Windows on Mac and Mac OS X on PCs?

[MacG]

Stepping away from brand-jingoism or zealotry for a moment, I think that making Mac OS X available for generic PC hardware is a *good* idea in theory.

In practice tho, I don't think this will happen. Its not clear whether Apple have the development, testing and support resources to ensure Mac OS X's smooth operation with the glut of third party PCI/PCI-E/AGP hardware out there. Although drivers etc are the ultimate responsibility of the third party manufacturers, Apple will need to be confident that it will work 'well enough' out of the box to capture the users.

And thats a pretty tall order.

This is why having Mac OS X run on other hardware is a bad idea: http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2006/01/10/511201.aspx The nightmare of device drivers and related bugs is something we don't need to worry ourselves about.

The advantage apple brings to the equation is more than just pretty boxes it's that they control the HW, the OS and the applications. Having control over all of that makes for a richer, more problem-free experience.

 

[nagromme]

Yes, OS X is a fine OS. But many people WANT to use something else instead.

A fine choice--to each his own I'd imagine the vast majority of those people have never actually made significant use of OS X to judge, though. And when they buy a Mac to run Windows or Linux on, OS X and a bundle of free apps will still be there, pre-loaded to tempt them into giving it a try Everybody wins!

Either way: I want OS X and Windows to run together. I want both running in full screen on 2 separate monitors. The *perfect* productivity environment

I used to run Windows on my old PowerBook G3, and I ran it on a generic PC monitor--with a generic USB keyboard and mouse--while the PowerBook's internal screen kept running Mac OS.

Two fun games to play with the ignorant:

1. "Where's the PC?" They saw the monitor, keyboard, and mouse running Windows... but no tower!?!

2. Moving the PC mouse off the edge of the screen and "magically" onto the PowerBook to do Mac stuff. That sent them into fits

 

[flahiker]

why would you run Windows on a Mac. thats stupid. runing OS X on PC would make sense. running xp on an mac would be like be like driving a ferrari with a honda civic engine in it

Not feeding Trolls but here is why. I assume that you use / like OSX otherwise you would not be here. Windows is perfectly usable ans has been for a long time, however it does have certain drawbacks. Likewise, OSX has its own (yet different) drawbacks.

There are numerous examples of software that are specific to Windows. For example, engineering design software (mechanical, ee, embedded cross compilers, FPGA tools, etc) tends to be written for a small niche. The software is usually very expensive (compared to the hardware cost). It does not make economic sense to port these programs to different platforms. (Linux, BSD Variants, OSX, SPARC, etc).

I assume we want to run windows applications and not windows itself. Our options for doing so on a Mac are as follows. All should allow for native / near native speeds.

1) Dual Boot running Windows OR OSX
2) VMware running Windows along side OSX
3) WINE / DARWINE running Windows apps on top of OSX
4) VPC
5) Xen

I haven't heard anything about the progress of any of these initiaves though. All I know is that it would be nice to have one machine run the applications I need.

 

[GFLPraxis]

VPC is going to be great, if you need Windows--I've always assumed a new Intel Mac version would be coming.

No dual boot, no delay, no hassle, just use ANY app ANY time, drag-and-drop between them, etc... use Mac and Windows apps TOGETHER. Having only half your apps at any one time is no good. Simultaneous on one screen is good! (And cool in a geeky way.)

Best of all, this way if Windows gets a virus it canNOT wipe your Mac's HD. It can only attack the VPC hardfile. That's the way I like my Windows--safely abstracted away from my hardware, keeping its malware to itself. (Of course if you opt to share some of your Mac HD with the Windows side--you open up those files to Windows malware. So I don't do that--I just drag Mac files onto the Windows desktop when I want to share saved files.)

And no matter HOW you run Windows... just knowing there ARE ways to do it (some easier than others) creates a great comfort zone for switchers. Most of them will never need to run Windows on their Mac in reality--or will just keep their old PC under the desk for that. But knowing the CAN will make them less afraid. Irrational fear of the unknown is what makes people find the current dire state of Windows "acceptable" after all.

Not quite.

1) Viruses wiping the drive isn't that big a problem. If you had a dual boot, Windows doesn't read the Mac filesystem, so it won't even see your Mac partition. Viruses would only affect the Windows partition.

2) I doubt you could use VPC for games as OS X would be using the graphics card.

 

[Doctor Q]

why would you run Windows on a Mac.

Here's yet another reason: If Windows ran on Mac hardware, Mac purchases would be easier to justify in IT departments of business, and in schools, where "runs Windows software" is often a requirement for purchases, whether justified or not.

 

[hhlee]

1) Dual Boot running Windows OR OSX
2) VMware running Windows along side OSX
3) WINE / DARWINE running Windows apps on top of OSX
4) VPC
5) Xen

i'd be a huge fan of NOT dual booting. you have at least 2 cores, why not use one for something else. yes, i know, you won't get the super duper multithreaded use but we still live in a world where most computers are chugging along with one proc and are doing fine. why not allow native simultaneous boot of both os x and windows or if you need more power/memory, do what laptops are capable of doing now, which is saving the contents to disk to hibernate. in the world of 160gb+ hard drives, i think that'd be a great solution

 

[kainjow]

I used to run Windows on my old PowerBook G3, and I ran it on a generic PC monitor--with a generic USB keyboard and mouse--while the PowerBook's internal screen kept running Mac OS.

Two fun games to play with the ignorant:

1. "Where's the PC?" They saw the monitor, keyboard, and mouse running Windows... but no tower!?!

2. Moving the PC mouse off the edge of the screen and "magically" onto the PowerBook to do Mac stuff. That sent them into fits

That's what I'm talking about! 2 monitors, with the mouse going from one monitor to the other, with full drag and drop and copy and paste support *drools* (we need a drool emoticon)

 

[Gasu E.]

Windows on Mac: If there's a problem, who ya gonna call?

 

[DaveP]

We've yet to see how these machines stack up against current PC offerings, but if they are superior, than I could see a lot of people switching for hardware reasons alone. They can still use Windows, why not get the best hardware?

 

[Some_Big_Spoon]

why em windows? Why not just run the apps windows free a' la' X11, WINE, etc. Windows is unnecessary. Where's the mature DarWINE when you need it?

 

[kainjow]

Windows on Mac: If there's a problem, who ya gonna call?

Most people who boot Windows on their Mac are probably the people who don't buy namebrand PCs. They are the ones who custom build their computers, and are used to fixing their PCs theirselves. It's the same thing for ones who install OS X onto their PC

 

[DaveP]

Windows on Mac: If there's a problem, who ya gonna call?

Windows on Mac may not be for inexperienced users (but hey, sometimes neither is Windows on PC). I would assume there will be a lot of help and forums and whatnot available online, which I think is the way most experience computer people get pretty all their help.

But yes, ultimately you are on your own, but I don't think it's a big deal.

 

[jerrybrace]

One other thing to note about the lack of a BIOS and the new EFI - Windows Vista - the next version of Windows supports EFI. Windows XP Pro 64Bit does as well - but it will only run on 64Bit processors. So dual booting Windows Vista and Mac OS X may be much easier. Only problem - Vista isn't due until the end of the year. In any case I'm sure someone will get Windows XP running somehow.

Anywho - just my 2 cents.

Jerry

 

[hhlee]

why would you run Windows on a Mac. thats stupid. runing OS X on PC would make sense. running xp on an mac would be like be like driving a ferrari with a honda civic engine in it

there are a bajillion reasons why you'd need to turn windows on a mac. for many people it does depend on what software availability there is. and no, saying that all the pro apps are better on the mac is too closeminded. apple is pushing os x beyond pro apps and its core market and i believe a powerful switch factor will be some kind of "security" of being able to revert back to windows.

1 important reason, many people with the economic power to buy computers learned how to use computers in the windows world. and that is still predominantly true today. how can you persuade them to change to mac? you can't just say: oh, its way better than windows but you'll have to relearn everything you ever knew about how to operate a computer - you don't click on my computer now, control panel isn't in the start menu. some people need to get something done and don't have the time to fiddle around. if they use windows software at work, let them boot windows, finish it and return back to os x

 

[nagromme]

Windows and malware/viruses

Some clarification may be needed about Windows malware/spyware/viruses on Mac. My understanding (corrections welcomed) is:

* The Intel chips aren't what make PCs so insecure. It's problems with Windows. So Intel Macs will STILL be as secure and virus-free as we have always enjoyed.

* But if you put Windows on your Mac hardware, now you're vulnerable.

* BUT Windows can't read/write Mac-formatted ("HFS") hard drives without special software. So you'll have to have Windows on a separate partition (or physical drive) anyway, and the Mac half won't be accessible to Windows malware.

* EXCEPT for two possibilities: a Windows virus can erase the whole drive if it wants. It doesn't have to support HFS for that. Less likely but still not good for peac of mind: some future virus could in theory have built-in HFS support software. In other words, a virus or spyware could be made with the intent of using Windows flaws to get to BOTH Windows and Mac files.

* Windows trojan horses are .exe files that can't run on Mac OS X (without adding Windows or WINE), so they won't hurt you even if you TRY to double-click them. (But there can still be Mac-only trojan horse: a trojan is nothing more than a lie: someone says an app does one thing, but it does another. No OS will protect you 100% from liars.)

* If you keep Windows running in virtual hardware--like VPC does--THEN your Mac is safe: Windows CAN'T wipe your HD or access the Mac side in any way (unless you manually choose to share), because the virtual hardware it runs on thinks that its "hardfile" (virtual HD simulated by a single big file) IS the entire physical drive. Any attempts by a virus to wipe the hard disk will only wipe the VPC hardfile. (And a hardfile also has the benefit that you don't have to re-partition your Mac's HD, nor add a second HD. Plus the convenience of having both OS'es at the same time is nice.)

That's why a virtual hardware solution is the only way I'd ever have Windows on my Mac--UNLESS I used Windows ONLY when disconnected from the Internet. (Which still isn't ideal security: there are indirect ways a virus could get on Windows even without the Internet.)

 

[hob]

I can't believe Microsoft are so rubbish. Again and again...

They didn't see this coming? OK, fair enough - nor did many of us MacRumors people....

But they're MICROSOFT! Bill Gates is the richest person in the WORLD! They couldn't just chuck a few million dollars at VPC for Intel Mac? If they had, they'd have a workable product now, or in the very near future, and lots and lots of customers!!

 

[flahiker]

i'd be a huge fan of NOT dual booting. you have at least 2 cores, why not use one for something else. yes, i know, you won't get the super duper multithreaded use but we still live in a world where most computers are chugging along with one proc and are doing fine. why not allow native simultaneous boot of both os x and windows or if you need more power/memory, do what laptops are capable of doing now, which is saving the contents to disk to hibernate. in the world of 160gb+ hard drives, i think that'd be a great solution

EXACTLY!!!!

I used VMware with win '98 on Linux back in 2000. It performed well enough on an AMD k6-2 400. You could push the "sleep" button and the virtuall PC would be saved to the hard drive. The linux drive was shared via SMB to the PC (not to the rest of the network) and windows saw it as a network share. The graphics were a bit clumsy as no hardware acceleration worked.

 

[nagromme]

Not quite.

1) Viruses wiping the drive isn't that big a problem. If you had a dual boot, Windows doesn't read the Mac filesystem, so it won't even see your Mac partition. Viruses would only affect the Windows partition.

Actually, a virus doesn't NEED to read the Mac file system to erase the Mac drive or partition. A virus can simply reformat it. Windows can see that a partition or drive physically exists--otherwise there would be no way to reformat a corrupted drive. That's enough to do massive damage. (But not enough to steal individual Mac files. You may lose your data, but your privacy is at least intact--unless the virus were to have HFS software.)

A likely attack? I don't know, but possible--and too devastating for me to ignore. Windows CAN do that to my Mac, so I want to prevent it--and Virtual PC is one way to do so.

2) I doubt you could use VPC for games as OS X would be using the graphics card.

I agree that games on VPC is an unknown--but Microsoft was planning on adding GPU support even BEFORE the Intel switch, so I expect that will come. It wouldn't surprise me at all if 3D games run with only a small penalty (if any) on a future VPC. So I am hopeful that even gamers can have the security benefits of virtual hardware.

That's what I'm talking about! 2 monitors, with the mouse going from one monitor to the other, with full drag and drop and copy and paste support *drools* (we need a drool emoticon)

Macs have been doing that for years Just slowly, since VPC had a speed penalty. Soon it will be full speed.

 

[geeyesgee]

Maybe Windows could run like the way Classic OS9 programs run now...when you click on a windows program it just boots up from a partition and runs from there?

 

[greenstork]

why would you run Windows on a Mac. thats stupid. runing OS X on PC would make sense. running xp on an mac would be like be like driving a ferrari with a honda civic engine in it

Some of us work for a living and need Windows because of proprietary Windows software. Open your eyes before opening your mouth.

 

[hob]

I would never want to dual boot. Or even run windows, really. I'd rather have a situation like with "Classic" applications, whereby I could just run a game in Mac OS X, it would be full-screen anyway. I'd like the windows layer to be transparent.

Viruses wouldn't be a problem for the game-player. You could download patches etc. through Safari... Infact, you wouldn't really need to let windows online, except for Multiplayer games...

 

[toes]

Windows on a Mac

I work as an Architect and we use CAD software that is only available for windows. For my home use I have a powerbook (to edit vacation pictures, etc.). I have always loved the build-quality (and of course the design) of Apple Hardware (iApps and OSX just add another great layer to that) and I think it would be awesome if we could buy Macs for all future machines. I would prefer a dual boot, but I am concerned about the security aspect as well, because that is what makes my home machine so wonderful: No virii, no worms, no adware. Apple is still a Hardware company and OSX for Wintel PeeCee seems ridiculous to me (where would Apple recoup the development cost for that?). I don't like VPC if it retains the computing speed impact any emulation seems to have. As for gaming: Get a gaming console already . xbox, ps3, psp, nintendo ds - plenty of wonderful options. My DS even uses my Airport basestation for internet play ... good fun. (Just MNSHO).

 

[macintel4me]

i'd be a huge fan of NOT dual booting. you have at least 2 cores, why not use one for something else. yes, i know, you won't get the super duper multithreaded use but we still live in a world where most computers are chugging along with one proc and are doing fine. why not allow native simultaneous boot of both os x and windows or if you need more power/memory, do what laptops are capable of doing now, which is saving the contents to disk to hibernate. in the world of 160gb+ hard drives, i think that'd be a great solution

ahhh, the mainframe lives!

 

[danp]

This is why having Mac OS X run on other hardware is a bad idea: http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2006/01/10/511201.aspx The nightmare of device drivers and related bugs is something we don't need to worry ourselves about.

The advantage apple brings to the equation is more than just pretty boxes it's that they control the HW, the OS and the applications. Having control over all of that makes for a richer, more problem-free experience.

...And simultaneously, the main reason Apple will always be a niche player in the computer world.

A very difficult decision for them to make!

 

[longofest]

A note on current state of EFI and Windows:

• 32-bit windows does not support it (WinXP)
• 64-bit Windows does support it
• Windows Vista will support it

Of course, CoreDuo is a 32-bit processor, so 64-bit Windows won't help you much for now. However, Yonah's successor will be 64-bit, and is due-out mid-year. Expect the next revision of MacBook Pro to be 64-bit, and you will be able to put 64-bit windows on it (although you won't be able to run crap on it, since 64-bit windows is very specialized for servers). So then again, just wait for Vista if you really want to get Windows on your iMac/Macbook pro.

or...

stay the hell away from windows and its virus ridden existence, and don't even try putting Windows on your Mac.