Windows Windows 10 vs Windows 8.1 Gaming performance difference, thanks to low overhead of CPU.

[koyoot]

Difference between high overhead and low overhead in games, on AMD GPUs.

That is pretty amazing. 30% performance boost between Windows 10 and Windows 8.1. Metal will equal the performance of DirectX, so we can say, that Apple could be dead right with their 50% optimization of performance of hardware. Test is on R9 280X, which is in fact Tahiti GPU - the same core which is in Mac Pro's D700.


I would say: its completely mental.

 

[TallManNY]

Nice. But I really see no reason to jack FPS above a consistent 60. And really I've played games 30 FPS and had fun. This demo kind of stunk because there is no visible difference between watching something at 110 FPS versus 90 FPS. They need to find something visually taxing so that under Windows 8.1 the program is crushing the card and bringing it down to 20 FPS or something like that and then show a nice playable game at 30 FPS under Windows 10.

 

[antonis]

They need to find something visually taxing so that under Windows 8.1 the program is crushing the card and bringing it down to 20 FPS or something like that and then show a nice playable game at 30 FPS under Windows 10.

Agreed, and this is actually a great time for that as there are new games that are currently struggling even with the top-end GPUs. For example, a comparison on Witcher 3 or Batman Arkham Knight between W10 and W8.1 would be more interesting.

 

[Washac]

So can I assume better performance under Bootcamp and Parallels with Windows 10 ?

 

[Pakaku]

Agreed, and this is actually a great time for that as there are new games that are currently struggling even with the top-end GPUs. For example, a comparison on Witcher 3 or Batman Arkham Knight between W10 and W8.1 would be more interesting.

I was under the impression the Batman game suffered from piss-poor optimization from the start.

 

[antonis]

I was under the impression the Batman game suffered from piss-poor optimization from the start.

Yes, it does. Its performance is really awful and even despite that, the gameplay itself does not live up to the expectations.
However, as a very demanding game that heavily stresses the system, I think it would be ideal for the comparison.

I'd prefer to see Witcher 3 though.

 

[Fl0r!an]

That is pretty amazing. 30% performance boost between Windows 10 and Windows 8.1. Metal will equal the performance of DirectX, so we can say, that Apple could be dead right with their 50% optimization of performance of hardware.

Yep, but just keep in mind that these low-level APIs mainly improve performance in games which are limited by CPU (say CPU load is 100% while GPU load is 50%). This happens preferably on systems with high-end GPUs which are virtually non-existant in the Apple world. For most Macs I wouldn't expect that big performance jumps.

So can I assume better performance under Bootcamp and Parallels ?

Bootcamp yes (at least in the case mentioned above), Parallels no.

 

[koyoot]

I would like to point out, that so far, we have seen performance differences in ames using Gameworks, an Nvidia optimized platform. And in those games we see 25-40% difference in performance in 1080p resolution. In non-biased games we will see potentially even more performance. Whats worse for Nv GPUs, we dont see any significant addition to performance by going DX12. Generally NV is a bit screwed. Whole development community says that ev eryone will focus optimization on GCN GPUs because simply they are on every meaningful platform. Consoles, PC's, Apple. Thats where it lays.

 

[Cougarcat]

Nice. But I really see no reason to jack FPS above a consistent 60.

Above-60 FPS is important for VR and 120hz+ monitors.

 

[whooleytoo]

This demo kind of stunk because there is no visible difference between watching something at 110 FPS versus 90 FPS. They need to find something visually taxing so that under Windows 8.1 the program is crushing the card and bringing it down to 20 FPS or something like that and then show a nice playable game at 30 FPS under Windows 10.

Very true. I was watching for visual quality differences, but didn't notice any. Then I looked for choppiness in the frame rate, and didn't spot any. So the only difference is the text on the overlay, not the most impressive. Oh, and the fact that the guy with the higher frame rate crashes

 

[vkd]

Yep, but just keep in mind that these low-level APIs mainly improve performance in games which are limited by CPU (say CPU load is 100% while GPU load is 50%). This happens preferably on systems with high-end GPUs which are virtually non-existant in the Apple world. For most Macs I wouldn't expect that big performance jumps.


Bootcamp yes (at least in the case mentioned above), Parallels no.

Strange. There was me thinking that a GeForce GT 750M or an AMD Radeon R9 M290X as presently offered in iMacs, were quite high end. OK not cutting edge gaming cards but nevertheless decent GPUs.

And regarding VMs (Parallels, Fusion) I would expect Metal in OS 10.11 to provide noticeable graphics improvements. Perhaps not 100% of native but at least 94% judging from previous experience.

 

[Fl0r!an]

Strange. There was me thinking that a GeForce GT 750M or an AMD Radeon R9 M290X as presently offered in iMacs, were quite high end. OK not cutting edge gaming cards but nevertheless decent GPUs.

The GPUs in the rMBP (750M, M370X) are mainstream GPUs from some years ago, so no where near "high-end". But it's a notebook, so I wouldn't consider this a problem as "real" gaming notebooks are usually far too heavy, big, ugly and hot (that's nothing a Apple customer would want to buy).

The cards in the riMac (M290X/M295X) are what I'd call "upper mainstream". They are not bad, and in a usual gaming PC driving a 1080p display they would do quite well with recent games. Hooked up to a 5K display they are far away from "high-end". Just for comparison: High-End CPUs in a 2010 MacPro compared to 2013 MacPro and 5K iMac

 

[koyoot]

High-end in gaming world is 1080p. 4K and higher is so far complete minority with maybe 0.0001% of total number of gamers?

Even 1440p is the standard that is still getting more market share. Also, 81% of computer hardware, according to Steam stats is mid - end hardware, especially GPU's. And mid - end is not R9 270X or higher. Its R9 M370X, GTX 750, GTX 645, stuff like this.

4K and 5 K is still emerging, and in its roots.

 

[jerwin]

The GPUs in the rMBP (750M, M370X) are mainstream GPUs from some years ago, so no where near "high-end". But it's a notebook, so I wouldn't consider this a problem as "real" gaming notebooks are usually far too heavy, big, ugly and hot (that's nothing a Apple customer would want to buy).

The cards in the riMac (M290X/M295X) are what I'd call "upper mainstream". They are not bad, and in a usual gaming PC driving a 1080p display they would do quite well with recent games. Hooked up to a 5K display they are far away from "high-end". Just for comparison: High-End CPUs in a 2010 MacPro compared to 2013 MacPro and 5K iMac

Just for kicks, I ran furmark.

Not saying that's good or anything, but the scores reported by barefeats seem a bit low.

 

[puelocesar]

Difference between high overhead and low overhead in games, on AMD GPUs.

That is pretty amazing. 30% performance boost between Windows 10 and Windows 8.1. Metal will equal the performance of DirectX, so we can say, that Apple could be dead right with their 50% optimization of performance of hardware. Test is on R9 280X, which is in fact Tahiti GPU - the same core which is in Mac Pro's D700.


I would say: its completely mental.

Well, but in Real Life™ things aren't so beautiful: https://steamcommunity.com/app/292030/discussions/0/613958868354007633/

I was thinking in upgrading to Win10 on my bootcamp because Win8 interface is too confusing, but after reading that I kept Win8 installation. I only use windows for gaming, so..

edit:
Any idea on Intel performance on Windows 10? I have the Iris Pro 5200, and it's difficult to find benchmarks comparing Win10 performance

 

[koyoot]

You forgot that he is using Nvidia GPU which will not benefit from reduced overhead of the CPU in games. That is why he is getting worse, or the same performance numbers.

Metal, DirectX, Vulkan - those APIs are based on Mantle, from AMD. Everybody have decided to optimize their GPUs for it. Everybody, apart from Nvidia. You will not see any benefit of low-level overhead reduction on any Nvidia GPU, as is in its current state. Maybe future implementations(Pascal or any new GPU from Nvidia) will bring it, but I would not bet on that.

 

[Huntn]

I still have my 2011 MBP and would be willing to up grade Windows to 10 (currently W7) on it for a performance boost. When it's released, jump right in, or wait a while? I assume the latter.

 

[Renzatic]

I still have my 2011 MBP and would be willing to up grade Windows to 10 (currently W7) on it for a performance boost. When it's released, jump right in, or wait a while? I assume the latter.

I'd say wait about a month. I'm on the latest Windows Insider release, and I'm still getting the occasional explorer crash and weird start menu guffiness. It's a helluva lot smoother than it was during the 130 release, but with the RTM coming up in a couple of days, I don't think everything's going to be 100% before release.

 

[Huntn]

I'd say wait about a month. I'm on the latest Windows Insider release, and I'm still getting the occasional explorer crash and weird start menu guffiness. It's a helluva lot smoother than it was during the 130 release, but with the RTM coming up in a couple of days, I don't think everything's going to be 100% before release.

They still gonna be asking steep prices for a new Windows release? I assume so since that is their bread and butter. I wonder if it gulls them a bit that Apple gives away their OS for free and it's just as good if not better.

 

[Renzatic]

They still gonna be asking steep prices for a new Windows release? I assume so since that is their bread and butter. I wonder if it gulls them a bit that Apple gives away their OS for free and it's just as good if not better.

$199 for a Win10 Pro key, assuming you don't have 7 or 8 to upgrade for free from.

And you've more or less paid for your copy of OSX indirectly. None of these companies really give anything away for free. Even MS' free upgrade deal is likely offset by the fact they're expecting a lot of subs for Onedrive and 365, plus the fact they only make a small fraction of their Windows profits off store bought disc upgrades. They're not risking much, since the vast majority of their money is made off their OEMs when people buy new computers, but gain the advantage of getting everyone on a common platform, saving them potentially tons of money in the long run. And Apple? They likely subsidizes their OS upgrades through the price of their hardware.

Ain't no such thing as a really free lunch.

 

[jerwin]

You forgot that he is using Nvidia GPU which will not benefit from reduced overhead of the CPU in games. That is why he is getting worse, or the same performance numbers.

Metal, DirectX, Vulkan - those APIs are based on Mantle, from AMD. Everybody have decided to optimize their GPUs for it. Everybody, apart from Nvidia. You will not see any benefit of low-level overhead reduction on any Nvidia GPU, as is in its current state. Maybe future implementations(Pascal or any new GPU from Nvidia) will bring it, but I would not bet on that.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8962/the-directx-12-performance-preview-amd-nvidia-star-swarm/3

so nVidia owners may be in luck.

I'm just biding my time til Windows10 come out before I even consider bootcamp.

 

[Renzatic]

Nice! I didn't even know about Star Swarm, let alone that it had a stress test freely available. Looks like I finally get a chance to test out DX12 first hand on my machine.

edit: just ran it. This is what it gave me.

===========================================================
Oxide Games
Star Swarm Stress Test - ©2013
C:\Users\MRobe\Documents\Star Swarm\Output_15_07_08_0014.txt
Version 1.10
07/08/2015 00:14
===========================================================

== Hardware Configuration =================================
GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970
CPU: GenuineIntel
Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4590 CPU @ 3.30GHz
Physical Cores: 4
Logical Cores: 4
Physical Memory: 8444526592
Allocatable Memory: 140737488224256
===========================================================


== Configuration ==========================================
API: DirectX
Scenario: ScenarioAttract.csv
User Input: Disabled
Resolution: 1920x1080
Fullscreen: True
GameCore Update: 16.6 ms
Bloom Quality: High
PointLight Quality: High
ToneCurve Quality: High
Glare Overdraw: 16
Shading Samples: 64
Shade Quality: Mid
Deferred Contexts (D3D11): Disabled
Small Batch Optimized (Mantle): Enabled
Temporal AA Duration: 16
Temporal AA Time Slice: 2
Detailed Frame Info: Off
===========================================================


== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 17551

Average FPS: 48.75
Average Unit Count: 4401
Maximum Unit Count: 5774
Average Batches/MS: 925.46
Maximum Batches/MS: 2676.82
Average Batch Count: 20818
Maximum Batch Count: 119526
===========================================================

I'm assuming it's running DX12, considering the high frame rate. But it doesn't give me an option to choose between DX11 or 12, just DX, so I can't see how much better it runs relative.

 

[Huntn]

$199 for a Win10 Pro key, assuming you don't have 7 or 8 to upgrade for free from.

And you've more or less paid for your copy of OSX indirectly. None of these companies really give anything away for free. Even MS' free upgrade deal is likely offset by the fact they're expecting a lot of subs for Onedrive and 365, plus the fact they only make a small fraction of their Windows profits off store bought disc upgrades. They're not risking much, since the vast majority of their money is made off their OEMs when people buy new computers, but gain the advantage of getting everyone on a common platform, saving them potentially tons of money in the long run. And Apple? They likely subsidizes their OS upgrades through the price of their hardware.

Ain't no such thing as a really free lunch.

For anyone reading this and not familiar with me, my heart belongs to Apple. I'm into Windows for one reason... GAMES!!

One thing that has always annoyed me is the Windows OEM, bloatware included that the large PC manufacturers put on their hardware. It's disgusting.

Just to clarify from Windows 7 or 8, it's a free upgrade?
What did they do with Live Tiles? Besides the Registry, I can't stand Window's Tiles.

 

[koyoot]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8962/the-directx-12-performance-preview-amd-nvidia-star-swarm/3

so nVidia owners may be in luck.

I'm just biding my time til Windows10 come out before I even consider bootcamp.

Depends on the game, and scenario, really. However, Nvidia GPUs dont see any difference between DirectX11 and 12.
There are even those types of situations, where you see complete decrease in performance of a game under Windows 10, on Nvidia GPUs. It turns out the drivers are s..t, so far.

 

[antonis]

Just to clarify from Windows 7 or 8, it's a free upgrade?
What did they do with Live Tiles? Besides the Registry, I can't stand Window's Tiles.

Yes, W7 and W8 will have W10 as a free upgrade. Regarding tiles, W10 brings back the start menu, or something like that at least. When you press the start button, you won't shift on a tiles-only separated desktop, but a start menu with customizable tiles as well as the classic submenus from previous versions will pop up, traditionally, from the lower-left corner of the screen.

Personally, I really hate the idea of bringing back the old-fashioned menu model. Especially with a bunch of tiles crammed in it. Fortunately, though, you can switch to the W8 behavior.