back at the PPC to Intel transition, Apple chose the MacBook Pro (15") and the iMac as the first models to make that transition (perhaps because they were the respective volume sellers?).

To be honest, after listening to the latest Accidental Tech Podcast this afternoon and reading some of the complaints on the lack of a cooling fan in the current MacBook Air in the MBA vs. MBP discussion thread I now think the first consumer ARM Mac could be the MacBook Air (on the assumption Apple will replace the 13" MBP with a 14" model with miniLED backlighting) as I cannot see the A14X having a TDP of more than (or even as much as) the 9W of the Ice Lake-Y series CPUs in the current MBA.

They might have been relying on the Rosetta software to do the heavy lifting with Intel CPUs capable of doing a lot of heavy lifting. Going from Intel to ARM I think a translation layer won't be allowing emulation this time so they need developers to recode or recompile their popular apps. I could be wrong here but I think ARM Macs could, initially at least, be going for Mac App Store only software with Gatekeeper too.

It's already been leaked that the first ARM Mac is likely to be a 12" Macbook size product - something I'll call iBook so people don't assume it to be an Intel based product. Something with low expectations that gets developers to sit up and pay attention. They could well follow that up with an iMac and the 23" display could potentially be an ARM iMac rather than another Intel product for example.

Intel pretty much halved the prices of the W-2200 series compared to the W-2100 series - the 14-core dropped from almost $2000 to $1100. And 32GB of RAM and 1TB of SSD is still a solid entry point. The iMac Pro can also take hotter GPUs so the RX5700M should fit.

So I could see the 2020 iMac Pro launch at 14c/32GB/1TB/RX5700M/mLED at $4999. I believe such a model could hold it's own quite nicely against a $3999 2020 iMac with 10c/32GB/1TB/RX5500M.

Apple like to keep price points generally consistent. This is why they'll be a bit uneasy about how to pull off the iMac redesign if they have to add T2 and SSD to a full 27" iMac refresh.

The same will apply to the iMac Pro if they are keeping it. I wouldn't see them applying a top spec graphics card to a basic spec though. Upgrade the CPU, RAM, and NAND yes - but the 5700 is quite a high spec card with no upgrades to choose from. If you're adding mini LED to the iMac Pro you're slipping into 2021 and potentially allowing RDNA2 graphics into the system.

For the entry-level model, upgrading from the 1TB FD to a 512GB SSD is a $300 increase. So they probably could do a $1999 6c/8GB/1TB entry-level model. And if they keep user-upgradeable RAM, then starting with 8GB is not any real penalty. If they drop user-upgradable RAM, then Apple could still do 8GB/1TB and make their $200 on the 16GB upgrade, but I expect the howling to be greater than if they did 16GB/512GB as the entry-level (since 1TB would likely only be a $100 upgrade from 512GB compared to the current $200). Or they halve their RAM upgrade prices, but so far they seem to have focused on more storage rather than more RAM.

If you look at MacBook Pro 16 and the 28w MacBook Pro 13 you'll see that they went to 16Gb standard RAM for these while sticking with 8Gb for the budget MBP 13, MBA, and Mac mini. Following the logic on that I'd say that Apple would be increasing the RAM to 16Gb on the 27" iMac - moreso if the RAM is locked away.

I priced these Macs up previously with SSD and T2 and I can't see any way they can maintain the prices at the current level. This could be how Apple then leave a decent product to meet the old 27" iMac price points using the 23" panel - perhaps.

Apple still need dedicated system boards for each model. And Comet Lake S is cheaper at MSRP than Comet Lake H for the same performance, so honestly I don't see Apple saving anything by only buying CL-H.

They would need system boards regardless, the difference would be getting some decent volume discount through using the same CPU, plus perhaps a saving on development of drivers for the same chipset. H CPUs would be ideal for the Mini which seems to require BGA but admittedly it's a bit of a stretch for the iMac unless they are going for a thinner/lighter Air type plan.

Is it usullay the case when new iMacs are released to be a shortage of supplies and delays on orders? Does it happen always like that before updated models come out?

I think normally they'd plan out demand to ensure that the channel was mostly clear of models by the time they needed to refresh - so they minimise the number of models they have to discount - but demand might have fallen off a cliff thanks to recent events. I've seen occasions in the past when stocks have run low immediately prior to a refresh but equally Apple would just get rid of old models through the channel following a refresh.

 

[Icaras]

Not sure what you are looking at. All I see is “Sold Out”. My local stores (Minneapolis) are also out. Looked at MicroCenter and they just have a couple left.

Plenty of custom configs in stock from what I see. But you’re right about stock configs. I see they are pretty much sold out.

 

[CWallace]

Apple like to keep price points generally consistent. This is why they'll be a bit uneasy about how to pull off the iMac redesign if they have to add T2 and SSD to a full 27" iMac refresh.

I can't see the T2 being that expensive, to be honest. Apple should be able to eat that cost without issue.

If you look at MacBook Pro 16 and the 28w MacBook Pro 13 you'll see that they went to 16Gb standard RAM for these while sticking with 8Gb for the budget MBP 13, MBA, and Mac mini. Following the logic on that I'd say that Apple would be increasing the RAM to 16Gb on the 27" iMac - moreso if the RAM is locked away.

Fair enough. (See below)

The same will apply to the iMac Pro if they are keeping it. I wouldn't see them applying a top spec graphics card to a basic spec though. Upgrade the CPU, RAM, and NAND yes - but the 5700 is quite a high spec card with no upgrades to choose from. If you're adding mini LED to the iMac Pro you're slipping into 2021 and potentially allowing RDNA2 graphics into the system.

Okay, so they start with the RX5600M and make the RX5700M the BTO upgrade (both being Navi 10).

They could then keep iMac on Navi 14 like the MacBook Pro 16 offering the same two GPUs - RX5300M as standard and RX5500M as the BTO upgrade. On the plus side, these are 85w TDP vs the 150w TDP of the RX580 so that would give Apple headroom for the 125w TDP Comet Lake Sin the existing cooling system (and for those who want quiet, pair it with the 65W CL-S i5).


I think Apple doesn't want the iMac 5K to start at over $1999, but I think they can get away with dropping the $1799 model by significantly improving the $1999 model over what they are offering now. And I think that making the $1999 model offer a 10th Gen i5 (vs 8th Gen), 16GB of RAM (vs 8GB), 512GB of SSD (vs 1TB Fusion) and a W5300M GPU (vs 575X) would be a significant improvement as a base model.

 

[pldelisle]

But I was thinking - what if the A12x or A12z was also powering the first desktop ARM Mac and it was the forthcoming 23" 4k version to sit alongside the MacBook?

Not enough performant to really compete with actual Intel chips. Apple A chip needs to scale out more in frequency and number of cores.

The W-Series Xeons are just the X-Series Core i9's with ECC RAM support so Apple could conceivably just smash the lines together

what they could do is just tu use the same design, cooling system, etc, and propose a configuration in the 27-32 inch iMac using Xeon. Only the motherboard change. But Apple might prefer having a distinct product. anyway don‘t expect something new for the iMac Pro before November at best, RDNA2.0 being slotted around this time.

And please, stop referencing mobile GPUs for the iMac 😢 We need a 40 CU, 225w GPU in the iMac.

 

[macmyworld]

Plenty of custom configs in stock from what I see. But you’re right about stock configs. I see they are pretty much sold out.


View attachment 913633View attachment 913634

Those aren’t in stock. They are custom orders. See the delivery date, BestBuy does it that way.

 

[jetjaguar]

I just hope it is a worthy update and not just another spec bump

 

[Icaras]

Those aren’t in stock. They are custom orders. See the delivery date, BestBuy does it that way.

I see. Didn’t know that. Excellent news then.... I can now see why we’re thinking this week. Crossing fingers.

 

[CWallace]

And please, stop referencing mobile GPUs for the iMac 😢 We need a 40 CU, 225w GPU in the iMac.

Well when I mentioned using the W5700X (as found in the Mac Pro) I was told that it was too hot for an iMac Pro. But if Apple can offer it as a BTO option with, say, the W5600 as the base GPU, so much the better.

 

[gusping]

Well when I mentioned using the W5700X (as found in the Mac Pro) I was told that it was too hot for an iMac Pro. But if Apple can offer it as a BTO option with, say, the W5600 as the base GPU, so much the better.

If a desktop cant handle a desktop GPU, the form factor is wrong, simple. The current iMac design is absolute junk, and needs a complete overhaul. If I’m paying £2,500, i do not want a laptop GPU. The iMac should have a 5500/5600XT as in minimum with the option for a 5700XT.
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Coming next week. Stay tuned for a leak tomorrow. (Not from me)

Source?