Will we finally be able to play Pandora Radio while we check our email?

[kdarling]

If someone chooses to watch YouTube all day long, then their battery will also be exhausted. Or if they talk all day. Or message all day. Again, people understand this. Their usage is under their control, and they learn what can and can't be done.

Again, same for Pandora. You learn about how long you can let it go before it cuts into your battery.

The hypocrisy is that Apple _does_ support background tasks... the phone, SMS receiver, email push or fetch, and optionally the music player. And some of that is out of our control.

In particular, email push uses up battery in a way that's not under direct user control. but is an artifact of the particular network path it uses.

Ditto for background push notification. It'll almost certainly have to act like other pushes and use up bandwidth even while supposedly idle. (Anyone know details?)

As an aside, I'm astonished that so many people claim to own a phone that they think only total idiots use. Heck, even my 85 year old mother knows that if she leaves on an electric RV oven in the background and forgets, it'll use up battery.

Background also doesn't automatically mean loss of power. Some background tasks use almost no battery. They're waiting on a timer, or they're waiting on user input, or they're waiting for a system notification of a location change.

 

[theDUB]

As an aside, I'm astonished that so many people claim to own a phone that they think mostly total idiots use.

Fixed.

Heck, even my 85 year old mother knows that if she leaves on an electric RV oven in the background, it'll use up battery.

Does she have an iPhone?

Background also doesn't automatically mean loss of power. Some background tasks use almost no battery. They're waiting on a timer, or they're waiting on user input, or they're waiting for a system notification of a location change.

Yeah, but that wouldn't be true for an app such as Pandora, which is streaming data, running in the background.

 

[aok1975]

I am jailbroken and run pandora in the back ground, the difference in battery life is not that great, plus there is a place for me to charge my phone everywhere. If I see that my battery is running low I just turn pandora off, simple. Battery life is a stupid reason to deny us this most basic of functions. Push uses more battery than fetch, ok then why allow push at all.

 

[aok1975]

If someone chooses to watch YouTube all day long, then their battery will also be exhausted. Or if they talk all day. Or message all day. Again, people understand this. Their usage is under their control, and they learn what can and can't be done.

Again, same for Pandora. You learn about how long you can let it go before it cuts into your battery.

The hypocrisy is that Apple _does_ support background tasks... the phone, SMS receiver, email push or fetch, and optionally the music player. And some of that is out of our control.

In particular, email push uses up battery in a way that's not under direct user control. but is an artifact of the particular network path it uses.

Ditto for background push notification. It'll almost certainly have to act like other pushes and use up bandwidth even while supposedly idle. (Anyone know details?)

As an aside, I'm astonished that so many people claim to own a phone that they think only total idiots use. Heck, even my 85 year old mother knows that if she leaves on an electric RV oven in the background and forgets, it'll use up battery.

Background also doesn't automatically mean loss of power. Some background tasks use almost no battery. They're waiting on a timer, or they're waiting on user input, or they're waiting for a system notification of a location change.

You make sense MR.

 

[pavvento]

Am I naive or is the lack of background apps just a ruse to get us to upgrade to a newer iPhone with a better processor and battery life?

 

[theDUB]

Am I naive or is the lack of background apps just a muse to get us to upgrade to a newer iPhone with a better processor and battery life?

A ruse? Possibly.

 

[aok1975]

Am I naive or is the lack of background apps just a muse to get us to upgrade to a newer iPhone with a better processor and battery life?

you mean like the original iphone not being able to do MMS?

 

[kdarling]

One more thought:

A lot can depend on whether or not it's obvious that there _are_ background tasks.

The Palm Pre, for example, would probably tend to have a card shown for each app. That makes it almost idiot-simple to see what's running... and kill it when you want.

Even WM has some third party task managers that simply present the name and icon of running apps, and those are almost as easy to check and kill with.

So user awareness plays a big part. A phone's UI should make that easy.

 

[aok1975]

One more thought:

A lot can depend on whether or not it's obvious that there _are_ background tasks.

The Palm Pre, for example, would probably tend to have a card shown for each app. That makes it almost idiot-simple to see what's running... and kill it when you want.

Even WM has some third party task managers that simply present the name and icon of running apps, and those are almost as easy to check and kill with.

So user awareness plays a big part. A phone's UI should make that easy.

Good point.

 

[theDUB]

One more thought:

A lot can depend on whether or not it's obvious that there _are_ background tasks.

The Palm Pre, for example, would probably tend to have a card shown for each app. That makes it almost idiot-simple to see what's running... and kill it when you want.

Even WM has some third party task managers that simply present the name and icon of running apps, and those are almost as easy to check and kill with.

So user awareness plays a big part. A phone's UI should make that easy.

Very much agreed.

 

[9822679]

I am jailbroken and run pandora in the back ground, the difference in battery life is not that great, plus there is a place for me to charge my phone everywhere. If I see that my battery is running low I just turn pandora off, simple. Battery life is a stupid reason to deny us this most basic of functions. Push uses more battery than fetch, ok then why allow push at all.

why do you keep saying its a "basic function"

its not

apple would have to implement a way to let you know what apps are running in the background, an app swicther for active apps, etc. This isn't even bringing up the fact that running pandora in the background WILL SHORTEN your battery life


sure there is some demand for running background apps, but not nearly enough to shift apple's decision on the matter.

 

[pavvento]

A ruse? Possibly.

Good catch, thanks!

 

[pavvento]

you mean like the original iphone not being able to do MMS?

Exactly. If they are going to continue keeping the software upgradable for all phones they need to give people a reason to upgrade if they want to keep making money.

 

[kas23]

why do you keep saying its a "basic function"

its not

apple would have to implement a way to let you know what apps are running in the background, an app swicther for active apps, etc. This isn't even bringing up the fact that running pandora in the background WILL SHORTEN your battery life


sure there is some demand for running background apps, but not nearly enough to shift apple's decision on the matter.

I'm pretty sure he is saying "basic function" because every other smartphone OS can easily run programs/apps in the background. Mobile OS X is the only one commercially available that cannot. If other mobile OSs can figure it out, I'm sure Apple can. Perhaps he should have called it a "standard function" which would be more accurate.

 

[wfiphone]

the palm pre will let u play pandora in the background

don't believe me?

go to their website and watch the video

 

[aok1975]

Exactly. If they are going to continue keeping the software upgradable for all phones they need to give people a reason to upgrade if they want to keep making money.

How come no other company does this, only apple.

 

[skwoytek]

the palm pre will let u play pandora in the background

don't believe me?

go to their website and watch the video

The Pre may be a great device, but it still remains to be seen how it holds up under daily use.

Multiple activities

Keep multiple applications open and move easily between them—email, maps, photos, websites, whatever.3 Pre thinks of your applications as "activity cards," and lets you flip through them, move them around, or throw them off screen.

3. Number of applications and actual performance varies depending on applications used and actions performed.

 

[Goona]

Look if you want to run Pandora or whatever in the background, this phone is not for you, simple as that. If you did some actual research before getting this phone you would actually know what. Funny with the iphone not having background tasks, it still has sold 21 million units and has the industry's highest customer satisfaction. Damn all those clueless people at Apple, damn you.

 

[aok1975]

Look if you want to run Pandora or whatever in the background, this phone is not for you, simple as that. If you did some actual research before getting this phone you would actually know what. Funny with the iphone not having background tasks, it still has sold 21 million units and has the industry's highest customer satisfaction. Damn all those clueless people at Apple, damn you.

And im sure most people in this thread have the iphone, that doesnt mean they cant discuss the iphones negatives.

 

[fleshman03]

By "better" do you mean a phone the size a brick w/ a laptop battery in it?

By "better" I mean a better phone. An OS that will shut off power to aspects not in use... and yes, a better battery. Innovate. Make it thin and meet the other requirements. Don't simply say it can't be done. Work it in and let the user choose.

 

[Aaleck]

the palm pre will let u play pandora in the background

don't believe me?

go to their website and watch the video

Then get the pre?

 

[ArtursBoy]

This isn't a matter of if, its a matter of when. The team in charge of the iPhone's OS doesn't live in a bubble, and just like we do, they know what others are up to. They know what is being offered out there, I wouldn't be surprised if they find a way to sneak a feature like that into 3.0 when its officially released, even before the "new iPhone" is released.

 

[matttye]

+1. People are stupid.

You have to remember that the VAST, VAST majority of iPhone users are not 'enthusiasts' cruising mac forums. They are just regular folks who think the iPhone is cool.
Allowed back ground apps, they will leave 5 different apps running at the same time then go back to the apple store and bitch when their battery only lasts 1 hour.

Then perhaps Apple could offer an installer, similar to the iPhone software installer, that provides support for background tasks and any other features deemed to be "techy" - Joe public will probably not know such an installer exists but the option is there for those who want it.

 

[matttye]

This isn't a matter of if, its a matter of when. The team in charge of the iPhone's OS doesn't live in a bubble, and just like we do, they know what others are up to. They know what is being offered out there, I wouldn't be surprised if they find a way to sneak a feature like that into 3.0 when its officially released, even before the "new iPhone" is released.

It's not going to happen with 3.0.

Apple has been talking about these push notifications and the 20% effect on battery life for a long time, they're not going to give up on it now.

Was anyone else unimpressed with a 20% loss in battery life btw? I think that's quite bad considering the small number of features that these notifications are going to offer.

 

[Eso]

Was anyone else unimpressed with a 20% loss in battery life btw? I think that's quite bad considering the small number of features that these notifications are going to offer.

Absolutely. There was no context for their figures. First of all, they based their numbers on an app that constantly queries the network, so with it running in the background you'd expect your phone to last as long as if you were browsing Safari for 5 hours. They said nothing about how they were using the IM client either. Was it just that push was on, or were they receiving instant messages as well - if so, at what rate? Was the screen on the entire time for either background process or push?

It says nothing about apps running in the background that don't need network data. I just want my to-do application to be able to alert me when my tasks are due. I want it to be able to update its own icon badge (which keeps track of the number of tasks that are "due soon") without me having to open the app. Push is useless for this. Does Apple really expect me to believe that a to-do app running in the background is going to cut battery life by 80%?

All they really did is take the best case scenario for push notifications to make their figures for battery life look good. They have taken a lot of flack for push, somewhat amplified by their refusal to talk about what was going on with the service. Instead of using their time to find a better way to do background processes, they are stubbornly sticking with push to save face. It's as if they have invested a lot of resources that they would rather not see go to waste than to just concede a loss and move on.

I think push will end up just being a failure for a few reasons:

1) The majority of apps will not be able to benefit from a Push notification service. Any apps that do not fit a push notification model but try to incorporate push will be awkward and short-lived.

2) It reinforces the obtrusive pop-up notification system. The iPhone's system seemed fine a year ago when no one had heard about Android or the Pre - but with the way they both handle notifications the iPhone's pop-ups are looking positively stone-age.

3) The notifications are impractical. Considering an IM client, every message interrupts your work flow. You have to either dismiss the pop up entirely or close the current app and open the IM app. Once you finish you again have to go to the home screen and open your previous app. "Ah ha, but you can turn pop-up notifications off!", you say, but then all you get is a number on your icon. You'll have to periodically close your current app to check for new notifications on the home screen. Doesn't this negate the whole purpose of push in the first place? If you have to keep opening the app, what's the benefit over not just running it in the background?

Wouldn't it just be better to allow app multitasking so you can run the IM client and switch to another app so when you get an IM, you can bring up that app to quickly reply then easily go back to what you were doing? Running in the background the IM app could be a small daemon just checking for new messages (only to be completely downloaded while in the foreground). Apple's numbers show that push uses 1/4th of the battery power as compared to the same app continously running. Surely they could have used the past year to find a way to optimize an app's background daemons so they use 1/4 of the battery power instead.