Wireless sync why not wireless charging?

Discussion in 'iPhone' started by lostngone, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #1
    Ok, so now that Apple has plans for wireless syncing do you thing they will look into built-in inductive charging for iOS devices? I know there are a few 3rd-party companies that do this with sleeves/cases but it would be nice to just have it built-in. They could even put coils into the lids of MacBooks so you could charge your iPhone by just setting on top.
     
  2. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #2
    Inductive charging is a good idea. However, I'd not draw conclusions from wifi sync. Two completely different things. It may still be some time until we see wireless charging on the iPhone, if ever.
     
  3. aleni macrumors 68020

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    #3
    i don't get the idea of wireless charging if u still need to put it on the charging plate. it seems as useless as a dock. can't do anything while it's being charged.

    would be good for the future when the charging plate can transmit the power by 3-4 meters in distance so i can use the iPhone freely while it's being charged, just like a wired charging but without the hassle of a cable.
     
  4. dccorona macrumors 68020

    dccorona

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    #4
    because its very easy, especially in bed at night, for example, to pick up your phone when you get a call, text, need to look something up, etc, then set it right back down...and its charging

    its like having your phone on the table while you're not using it, except whenever its on the table, its charging
     
  5. Small White Car macrumors G4

    Small White Car

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    #5
    I'd assume it's because it's sure to make the phone thicker which is a no-no in Apple's book.

    I'm sure we'll evetually get it when all the 'phone' and 'iPod' parts are the size of a penny. Since Apple won't make the phone THAT small they'll ask "what else can we put in here?" and things like wireless charging will finally be added.
     
  6. sharpycl macrumors 6502

    sharpycl

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    #6
    That is something the current hardware isn't capable of without a 3rd party attachment to make it happen.

    Now I don't think it's difficult for the iPhone to do because Palm/HP has been doing this with the Pre hardware since day one, but I don't think apple would use something like this unless they can cram it into the case of the phone without making the phone bigger since every iPhone since the 1st has been getting smaller and smaller.

    But I can only dream of this because it would make charging super damn easy.

    P.S.-I like the idea of native hardware for the wireless charging ability because I don't like the cases that come with 3rd party Wireless charging hardware so having it already in the iPhone means I can use any case that I want.
     
  7. soco macrumors 68030

    soco

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    #7
    I don't think it needs to be a third party attachment, but I definitely don't see it on the horizon any time soon. Wireless charging is likely low on Apple's to-do for iPhone 5 through 7 or so.

    I do, however, think we'll get there eventually.
     
  8. BlaqkAudio macrumors 6502

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    #8
    Not possible unless you use a more powerful magnetic field. At which point, you would have to keep anything made of ferromagnetic material more than 4 meters away as well as any electronics sensitive to magnets.

    Wireless charging is nice, but it's slower than even charging through the USB port on your computer.
     
  9. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #9
    I do not see it really making it any thicker. It is just a loop of wire and they could easily hide a few coils in the phone somewhere but I think it is more a cost issue. The base stations would just cost to much to really add.
     
  10. Interstella5555 macrumors 603

    Interstella5555

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    #10
    You mean like I do right now with the wall charger that doesn't stop if I pick the phone up? Even more amazingly I can actually talk on my phone while it charges!
     
  11. gr8tfly macrumors 603

    gr8tfly

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    #11
    It's not quite "just a loop of wire". It's many loops, and the coil needs to be a certain diameter (probably as wide as the back of the phone). There are also support components to extract the power and add it to the charge circuit (they most likely wouldn't remove the wired charge, but even if they did, most of those components would remain).

    I can't see it fitting in any case Apple is going to be using for many years to come. There could be technology down the line which might make the receive compontents more efficient, but I can't think of anything I've seen lately which points in that direction (in the foreseeable future, anyway).
     
  12. rkahl macrumors 65816

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    #12
    I read somewhere (engadget i think) about wireless charging with future iMacs, but not anytime soon.
     
  13. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #13
    well look at the how thick the power mat backs are for blackberry phone. You will see it really does not add that much.
    Add to that Powermat was telling people at I think BES last year that they where working on getting a battery being the only thing added. Everything else is stock. If they can do that in a blackberry 1500mha battery and fit in the stock location it is not going to take up a lot of room.

    It takes me that Apple could do it with out Added any more thickness and there is enough dead zone in the phone to added it. I think it is a cost issue. So few are going to use, mat would be like 50 bucks min.
    You would need to get the docking station down to like 10-20 bucks max for just charging. I would love a wireless charging for my phone.
     
  14. jaseone macrumors 65816

    jaseone

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    #14
    I do that with it plugged in with no hassle at all.

    I also often charge it on my desk like that without issue so to me it really doesn't add anything to the table.
     
  15. msb3079 macrumors 6502a

    msb3079

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    #15
    I've been talking about wireless charging for years. If we can send signals wireless, why not power? It does not have mass like water (for example). Apparently it's in development...

    (not talking about those stupid charging mats... talking about true wireless power transfer)
     
  16. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #16
    But you have to plug it in. If you ever try a wireless system you would understand why it is so great. I had just a desktop charging pod for my Blackberry and it was great. Set the phone in the charger and it would charge. It was a lot easier than plugging it in. Yes plugging is not very hard but still some ways annoying. Wireless charger is just a drop on it and good to go. No messing around plugging something in or having to unplug it.
     
  17. gr8tfly macrumors 603

    gr8tfly

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    #17
    Not possible, mostly because of the inverse square law. If you had an rf field strong enough to charge a device in the volume of a typical room (say, 15 ft. across), it wouldn't be a safe power density. For example, assuming an omni antenna pattern, 100W output (which requires more than that to generate it), would be <0.2 mw/cm2 (maximum safe value at 1GHz would be ~0.7mw/cm2 and farther than -8 ft. from antenna - so you could still output more than a 100W and be safe, depending on how far away from the antenna you were. But, now you're talking about something pulling hundreds of watts from a/c, ending up with a trivial charge rate, and part of the room you couldn't safely be in).

    Ignoring the safety factor: even with an efficient receive antenna, you are still talking about the milliwatt range - it would take days to even notice an increase in charge. In other words, it's not very efficient except at short distances (like a mat) - even then, it doesn't provide the charge rates of a wired connection.
     
  18. reaborg, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011

    reaborg macrumors member

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    #18
    Sending "information" vs "energy" are two totally different beasts. In sending information, all that really matters is signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). The actual power level of that signal doesn't matter. Because on the receiving end, if that ratio is large enough, no matter how small the power level (due to (path) losses), you can amplify the crap out of it and still have high fidelity. That's why we can send/receive information from even Mars and beyond so easily.

    When sending energy/power over long distance, same issues are present (path losses due to refraction, diffraction, reflection, absorption, scattering, losses in air, etc.). But unfortunately, amplifying doesn't make sense here (it takes energy to do so but then what's the point of wireless transfer?). So what you receive is what you get.

    Aside from these mat charging for mobile applications, and very close proximity energy transfer for rail systems, and buses, etc., there's no romantic future in wireless charging.

    The only long distance man-made energy transfer I know of are high power lasers, and even there, tremendous losses. And I certainly don't want lasers pointed at my phone!
     
  19. radiogoober macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    I'm sorry, but I honestly would rather my tiny white little cable that I can literally put in my pocket as compared to a big stupid charge mat that takes up a lot of room on my nightstand.
     
  20. eastercat macrumors 68040

    eastercat

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    #20
    It's frickin' lasers and you're supposed to do your Dr. Evil move while saying it. ;)
     
  21. belle93 macrumors newbie

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    #21
    I read somewhere a while ago, that Scientists had successfully been able to transmit power up to three meters (that'll be 9,8feet). I Couldn't imagine anything else than it would be implemented in devices somewhere in the future, though i presume we'll have to wait a couple of years to have it all worked out :)

    And for the article that i read: It's about a year back, i do not have any proof of it, so don't take me on the word :)

    Have a nice day!
     
  22. dccorona macrumors 68020

    dccorona

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    #22
    the powermat adapters for phones that have removable batteries literally add no bulk at all...they have in development batteries that pick up the charge just by replacing the battery in your phone with these (which have the same capacity), and you don't need a special backing at all. No bulk would be added.

    All you'd need is a metal plate attached to the battery (which the Apple logo could be). Inductive charging is all done by the mat, all the receiver has to do is take on electrons from the mat (which are transferred inductively, which means it is done just by the receiver being conductive) and funnel them into the battery
     
  23. msb3079 macrumors 6502a

    msb3079

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    #23
    You obviously know a lot more than me about it (I'm being honest, not as ass, haha)... so I can't "argue" with you. But I find it hard to believe it's COMPLETELY not possible.
     
  24. lostngone thread starter macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #24
    I didn't mean...

    Even with wireless sync I don't think Apple would remove the 30-pin connector or if they did they would still leave some sort of USB connector for charging/restore/sync.

    As far as adding thickness. I would think with technology improvements they could keep the over all dimensions the same(i.e. shrink down other things) to make room for the coil/charging circuit. Other devices have this tech built in and are not huge.
     
  25. gr8tfly macrumors 603

    gr8tfly

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    #25
    You can run the numbers yourself - there are several calculators on the web. Just lookup RF safety, power density, SAR. Also, both the FCC and ARRL (Amateur Radio Relay League) have information on the subject. Amateur Radio licensees (I am licensed as Amateur Extra) are required to know the power density for a particular antenna and installation, frequency, and power, to comply with established safety guidelines. You've probably heard of the term SAR (Specific Absorption Rate) in reference to cell phone usage. SAR is the way power density is equated to how it affects a body.

    The physics just make it impractible for anything more than milliwatts. I seem to remember the article mentioned by another poster where scientists had developed something that worked out to almost 10'. I'd have to go reread it to see what they were doing, but there are definitely limitations due to the physics involved. I would be greatly surprised if they achieved anything more than a weak maintenance charge level.

    There are some other applications where wireless charging works well - but, again, over short distances. Medical implants can be charged through the skin by having a small disc shaped antenna <3" dia. placed in close proximity. It takes a few hours to bring it up from about half charged, though it only needs to be charged every few weeks. The device itself has fairly low power requirements; I'm not sure of the battery's capacity - I'd think it would be similar to a smartphone.

    You can see, though, this applicafion is similar to using a charging mat with a smartphone. The device and charger must be in close proximity, otherwise there's too much loss due to the reasons I gave earlier.

    You might enjoy reading about the efforts of Nikola Tesla regarding wireless power distribution (holds the patent for the invention of radio). One of his projects was to use a device like his famous Tesla Coil to provide wireless power for lighting. Aside from the tremendous interference with radio, there were a couple of other major shortcomings: First, you could never turn off the lights, and second, you couldn't tell how much power someone was using - therefore, charging for the service (no pun intended) wasn't possible. Also, that old friend the inverse square law meant the power could only be used near the transmitting station.
     

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