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Why does the title say iTunes Match when clearly this is about iTunes in the Cloud. iTunes Match is the service for giving you high quality versions of your napster MP3s.

Napster MP3s? Yes, obviously if you don't consume all of your music from the iTunes store like a mindless minion, it's "napster MP3s." And There is no iTunes in the cloud, so far as an app that operates fully in the cloud. The best they've done so far with iCloud is giving you the ability to re-download media that you paid for from iTunes. The idea that iTunes = paid purchases is insulting to anyone who has been using iTunes as a media library management application dating back to BEFORE there was such thing as an iTunes Music Store, iTunes App Store, iTunes iBooks store.

iTunes =/= iTunes Store, and those people so brainwashed to believe it does are clearly part of the problem for those of us looking for real solutions to cloud management of our media libraries.

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What are we debating here? I think Apple's goal is to save data. I think the majority of people will listen to a CD or a song more than once if they really like it. If that is the case then the downloading...which I will refer to as cache...is perfect because you've downloaded it once and can play it 10,000 times without using up your data. That's great for when I'm on a plane. Most airports have wifi so you can "plan ahead" by downloading what you think you will want to hear.

Sure streaming is fine, but the con is that streaming serves those with unlimited plans best, not those with data caps.

The way I see it is I will be playing songs as I go not worrying about what is or is not downloaded already. The only time I WILL worry is when I have run out of space. At that point I will be deleting songs/albums.

I think Apple's next step would be to automatically delete cache when an allotted amount of space has been reached. Take the picture I've attached as an example. It is from an iPhone app called iSub that does all this already. It's used to stream music (and movies soon) to your iPhone from your subsonic server at home.

I agree with you that there should be an automatic cutoff for the cache, but I disagree that streaming kills your data plan. This is the brainwashing that AT&T and Verizon are going for to get the average person to think they should tip-toe around the network and not use streaming services for fear of burning up their data. You can stream music HOURS A DAY, every day, and you're not going to burn through 2-5 GB of data on AT&T's network.

I think people should do some testing. Use a streaming app as much as possible for a week and monitor your bandwidth consumption. Tell me that this is a HUGE deal. I really don't believe it is, especially when wi-fi constitutes at least some portion of that streaming for most individuals.

Any way you cut it, iTunes Match without a pre-defined maximum cache (see: not unlimited) is necessary and MUST be implemented or many of us simply won't give Apple our money for this service.
 
Did you even read the post I quoted and what my post was responding to? I never said I wanted iCloud to be like Pandora or Spotify... not in the slightest. Those services provide a la carte access to content you don't own - it's a completely different offering.

I know what iCloud is (at least in this week's beta), and I'm not asking for it to be a replacement for Pandora (a web radio station) or Spotify (a subscription-based music service). Please read through the thread before you make rebuttals.

My bad... you started off by quoting prices from other streaming services... and then you called Apple's download-only service pointless.

Cheers :)
 
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spimp31 said:
Why does the title say iTunes Match when clearly this is about iTunes in the Cloud. iTunes Match is the service for giving you high quality versions of your napster MP3s.

Napster MP3s? Yes, obviously if you don't consume all of your music from the iTunes store like a mindless minion, it's "napster MP3s." And There is no iTunes in the cloud, so far as an app that operates fully in the cloud. The best they've done so far with iCloud is giving you the ability to re-download media that you paid for from iTunes. The idea that iTunes = paid purchases is insulting to anyone who has been using iTunes as a media library management application dating back to BEFORE there was such thing as an iTunes Music Store, iTunes App Store, iTunes iBooks store.

iTunes =/= iTunes Store, and those people so brainwashed to believe it does are clearly part of the problem for those of us looking for real solutions to cloud management of our media libraries.

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What are we debating here? I think Apple's goal is to save data. I think the majority of people will listen to a CD or a song more than once if they really like it. If that is the case then the downloading...which I will refer to as cache...is perfect because you've downloaded it once and can play it 10,000 times without using up your data. That's great for when I'm on a plane. Most airports have wifi so you can "plan ahead" by downloading what you think you will want to hear.

Sure streaming is fine, but the con is that streaming serves those with unlimited plans best, not those with data caps.

The way I see it is I will be playing songs as I go not worrying about what is or is not downloaded already. The only time I WILL worry is when I have run out of space. At that point I will be deleting songs/albums.

I think Apple's next step would be to automatically delete cache when an allotted amount of space has been reached. Take the picture I've attached as an example. It is from an iPhone app called iSub that does all this already. It's used to stream music (and movies soon) to your iPhone from your subsonic server at home.

I agree with you that there should be an automatic cutoff for the cache, but I disagree that streaming kills your data plan. This is the brainwashing that AT&T and Verizon are going for to get the average person to think they should tip-toe around the network and not use streaming services for fear of burning up their data. You can stream music HOURS A DAY, every day, and you're not going to burn through 2-5 GB of data on AT&T's network.

I think people should do some testing. Use a streaming app as much as possible for a week and monitor your bandwidth consumption. Tell me that this is a HUGE deal. I really don't believe it is, especially when wi-fi constitutes at least some portion of that streaming for most individuals.

Any way you cut it, iTunes Match without a pre-defined maximum cache (see: not unlimited) is necessary and MUST be implemented or many of us simply won't give Apple our money for this service.

The point is to save as much as possible everywhere to enjoy more of it. Music isn't the only thing that consumes data. I want to be able to use Netflix and AirVideo as well.

I use anywhere from 2.5-4gb per month right now.
 
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The point is to save as much as possible everywhere to enjoy more of it. Music isn't the only thing that consumes data. I want to be able to use Netflix and AirVideo as well.

I use anywhere from 2.5-4gb per month right now.

Go back to my post on the previous page. Even if you are a bandwidth hog, that doesn't excuse the fact that this method as it's implemented in the latest beta is horrible for the end user's management of free space on their iDevice. When the implementation creates headache for the user across the device, not just in this particular app, it's very poor. And to choose bandwidth savings over that is silly.

Besides, you realize that when you skip from song to song you're racking up downloads for each and every song, right? How that saves you in the end as a user is beyond me.
 
Go back to my post on the previous page. Even if you are a bandwidth hog, that doesn't excuse the fact that this method as it's implemented in the latest beta is horrible for the end user's management of free space on their iDevice. When the implementation creates headache for the user across the device, not just in this particular app, it's very poor. And to choose bandwidth savings over that is silly.

Besides, you realize that when you skip from song to song you're racking up downloads for each and every song, right? How that saves you in the end as a user is beyond me.

I see what you are saying, but I don't believe this has been finalized. I have also mentioned in a previous post that Apple needs to implement some sort of system that manages that cache for the user. I believe the oldest played cache should be deleted when a new song is needed and the limit has been reached. I also believe the allotted space for cache should be chosen by the end user.

If we go by what we have in front of us, yes...it can be cumbersome. Our developers beta testing should really voice their opinions to get such a feature implemented if one is not already being developed. Either way, I'm sure the jailbreak community will take care of us.
 
I agree with you that there should be an automatic cutoff for the cache, but I disagree that streaming kills your data plan. This is the brainwashing that AT&T and Verizon are going for to get the average person to think they should tip-toe around the network and not use streaming services for fear of burning up their data. You can stream music HOURS A DAY, every day, and you're not going to burn through 2-5 GB of data on AT&T's network.
Not everyone's got 2-5 gig data plans. I've got the 200 meg plan for instance and about 2 days of streaming on the drive home from work maxes me out. (think 4 megs a song). I'm on wifi at work so I can steam all day there, but on my data plan, nope.
 
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Sedrick said:
I agree with you that there should be an automatic cutoff for the cache, but I disagree that streaming kills your data plan. This is the brainwashing that AT&T and Verizon are going for to get the average person to think they should tip-toe around the network and not use streaming services for fear of burning up their data. You can stream music HOURS A DAY, every day, and you're not going to burn through 2-5 GB of data on AT&T's network.
Not everyone's got 2-5 gig data plans. I've got the 200 meg plan for instance and about 2 days of streaming on the drive home from work maxes me out. (think 4 megs a song). I'm on wifi at work so I can steam all day there, but on my data plan, nope.

How is this even relevant? With 200 MB of data you can't use any streaming service on the regular without going over every month. Obviously a service like iTunes match, streaming or downloading, isn't for your type of plan.
 
You seem to have missed the whole point of his post. iTunes Match saves on bandwidth because you don't consume bandwidth EVERY time you listen to the same song! It downloads to your device the first time you listen to it, then it is stored locally until you remove it. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
Go back and re-read the post that you replied to, I explained this to you already. You have to remove the song to hear more songs unless your total library does not exceed the maximum storage of your device. Therefore you spend all of your time deleting and redownloading all of your music, saving zero bandwidth unless you listen to the same stupid Katy Perry song over and over and over again.

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If you happen to play a song you've played before when you have no connection, you can do so (unlike streaming).
The previous beta gave you the option of downloading the song to your device, if you wanted to use up your space and listen to it offline like you're describing. But if you wanted, you could just stream it and not waste the space. That's the best solution and works for everyone. I don't know how after they've crippled the service anyone can come out and defend it for being a worse set of options than existed last week.

A cloud service is all about convenience. You can store your stuff on the cloud as opposed to having to go to your home and sync everything manually. The streaming option gave you the convenience of listening to your music anywhere you have internet access (not just WiFi) without having to use any space on your device. Now we have to play this stupid game of listen, delete, listen, delete... it ends up being more work than you started with.

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MacRumours feel like eating the humble pie? Or will their ego not allow them to.
There were two betas. Apple changed the way the service worked between the two. MacRumors reported correctly on the story. L2read.
 
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Let's be real about this: Beta 6 wasn't a streaming service. You can call it streaming plus, or whatever you want, but it still downloaded each song. It's quite preferable over streaming when you are using 3G and at the mercy of shaky internet conditions. 10 minutes down the road you may have no service at all, and that downloaded song will save you the pains of streaming services right now when the track cuts out on you because it's buffering a very small portion of the song and streaming as you go.
I agree with most of your diatribe, but this position is completely illogical. The "streaming" version of the previous beta still downloaded the song in its entirety, it just didn't eat up space on your device like the current one does (it removed the song from your cache when you advanced to the next song). But the song still downloaded the first time, at the same rate it does now. So saying "10 minutes down the road you may have no service at all, and that downloaded song will save you the pains of streaming services when the track cuts out..." is nonsense, because either the track downloaded or it didn't. If you don't have internet service and you can't stream it, guess what - you can't download it, either. And with the previous beta, you had the option to save that pre-downloaded cache to your phone, just like a download. So they have clearly taken a massive step back with the new version.

The rest of your post made sense, but it basically boiled down to the fact that having users manage all of the data themselves is inconvenient and inefficient compared to the way it was handled in the previous beta. That's what all of this discussion is about... they had an amazing solution and then flushed it down the drain.
 
This is such horrible logic here. The point of iTunes Match SHOULD be to allow you to maintain a library of music on your iOS device, files stored on that device, AND additionally have access to many more songs through iCloud/match.

I have 80,000 songs in my iTunes library. Not all of them are going on Match. My live shows certainly won't be matched, or music I've made, isn't going onto Match. So I'd like to free up space on my iPhone and/or iPad for that music, or for more Books, Apps (and all the data that comes with any magazine's half assed bandwidth hog), Movies, whatever!

Let's be real about this: Beta 6 wasn't a streaming service. You can call it streaming plus, or whatever you want, but it still downloaded each song. It's quite preferable over streaming when you are using 3G and at the mercy of shaky internet conditions. 10 minutes down the road you may have no service at all, and that downloaded song will save you the pains of streaming services right now when the track cuts out on you because it's buffering a very small portion of the song and streaming as you go.

The BIG issue with this Beta 7 implementation is that it's confusing to the user and puts the burden on the user to manage their device in a VERY haphazard way. Let's review here:

1. I start off with no iTunes Match songs downloaded to my iDevice. Thus, I fill up my iDevice, probably close to the max (save a GB or two). Maybe it's with more music, or apps, movies, books, whatever. Doesn't matter.

2. Now I start playing songs through Match. They start eating up that space. In an afternoon at work, that could run through my 1-2 GB of free space in a matter of hours, or if I skip some songs, maybe even an hour or less. What happens when my iDevice is now full, out of space? Does the service stop working? Does it start deleting the earliest played Match songs? Does it tell me, the user, that I need to free up space to listen to more music from Match? Whatever the outcome, this burden shouldn't be put on the user. That's poor implementation however you cut it.

3. Let's say I have 10 GB of free space, and I start eating away at that. How is going album by album (remembering what I have listened to), and swiping over each song a reasonable solution to free up more space on my device? Once I start impeding on my ability to use the device in other ways, i.e. downloading the latest issue of Wired magazine that I have a subscription for (or maybe it's 2 months? Or maybe I just want an older issue?) I now have to go into my device settings to see how much space I have to work with. I have to ACTIVELY MANAGE space on my device because the iTunes Match service, with 25,000 songs available to "download", eats up my free space.

There's an inherent conflict between how your iDevice works and how you currently manage the amount of data on it vs how iTunes Match works because it is in the cloud and is essentially 15-20 GB of data sitting up there for you to pull down onto your iDevice.

The previous implementation dealt with this pretty well. It downloads one song, and when you go to the next one, it replaces the previous song in the cache. Thus, it never eats up more than 30-40 MB at MOST. It solves all the issues with managing space on the user. It frees the user from all of the burdens I've just mentioned.

Even if the cache becomes 1-2 GB (which would probably be more reasonable on the server side than a song-by-song caching mechanism), the user would have a pre-defined amount of space to manage for. "Okay, iTunes Match takes up 1GB of space. I can plan around that." The user is still not trying to balance free space with the physical motions of deleting song after song.

I haven't even touched upon the syncing issues, though I would hope Apple is smart enough to place these iTunes Match songs outside the same folder as your synced iPod/music tracks on the iDevice, in the way it adds purchased items from the iTunes store when you purchase them from your iPhone or iPad.

From a usability perspective, it just makes simple sense to have a cache of a fixed, not variable/expanding size for iTunes Match. The size, as I mentioned, doesn't matter as the implementation is still the Beta 6 version (streaming+ if you will). Once you hit that cache threshold, it should just begin to push out the oldest cached items, and yes, you will have to download them again. But as we know, that's not a real issue unless you have no Internet access at all.

I'm sure the ignorant, lowest common denominator response will be something regarding your data plan and how the more songs it stores on your device the better. But anyone who brings this up is a.) an AT&T/Verizon loyalist who has their head up their butt or b.) too ignorant to realize that even AT&T offers wi-fi hotspots in many areas. Many of us will use wi-fi at work, wi-fi in public places, wi-fi even at home to download songs from Match (and I say at home because if you've tried connecting to an 80,000 song library at home on the iPod/music device, you know it will time out before it ever loads up to listen to music from).

Apple's implementation of these features shouldn't be at the expense of the user's ability to manage the music and at a larger level, the rest of the device. Certainly not to offset bandwidth consumption from a mobile provider. Bending over backwards in UI design and implementation so that AT&T isn't burdened at actually providing you with service you're paying out the wazoo for is simply unfeasible and as someone who shelled out the money for the device, should make you disgusted.

I have hope that because this is a beta it will not release like this, and I have backup hope that a jailbreak plugin can easily address the caching issues so that users don't have to manage their devices in such a fundamentally different way if they decide to shell out the $25 for iTunes Match. But if you think this method is GOOD, you just aren't thinking properly.

Thank You...At least someone else who get's it. I hope that Apple reads your post. You have explained this better than anyone else (including me) that I have read over all of the Apple related web pages.
 
Music isn't the only thing that consumes data. I want to be able to use Netflix and AirVideo as well.

I use anywhere from 2.5-4gb per month right now.
It's perfectly reasonable to want to use your device for those services, but that's what WiFi is for. 3G is okay for streaming music (barely), but I can't imagine what Netflix must look like over a cellular connection.

Actually, I can... I've seen videos on the YouTube app over 3G before I decided I'm never doing that again.
 
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SirHaakon said:
Let's be real about this: Beta 6 wasn't a streaming service. You can call it streaming plus, or whatever you want, but it still downloaded each song. It's quite preferable over streaming when you are using 3G and at the mercy of shaky internet conditions. 10 minutes down the road you may have no service at all, and that downloaded song will save you the pains of streaming services right now when the track cuts out on you because it's buffering a very small portion of the song and streaming as you go.
I agree with most of your diatribe, but this position is completely illogical. The "streaming" version of the previous beta still downloaded the song in its entirety, it just didn't eat up space on your device like the current one does (it removed the song from your cache when you advanced to the next song). But the song still downloaded the first time, at the same rate it does now. So saying "10 minutes down the road you may have no service at all, and that downloaded song will save you the pains of streaming services when the track cuts out..." is nonsense, because either the track downloaded or it didn't. If you don't have internet service and you can't stream it, guess what - you can't download it, either. And with the previous beta, you had the option to save that pre-downloaded cache to your phone, just like a download. So they have clearly taken a massive step back with the new version.

The rest of your post made sense, but it basically boiled down to the fact that having users manage all of the data themselves is inconvenient and inefficient compared to the way it was handled in the previous beta. That's what all of this discussion is about... they had an amazing solution and then flushed it down the drain.

There's nothing illogical about that at all. As opposed to Pandora, Spotify, etc you can start playing a song (let's say it's 6 minutes), and halfway thru it will cut out when you hit a bad spot of reception. With match it won't if you downloaded the song prior to hitting that area of poor reception. It's a superior way to stream, downloading the entire track. But it's not streaming in the sense of these other services.

I wasn't saying it was a bad thing, I was pointing out the difference now is that the downloading is out of control. Caching a single song is a big difference from downloading all of them, at which point you might as well just sync your music and say to hell with downloading it on the fly.
 
It's perfectly reasonable to want to use your device for those services, but that's what WiFi is for. 3G is okay for streaming music (barely), but I can't imagine what Netflix must look like over a cellular connection.

Actually, I can... I've seen videos on the YouTube app over 3G before I decided I'm never doing that again.

Some of us don't have a choice though. Just because there are AT&T wifi hotspots in other people's cities (as someone else mentioned) doesn't mean it's widely available.

For example, I can not get wifi in my LA Fitness. I also can not get wifi on my weekly two-way 4 hour drives. Netflix is a savior, even on 3G, for my children who watch it on their iPad.
 
There's nothing illogical about that at all. As opposed to Pandora, Spotify, etc you can start playing a song (let's say it's 6 minutes), and halfway thru it will cut out when you hit a bad spot of reception. With match it won't if you downloaded the song prior to hitting that area of poor reception. It's a superior way to stream, downloading the entire track.
If you start "downloading" a song with Match, and then hit a spot of bad reception, it's going to cease downloading just like Spotify would stop streaming. It's exactly the same thing.

Of course if you download the song in its entirety before you hit the dead zone you can keep listening to it - just as if the entire song has cached over Spotify before you hit the dead zone. They take the identical amount of time to transfer. Apple just allows you to redundantly access the cache after the song has completed... otherwise there is no difference.

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Some of us don't have a choice though. Just because there are AT&T wifi hotspots in other people's cities (as someone else mentioned) doesn't mean it's widely available.

For example, I can not get wifi in my LA Fitness. I also can not get wifi on my weekly two-way 4 hour drives. Netflix is a savior, even on 3G, for my children who watch it on their iPad.
I didn't say WiFi was regularly available everywhere, I just said you shouldn't be watching video over 3G.
 
If you start "downloading" a song with Match, and then hit a spot of bad reception, it's going to cease downloading just like Spotify would stop streaming. It's exactly the same thing.

Of course if you download the song in its entirety before you hit the dead zone you can keep listening to it - just as if the entire song has cached over Spotify before you hit the dead zone. They take the identical amount of time to transfer. Apple just allows you to redundantly access the cache after the song has completed... otherwise there is no difference.

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I didn't say WiFi was regularly available everywhere, I just said you shouldn't be watching video over 3G.

Obviously you don't know what you're talking about. If I pull up a song on Pandora it doesn't instantly cache the whole song which is why often halfway thru the song you will have it drop out amd rebuffer many times. There's a big difference between buffered streaming and progressive downloads. I thought this was hashed out in many articles earlier in the week discussing what "streaming plus" meant, and why Apple's beta 6 streaming was different from traditional streaming methods; why it was likely apple's solution to inferior cellular data.

My point was that the song will download in the first minute or two of play, meaning a five minute song won't drop out 4 minutes in if you no longer have service. Clearly the same can't be said for most of these other streaming services. With a progressive download, you can scrub back and forth even if you have no network connection. If you lose network connection, you're relying on what's already buffered, which in many cases wouldn't be enough to keep listening, nor could you rewind to before the drop out. I can't speak for Spotify's mobile app, but Pandora has no scrubbing options at all. You're at the mercy of your network connection to provide you a good listening experience start to finish. It's one reason why I think Match has the potential to rise above the competition (GUI and ease of use in comparison to competitors like Google and Amazon being another). Though this latest beta has the jury still out on how good the final service will be.

Aren't the differences between Match and its streaming competitors in a mobile environment (especially variable position vs fixed) very clear?
 
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Obviously you don't know what you're talking about.
Obviously you don't know how to read. I said Spotify, not Pandora. Pandora is a LIVE streaming service. Spotify is a FILE streaming service. Spotify works EXACTLY like iTunes match, with the one exception that iTunes match lets you play a song from the cache after it has been downloaded. The two services, however, download the song in its entirety to a cache and play from that cache while it is downloading. You can call it "progressive downloading," "stream plus," or what it really is, file streaming... but they're all the same.

The difference between the two services is that Spotify lets you play any song from their database as long as you pay the monthly fee; iTunes Match lets you play any song you currently own for a cheaper, annual fee. The way they stream is identical.
 
I didn't say WiFi was regularly available everywhere, I just said you shouldn't be watching video over 3G.

I didn't say you said that. Look at my post and see what is in parentheses.

Also, my post was to show you an example of when I would HAVE to use 3G for the video. Saying you "shouldn't" is ignorant for a couple reasons. For one, my 3G service is fast enough where videos are actually quite good. Your area may not be good if you can't tolerate it. Doesn't mean mine isn't good.

Second, you saying we "shouldn't" is pretty bold.
 
The whole conflict of wether it streams or downloads doesn't matter if you have the space to store the songs.It becomes a problem when your device has no more storage space.

Somebody test it, max out your devices storage and try to play a few of your iTunes Match songs. Let us know if it plays or if it tries to store the songs.
 
Dunno if this has already been asked but does anyone know if your play counts, ratings etc will sync across with iTunes match?
 
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