Windows ARM laptops getting better

[LarTeROn]

Windows sucks. ARM on Windows has been particularly bad.
That seems to be improving lately with Surface 7, ASUS ProArt and Snapdragon X in general.
There's a lot more software coming out for Windows ARM recently, and there's still the compatibility layer.
Sometimes you get all this for nearly half the price, so you can get almost double for your money in some instances.

If anything, these ARM laptops can put pressure on Apple to stop the price gouging on ram & storage, but only if these 2 ecosystems are actually competing against each other and not differentiated by Apple choosing local AI privacy and Microsoft subsidising cost by tearing down privacy and selling the data.

This year's touchpads aren't too bad AFAIK, but I couldn't find an ARM one with a Sensel touchpad, reputed to be better than Apple.
You can disable tracking with Shutup10 in a couple of clicks.
I'm starting to think that a lot of the annoyances like this can be mitigated. Perhaps the fonts can be made prettier. Perhaps the idiosyncracities can be fixed just like I had to do when moving to MacOS.

Personally, I'm going to try dual booting and try to make it sufferable as an experiment.

What are your thoughts?

edit: Surface 7 touchpad is supposed to be as good as Apple.

 

[pshufd]

The main Apple tax is memory and storage and I don't see that changing, outside of maybe those third-party storage modules. But that's not an Apple thing - it's third-party driven.

My only use case for Windows is x86. I can do everything that I need to on macOS except for one program and I consider, from time to time, buying a second light laptop to run that one program. It's just really hard to justify bringing a second laptop with its own charging brick on trips. I don't really have a solution to this other than to live with the performance and battery life issue on my M1 Pro MacBook Pro or wait for my software vendor to make a native Apple Silicon port.

My ecosystem is still Apple and I rely heavily on iCloud so doing everything on Windows is not an option unless I can also run macOS on it efficiently.

 

[MBAir2010]

Windows sucks.

What are your thoughts?

I prefer Windows 10 over Sequoia but my MacBook Air over that Asus zenbook I used last year

 

[Madhatter32]

ARM is the future. Microsoft is committed to making it happen with its support and that is very important.

 

[pshufd]

ARM is the future. Microsoft is committed to making it happen with its support and that is very important.

If they were really committed to it, they'd drop x86 support like Apple did.

 

[LarTeROn]

The main Apple tax is memory and storage and I don't see that changing, outside of maybe those third-party storage modules. But that's not an Apple thing - it's third-party driven.

My only use case for Windows is x86. I can do everything that I need to on macOS except for one program and I consider, from time to time, buying a second light laptop to run that one program. It's just really hard to justify bringing a second laptop with its own charging brick on trips. I don't really have a solution to this other than to live with the performance and battery life issue on my M1 Pro MacBook Pro or wait for my software vendor to make a native Apple Silicon port.

My ecosystem is still Apple and I rely heavily on iCloud so doing everything on Windows is not an option unless I can also run macOS on it efficiently.

If MacOS hadn't improved at the OSX stage, I wouldn't be on Mac. I really prefer it to Windows because it gives me a cleaner experience without having to use Linux. It's a bit like having linux and Windows in one in terms of what it does for me. That's why I'm on it.

In addition,
My MBP works very well at 10 years old. It can do everything except M processor apps and AI. I rented a cloud system for compatibility, but I found turning it on and off made it impractical. However, you could leave your x86 at home and remotely connect?

If I want AI and M CPU apps I'll have to pay 1000% more than my current system to get the same amount of ram and storage. While I cringe at that, there's just something about Windows that make me cringe even more, even though the overall experience has gotten so much better. Things like the registry. The blocking of LTSC for non-businesses and the customer as the product, that kind of thing. But worst of all is that it just seem archaic and messy. I see things like the Windows Linux subsystem, alternatives to Brew and start to think that a lot of this mess can be dealt with, but then it just seems so messy; even messier than MacOS.

A Surface 7 is very good. I think it's Windows that is the main problem in that it didn't go through that painful upgrade overhaul as much like MacOS with OSX.

 

[pshufd]

In addition,
My MBP works very well at 10 years old. It can do everything except M processor apps and AI. I rented a cloud system for compatibility, but I found turning it on and off made it impractical. However, you could leave your x86 at home and remotely connect?

It's not practical as I run it native 4k at home. It's also graphically intensive and that won't work on a slow connection. One reason that I'd prefer a 4k MacBook over the odd-resolutions that they have now. A 17 inch Windows thin and light 4k laptop would be ideal. It does not need much CPU nor GPU - just x86 speed from 2020 or later. Even my 2015 MacBook Pro 15 running Windows is faster than my Mac Studio but the resolution on that is only 2,880 x 1,800.

An ideal solution would be something like an LG Gram 17 with a 4k display. Most Windows laptops in the thin and light category have moved away from 4k. I do not actually see any for sale.

It seems like they assume that you want to do some gaming if you're looking for a 4k display so the option is more common in gaming laptops or heavier laptops.

The HP Envy 17.3 is attractive but it's 5.5 pounds and that's an issue if carrying two laptops. They have a model with 64 GB of RAM and 2 TB SSD for under $1,600 right now. I could actually use something like this for what I do except I'd lose my iCloud programs which I run my life on. I suppose I could run iTunes on Windows to sync and backup my iPhone on the road. It's definitely something to think about. If I could run macOS in a virtual machine, then it would be manageable and I wouldn't need to carry my MacBook Pro around. The Envy only has a 55 whr battery and I don't know the battery life.

 

[AustinIllini]

If they were really committed to it, they'd drop x86 support like Apple did.

Different company with different motives. There are far too many companies using Windows and x86.

Apple was so far behind on gaming, for example, that it made no difference that they jumped to ARM. Who cares? That would be a monumental task for Windows.

 

[TSE]

I really want <12" screen, <2lbs laptops with ARM that get a realistic 8-12 hours of battery life. Think Apple's 12" MacBook or smaller.

 

[XboxEvolved]

Windows sucks. ARM on Windows has been particularly bad.
That seems to be improving lately with Surface 7, ASUS ProArt and Snapdragon X in general.
There's a lot more software coming out for Windows ARM recently, and there's still the compatibility layer.
Sometimes you get all this for nearly half the price, so you can get almost double for your money in some instances.

If anything, these ARM laptops can put pressure on Apple to stop the price gouging on ram & storage, but only if these 2 ecosystems are actually competing against each other and not differentiated by Apple choosing local AI privacy and Microsoft subsidising cost by tearing down privacy and selling the data.

This year's touchpads aren't too bad AFAIK, but I couldn't find an ARM one with a Sensel touchpad, reputed to be better than Apple.
You can disable tracking with Shutup10 in a couple of clicks.
I'm starting to think that a lot of the annoyances like this can be mitigated. Perhaps the fonts can be made prettier. Perhaps the idiosyncracities can be fixed just like I had to do when moving to MacOS.

Personally, I'm going to try dual booting and try to make it sufferable as an experiment.

What are your thoughts?

edit: Surface 7 touchpad is supposed to be as good as Apple.

Microsoft has several things going against them, one they still have not made the whole system truly ARM native, and they still have several compatibility issues that Macs generally had ironed out when it came to most apps that they made and third party. The biggest sacrifice of course was certain games, an issue I don't see Microsoft having as much if they actually concentrated more on it.

Inevitably, Microsoft will have to, as Qualcomm catches up. I don't think Qualcomm will ever fully close the gap with Apple Silicon, but they do have the advantage of being able to accept new storage, ram, and graphics in many models, but I do see most consumer PCs being closer to how Macs are in the future, and most are already anyways.

I personally think that by the time Qualcomm manages to catch up to Apple (say 2030-2035), Apple will have already been transitioning to a new instruction and chip set, likely one that they completely create in house, where it is similar to ARM, but just different enough they don't have to worry about paying out any licensing fees.

 

[LarTeROn]

If I could run macOS in a virtual machine, then it would be manageable and I wouldn't need to carry my MacBook Pro around.

https://checkout.macincloud.com/select
$50/month for dedicated machine? The shared ones are too slow due to sharing apparently.

 

[maflynn]

Snapdragon X in general.

Looks like the Snapdragon X has largely landed with a thud and in a surprising move (given Intel's woes) their lunar lake is largely superior to the snapdragon x and has no compatibility issues

Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite laptops suffer compatibility issues with many games — even Intel's integrated Arc Graphics is up to 3x faster

 

[pshufd]

Looks like the Snapdragon X has largely landed with a thud and in a surprising move (given Intel's woes) their lunar lake is largely superior to the snapdragon x and has no compatibility issues

Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite laptops suffer compatibility issues with many games — even Intel's integrated Arc Graphics is up to 3x faster

I'm really impressed with Lunar Lake and I wish that they made a desktop chip with it.

The problem with Lunar Lake, from Intel's perspective, is that fabbing at TSMC is expensive for them so they limited the number of performance cores so it's weak there. If they added four performance cores, then it would be a quite nice desktop chip and super-efficient. I think that Intel wants to do Panther Lake and everything else on their own fabs.

I think that Intel actually does better in idle power consumption compared to AMD. It might be the hybrid cores instead of the homogeneous performance cores that AMD currently uses.

 

[piccolamela]

I love my Lunar Lake based NUC. Shame this SoC generation seems to be a one off from Intel for thin and lights.
Super efficient performer for my use cases and even older triple AAA gaming with high settings or newer AAA's a bit reduced. Incredible if I compare it what was possible 5 years ago NUC and mobile device wise in performance, battery life and graphics - just a wonderful SoC.


As for ARM, I'm not throwing Qualcom under the bus just yet. I want to see their second gen hard- and software offerings for mobile and NUC devices first, when they are announced later this fall in Hawaii and probably released and fully unveiled at CES in January 2026.

Also very very interested in what Nvdia (with Mediathek) comes up with (Windows) ARM wise in 2026.

 

[pshufd]

I love my Lunar Lake based NUC. Shame this SoC generation seems to be a one off from Intel for thin and lights.
Super efficient performer for my use cases and even older triple AAA gaming with high settings or newer AAA's a bit reduced. Incredible if I compare it what was possible 5 years ago NUC and mobile device wise in performance, battery life and graphics - just a wonderful SoC.


As for ARM, I'm not throwing Qualcom under the bus just yet. I want to see their second gen hard- and software offerings for mobile and NUC devices first, when they are announced later this fall in Hawaii and probably released and fully unveiled at CES in January 2026.

Also very very interested in what Nvdia (with Mediathek) comes up with (Windows) ARM wise in 2026.

It's hard to see ARM going far for Microsoft because Microsoft is just hedging their bets with ARM. Apple has gone all in by ending support for x86 and making all new hardware products on ARM.

If I wanted a gaming, video-editing or professional laptop, I'd probably go with Ryzen AI 3xx or 14900HX. Qualcomm isn't playing in that space. If I want thin and light, I go Lunar Lake. I do hope that Intel does as good a job with Panther Lake. If they don't, then Qualcomm has an opening.

I am perfectly fine to go completely with macOS at some point because they are all-in and if my software runs. Until then, I'm running x86 Windows and also macOS.

If AMD can make products that cover enough of the range that Apple Silicon can, then they are still well within the game. Apple Silicon can do it all: great battery life at good performance and also great performance. AMD and Intel can do pieces of Apple Silicon's spectrum, but fortunately for them, the vast majority of people don't need all of the power of Apple Silicon so AMD and Intel don't have to have the high CPU scores but can compete in other ways.

 

[maflynn]

As for ARM, I'm not throwing Qualcom under the bus just yet.

I wouldn't either, but intel did them no favors with lunar lake, much of the advantages they were counting on, were wiped out with Lunar Lake. They also seemingly over promised and largely under delivered.

One that that annoyed me to no end, and its not just a Qualcomm thing, they used influencers to say how great their product is. In the video I included showed Linus Tech Tips, I used to subscribe/watch them but largely stopped long ago. Their inclusion kind of showed their willingness to hawk any product as long as you paid up. Linus himself is an investor in Framework, so of course LTT's coverage of that company is glowing but you also have to wonder about bias in other laptop reviews.

For Qualcomm to have a successor to their Snapdragon X chip, they need Microsoft to step up their game. The X86 emulation just isn't up to snuff and no matter how fast qualcomm can make their chips, it will be hamstrung by its inability to run all software.

I have no evidence of this, just a gut feeling, but I wonder now that x86 chips can be just as efficient as Apple Silicon, MS has cooled to the idea of ARM Windows. I think they have and we may see a slowdown in updates to arm windows and a decrease in it improving the OS on that arm platform

 

[maflynn]

I know gaming on ARM isn't really feasible, but I subscribe to this YTer and he did do a comparison on his review of ARM last year and how its changed/improved this year.

 

[KPOM]

For Qualcomm to have a successor to their Snapdragon X chip, they need Microsoft to step up their game. The X86 emulation just isn't up to snuff and no matter how fast qualcomm can make their chips, it will be hamstrung by its inability to run all software.

I have no evidence of this, just a gut feeling, but I wonder now that x86 chips can be just as efficient as Apple Silicon, MS has cooled to the idea of ARM Windows. I think they have and we may see a slowdown in updates to arm windows and a decrease in it improving the OS on that arm platform

Intel isn’t exactly stable. All Lunar Lake proved is that Intel designs on TSMC work about as efficiently as Qualcomm or Apple on TSMC. It wouldn’t surprise me if Microsoft continues to support ARM. After all, enterprise users don’t care about gaming, and few are running LLMs directly on devices. Microsoft’s “Rosetta” is good enough for business users, and Office 365 etc. are already fully native on ARM.

 

[maflynn]

Intel isn’t exactly stable.

Intel is stable, the question is, will they survive and the jury is still out on that. Cutting, selling laying off helps the bottom line look better but at some point you have to be profitable on your own. They need to turn the ship around before it sinks

All Lunar Lake proved is that Intel designs on TSMC work about as efficiently as Qualcomm or Apple

Lunar Lake diminished Qualcomm's snapdragon. It basically provided much of what the snapdragon offered, without any compatibility issues. Consumers want peace of mind. If their apps run on lunar lake with the same battery lifespan and performance, why buy something else. Intel still has brand recognization

It wouldn’t surprise me if Microsoft continues to support ARM.

No question, what's surprising is that MS has been trying to make a version of windows run on arm since 2012 and they've not made a lot of headway in compatibility or app performance

After all, enterprise users don’t care about gaming, and few are running LLMs directly on devices. Microsoft’s “Rosetta” is good enough for business users, and Office 365 etc. are already fully native on ARM.

Agreed, gaming is not a factor, but their apps are, I was unable to run my vpn with windows arm (in parallels) on my M1 MBP. I get my issues are not representative, but it shows how ill suited businesses and enterprise applicatins are for arm windows.

I called my help desk, and even the department that handles VPN and they just shrugged their shoulders saying it should work. Its not just games that have compatibility issues, and unlike games, not being able run some enterprise application will cost the business money and time

 

[salamanderjuice]

No question, what's surprising is that MS has been trying to make a version of windows run on arm since 2012 and they've not made a lot of headway in compatibility or app performance


Agreed, gaming is not a factor, but their apps are, I was unable to run my vpn with windows arm (in parallels) on my M1 MBP. I get my issues are not representative, but it shows how ill suited businesses and enterprise applicatins are for arm windows.

I called my help desk, and even the department that handles VPN and they just shrugged their shoulders saying it should work. Its not just games that have compatibility issues, and unlike games, not being able run some enterprise application will cost the business money and time

They haven't? Windows RT didn't run x86 or x64 apps at all. Even with a jailbroken device. Windows 10 on ARM added x86 compatibility, 11 added x64. They recently added support for AVX2 and other instructions ( IIRC Apple didn't bother with that either). Nor is the compatibility particularly slow, IME it's like ~60% of native, whereas Rosetta 2 is like ~70% and Apple added hardware features to the CPU for it. There has also been a pretty huge push since the Snapdragon Elite launch for native ARM64 Windows apps. It's a bit hard to check, but I also suspect a lot of the game compatibility issues are less ARM, and more Qualcomm's crud GPU and drivers.

VPNs are a bit odd, they are virtual networking devices and depending on how it works it may require a driver which won't be compatible without being native. VPNs can work just fine, if they can be configured using the built-in Windows VPN settings or a compatible ARM64 VPN like Wireguard.

 

[pshufd]

Intel is stable, the question is, will they survive and the jury is still out on that. Cutting, selling laying off helps the bottom line look better but at some point you have to be profitable on your own. They need to turn the ship around before it sinks

Lunar Lake diminished Qualcomm's snapdragon. It basically provided much of what the snapdragon offered, without any compatibility issues. Consumers want peace of mind. If their apps run on lunar lake with the same battery lifespan and performance, why buy something else. Intel still has brand recognization

No question, what's surprising is that MS has been trying to make a version of windows run on arm since 2012 and they've not made a lot of headway in compatibility or app performance

Agreed, gaming is not a factor, but their apps are, I was unable to run my vpn with windows arm (in parallels) on my M1 MBP. I get my issues are not representative, but it shows how ill suited businesses and enterprise applicatins are for arm windows.

I called my help desk, and even the department that handles VPN and they just shrugged their shoulders saying it should work. Its not just games that have compatibility issues, and unlike games, not being able run some enterprise application will cost the business money and time

It sounds like Intel isn't stable from your description.

Panther Lake is supposed to get into volume production on Intel 18A this fall with consumer shipments in early 2026. I had a look at their mobile plans and they're going from 8 cores (4P, 4E) to (4P, 8E, 4LP) so somewhat better multicore performance and probably even better battery life on idle. This probably still won't compete with AMD HX3* chips in multicore performance but will have better battery life and should be a nice upgrade for those wanting thin and light laptops. I haven't looked at their high-powered mobile and desktop lines as I'm not really interested right now but I could see doing a desktop build if they hit a homerun with it. It's competing with an M5 Studio for 2026. I'm not going to buy one but I'm really interested to see what they come out with laptops for next year as the competition will be really hot with Apple likely coming out with OLED and several other interesting features (beyond the CPU) for M5 or M6.

The bad news is that I've heard that they are 50% or lower yields on 18A for Panther Lake and they need 60-70 percent for breakeven. So can they ramp up yields quickly? Do they run at a loss? Or do they just delay the launch? Their yield issues could explain why they currently don't have any Fab customers.

If they can't get 10A yields up, then I expect them to sell off pieces of the company. I really like what they did with Lunar Lake but Lunar Lake can't carry the company.

I personally see no reason to buy a Qualcomm laptop unless they are severely discounted. The concern I have is if Microsoft dropped support or even slowed down support. ARM conditional code has been around in Microsoft's code base since the 1990s when they powered the Ipaq. That you can get a Microsoft Surface with ARM would hint that they might support it but it's only lukewarm. You can go over to Gamer's Nexus and there's a reason why they never talk about ARM.

Microsoft had Windows NT on RISC in the 1990s: DEC Alpha, Intel Itanium, MIPS, and Power PC. They may have had it running on ARM too. They used FX!32 to run x86 programs in translation, somewhat similar to Rosetta though FX!32 saved translated code and you could translate code off-hours. I suspect that Microsoft could spin up a port as easily as Oracle. Hammering out the portability details and testing takes a lot of time though.

Professionals buy Dell laptops that have been certified to run a bunch of applications well that are commonly used by industry segments. They run these large, clunky laptops that probably aren't attractive to consumers or general business customers; because they need to for their line of work. I don't see Qualcomm or other vendors putting in the work to certify for those user.

 

[pshufd]

They haven't? Windows RT didn't run x86 or x64 apps at all. Even with a jailbroken device. Windows 10 on ARM added x86 compatibility, 11 added x64. They recently added support for AVX2 and other instructions ( IIRC Apple didn't bother with that either). Nor is the compatibility particularly slow, IME it's like ~60% of native, whereas Rosetta 2 is like ~70% and Apple added hardware features to the CPU for it. There has also been a pretty huge push since the Snapdragon Elite launch for native ARM64 Windows apps. It's a bit hard to check, but I also suspect a lot of the game compatibility issues are less ARM, and more Qualcomm's crud GPU and drivers.

VPNs are a bit odd, they are virtual networking devices and depending on how it works it may require a driver which won't be compatible without being native. VPNs can work just fine, if they can be configured using the built-in Windows VPN settings or a compatible ARM64 VPN like Wireguard.

Apple's dropping Rosetta 2 after 2027 so they are going all-in on ARM and there's no ambiguity about support. So there's much more pressure for software vendors to do native ports. Intuit TurboTax is still Intel only on macOS as of the 2024 tax year. I ran it on my iMac Pro after complaining about performance on my Mac Studio with the program. It runs much faster on the iMac Pro. We'll see what happens with TurboTax for 2025.

Microsoft clearly isn't dropping x64 but you have to have it in the back of your mind when you buy a Windows ARM device that they could drop support or stop adding features for it.

If AMD came out with a really low-power chip like Lunar Lake, then that could really pressure Windows ARM. AMD is pretty smart about picking the markets that they play in and they've done a good job in the midrange with the HX3* chips. They fill a meaty part of the market.

 

[maflynn]

I personally see no reason to buy a Qualcomm laptop

Apples, to apples, what does snapdragon x give you that you don't get with Lunar Lake? I think for most consumers, they will opt for an intel based cpu if the two laptops are priced similarly so these laptops need to be reduced.

On the business side of the fence, if there's even a hint of incompatibility, the purchasing department is going to steer far way. I think that's primarily why MS quietly introduced their intel based surface laptop

 

[pshufd]

Apples, to apples, what does snapdragon x give you that you don't get with Lunar Lake? I think for most consumers, they will opt for an intel based cpu if the two laptops are priced similarly so these laptops need to be reduced.

On the business side of the fence, if there's even a hint of incompatibility, the purchasing department is going to steer far way. I think that's primarily why MS quietly introduced their intel based surface laptop

I just went through a spec list of the Microsoft Surface with Qualcomm and it looks like like a Lunar Lake laptop specs except for the CPU.

I could not tell you what advantages Qualcomm gives you.

I have seen laptop reviewers echo the same thing: there is no reason to buy one.

 

[maflynn]

I have seen laptop reviewers echo the same thing: there is no reason to buy one.

I asked chatgpt to summarize what Qualcomm promised vs what they delivered. While we need to take the output of chathpt with a grain of salt (don't be like that one lawyer who had chtgpt write his briefs for him), what's listed below is what I've seen in the review YTs.

Over promising on the benchmarks, gaming compatibility battery life being measured in days not hours, and AI (this I think is mostly a MS failure). Post 12 where I linked that video touches upon these items in greater details.