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Worth waiting for Haswell?

P

Panini

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 12, 2012
204
0
Palo Alto, CA
I know it all depends on what I've got right now and if I "need" a new laptop now.

I just want to know exactly how much better Haswell will be. I know it will be a major jump when compared to Sandy vs Ivy, but is there anything else to say about it? If it's not revolutionary, then I have no problem with Ivy bridge, but if it is something big that makes it so that apps made for those processors will have trouble running on Ivy, then I am concerned. Will it have more cores? Higher clock speed?

As far as processors go, I'm pretty content, so I'm not as worried about Haswell as I am about the next-gen graphics cards. The 650m is barely enough for my needs and if a truly significant graphics card rework is coming up then it's worth the wait, but is that going to happen or did Nvidia just have its "tock" with Kepler?

EDIT: I know there's always a question whether or not to wait. I didn't care much through C2D, Sandy, and Ivy since those weren't really groundbreaking (Sandy comes closest, but decend C2D CPUs are still able to run top quality games like Skyrim to this day). But Haswell has been attracting a lot of attention lately so I've become concerned as to if it is going to revolutionise the processor market or if it will be just a processor bump which will improve clock speeds and put in an extra core or two. Even then, if it blows away the market with a 4GHz+ mobile CPU then I'd be willing to wait.

I don't need a new computer, but I want one.
 
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Here's what Anand said in his review


Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge were both good steps for Intel, but Haswell and Broadwell are the designs that Apple truly wanted.

To be quite honest, the hardware in the rMBP isn’t enough to deliver a consistently smooth experience across all applications. At 2880 x 1800 most interactions are smooth but things like zooming windows or scrolling on certain web pages is clearly sub-30fps. At the higher scaled resolutions, since the GPU has to render as much as 9.2MP, even UI performance can be sluggish. There’s simply nothing that can be done at this point - Apple is pushing the limits of the hardware we have available today, far beyond what any other OEM has done. Future iterations of the Retina Display MacBook Pro will have faster hardware with embedded DRAM that will help mitigate this problem. But there are other limitations: many elements of screen drawing are still done on the CPU, and as largely serial architectures their ability to scale performance with dramatically higher resolutions is limited.
Click to expand...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6023/the-nextgen-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review/8

Whereas I would consider the rMBP experience under Lion to be borderline unacceptable, everything is significantly better under Mountain Lion. Don’t expect buttery smoothness across the board, you’re still asking a lot of the CPU and GPU, but it’s a lot better.
Click to expand...
 
I don't know, i'm typing on my awesome new retina and I sure wouldn't want to wait for anything LOL
 
I read the AnandTech review (all of it) and I was very surprised to find that a lot of things haven't yet been polished, but is that really an issue of the software or hardware?

Of course, it could have easily been fixed with better hardware, but I doubt Apple would release this product without knowing they could fix it later via software upgrades.

About when will the Haswell rMBPs come out? Q4 2013?
 
Panini said:
I read the AnandTech review (all of it) and I was very surprised to find that a lot of things haven't yet been polished, but is that really an issue of the software or hardware?

Of course, it could have easily been fixed with better hardware, but I doubt Apple would release this product without knowing they could fix it later via software upgrades.

About when will the Haswell rMBPs come out? Q4 2013?
Click to expand...

If it's that laggy on the gpu end, Apple may have to eat some battery life and make the gpu switching more aggressive in favor of the NVidia graphics. This could be done via an update. It could be just a collection of smaller bugs and driver issues that collectively look like a bigger problem. Give it a month or two. Haswell will most likely be launched by late in the first half. I wouldn't expect much prior to summer.

I meant to note that is from tech site rumors on Ivy Bridge E and Haswell dates. If you're even debating this, you probably don't need a new computer right now.

ixodes said:
It's pure speculation & a huge waste of time. Once it becomes real, then we'll know what it's like. Very few revs live up to the hype.
Click to expand...

While that is true, Intel has posted bigger gains toward their lower levels when transitioning architecture compared to die shrinks given that they're staying with similar core counts on the mobile chips. If the OP is already debating waiting a year, does it really sound like he needs a new computer today?
 
Panini said:
As far as processors go, I'm pretty content, so I'm not as worried about Haswell as I am about the next-gen graphics cards. The 650m is barely enough for my needs and if a truly significant graphics card rework is coming up then it's worth the wait, but is that going to happen or did Nvidia just have its "tock" with Kepler?
Click to expand...

Well, Kepler is a new architecture (although an evolutionary one), if that is what you ask. And from what I read, the 650m should be actually called 660m, as its clocked significantly higher than the 'regular' 650m. Currently, there is probably no faster card within similar thermal specification. In one year, things may change. If I may ask, what kind of software do you run that 650m is pushed to its limits? Benchmarks show that is has no problems even with most demanding games on reasonable resolution settings.
 
the new rmbp is like the mba when it came out: a test subject. it is not completely polished, but it shows what the future can hold.
 
thekev said:
If it's that laggy on the gpu end, Apple may have to eat some battery life and make the gpu switching more aggressive in favor of the NVidia graphics. This could be done via an update. It could be just a collection of smaller bugs and driver issues that collectively look like a bigger problem. Give it a month or two. Haswell will most likely be launched by late in the first half. I wouldn't expect much prior to summer.

I meant to note that is from tech site rumors on Ivy Bridge E and Haswell dates. If you're even debating this, you probably don't need a new computer right now.
Click to expand...
Anand also said a lot of the choppiness was fixed by installing Mountain Lion, so what's to say they can't improve it further through software alone? GPU switching is technically a hardware change since it isn't optimising available resources in any way (the way I see it), and I would hate to have the dGPU kick in for simple things like scrolling - isn't that why the iGPU is there in the first place?

The reason I am thinking this through thoroughly is because I am a high school student, and waiting a single year can mean a lot. Right not I have a windows computer but I have used the 2011 MBP and can confidently say that it increases my productivity significantly.

I am on the verge of "needing" a new computer which is why this decision is especially tough for me.


leman said:
Well, Kepler is a new architecture (although an evolutionary one), if that is what you ask. And from what I read, the 650m should be actually called 660m, as its clocked significantly higher than the 'regular' 650m. Currently, there is probably no faster card within similar thermal specification. In one year, things may change. If I may ask, what kind of software do you run that 650m is pushed to its limits? Benchmarks show that is has no problems even with most demanding games on reasonable resolution settings.
Click to expand...

I did read about Apple's 650m being clocked higher than usual (which is why it was especially difficult finding benchmark results for it). Even so, I have found it struggles under especially demanding games such as Crysis and Skyrim - especially with high quality textures (which usually demand a lot of VRAM, more than the 1GB supplied by the 650m).
 
MR1324 said:
the new rmbp is like the mba when it came out: a test subject. it is not completely polished, but it shows what the future can hold.
Click to expand...
+1 to this. And to be honest I'm happy for it to be this way. I'd prefer this new technology out in people's hands now rather than a year and a half down the track, when there'd be just as many teething problems, they'd just be different to what we have today. First iterations are always a gamble.
 
Panini said:
Anand also said a lot of the choppiness was fixed by installing Mountain Lion, so what's to say they can't improve it further through software alone? GPU switching is technically a hardware change since it isn't optimising available resources in any way (the way I see it), and I would hate to have the dGPU kick in for simple things like scrolling - isn't that why the iGPU is there in the first place?

The reason I am thinking this through thoroughly is because I am a high school student, and waiting a single year can mean a lot. Right not I have a windows computer but I have used the 2011 MBP and can confidently say that it increases my productivity significantly.

I am on the verge of "needing" a new computer which is why this decision is especially tough for me.
Click to expand...

Ah okay. I am curious how it will increase productivity. These days with most applications that run under either OS, the difference in experience is minimal once you're in the application. 2011 did bump cpu power considerably on the notebook side of things, at least in terms of cpu power. Desktops are still much easier/cheaper to keep up to date if you're strictly looking for gaming power. Obviously that doesn't appeal to everyone.

Just remember computers are sunken costs. Some guys flip these things annually, but if new features trickle down to the $1800 model or a 13" version comes out, used values tank. Regarding productivity, it matters where your current one is holding you back.


Panini said:
I did read about Apple's 650m being clocked higher than usual (which is why it was especially difficult finding benchmark results for it). Even so, I have found it struggles under especially demanding games such as Crysis and Skyrim - especially with high quality textures (which usually demand a lot of VRAM, more than the 1GB supplied by the 650m).
Click to expand...

This is one area where Apple skimps a bit. Look at the early 2011 macbook pro that started with 256MB. It was still $1800. The mini which came out later that year is still stuck with 256MB in its discrete version. It seems like they hold out as long as possible on bumping memory of any kind. Also it doesn't matter if those games saturate a full 2GB. It typically goes by a factor of two although gpus sometimes turn up odd numbers.
 
I read on the forums that while the step up from Sandy to Ivy was a decent boost, the step up from Ivy to Haswell is going to be huge. It was by some guy that sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

Quite frankly, I think the technology we have at this point is good enough to satisfy 99% of the users on this forum, myself included. The current MBP (retina or classical) can do just about everything I want it to. Why wait for Haswell?

Sure, Haswell will have better benchmark performances, but you'll most likely never be able to tell the difference in performance between Haswell and Ivy. Besides that, perhaps better battery life? Maybe sort out the kinks of rMBP. Better fan noise possibly. None of that is worth waiting another year for.
 
the waiting game.. it will never end.. Like Anand has said, if you are like me (change from 08/09 mbp), than rMBP is absolutely fast. But if you have 2011, you better start the waiting game :p
 
If you keep waiting for the next best thing, you'll never buy anything so why not get the best you can afford now and enjoy it :)

Haswell sounds good but it's more for servers from what I have read so far.
 
 
nuckinfutz said:
Haswell is supposed to be power efficient and a graphic powerhouse

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/02/08/haswell-is-a-graphics-monster/

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/04/02/haswells-gpu-prowess-is-due-to-crystalwell/

http://vr-zone.com/articles/haswell...r-just-another-small-step-forward-/14399.html

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Hasw...Thanks-to-Crystalwell-Technology-263569.shtml
Click to expand...

Yes and it still won't be as good as a Nvidia GPU. So forget Haswell.

Discrete GPU's are 10 years ahead of anything intel even can dream of today.

Intel has failed and failed and failed again on the IGP. Why people expect miracles is beyond me. Even at 28nm the 680GTX Desktop GPU uses more power than an entire MBP at Full load. You need a 680GTX to run games on high detail settings at 2550x1600 let alone 2880x1800.

It will be minor miracle to get a desktop performance discrete GPU into a notebook let alone a poor desktop performance GPU onto the CPU Die.
 
thekev said:
Ah okay. I am curious how it will increase productivity. These days with most applications that run under either OS, the difference in experience is minimal once you're in the application. 2011 did bump cpu power considerably on the notebook side of things, at least in terms of cpu power. Desktops are still much easier/cheaper to keep up to date if you're strictly looking for gaming power. Obviously that doesn't appeal to everyone.

Just remember computers are sunken costs. Some guys flip these things annually, but if new features trickle down to the $1800 model or a 13" version comes out, used values tank. Regarding productivity, it matters where your current one is holding you back.




This is one area where Apple skimps a bit. Look at the early 2011 macbook pro that started with 256MB. It was still $1800. The mini which came out later that year is still stuck with 256MB in its discrete version. It seems like they hold out as long as possible on bumping memory of any kind. Also it doesn't matter if those games saturate a full 2GB. It typically goes by a factor of two although gpus sometimes turn up odd numbers.
Click to expand...
Yes, I do find that if a product needs trimming that the GPU is usually the first target in most Apple products. The 650m is, in my opinion, a huge step up from what Apple used to give us, which is why I thought that Apple is finally ready to step up their graphics game and offer the best of 2013. So it really comes down to what is the best of 2013, and if Nvidia has something big tucked away.

As for productivity, the features OS X provides to be more organised is a big plus for me as it gives me less things to be distracted by.

Suno said:
I read on the forums that while the step up from Sandy to Ivy was a decent boost, the step up from Ivy to Haswell is going to be huge. It was by some guy that sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

Quite frankly, I think the technology we have at this point is good enough to satisfy 99% of the users on this forum, myself included. The current MBP (retina or classical) can do just about everything I want it to. Why wait for Haswell?

Sure, Haswell will have better benchmark performances, but you'll most likely never be able to tell the difference in performance between Haswell and Ivy. Besides that, perhaps better battery life? Maybe sort out the kinks of rMBP. Better fan noise possibly. None of that is worth waiting another year for.
Click to expand...
What I'm afraid of is if Haswell is so much more advanced than Ivy that applications designed for Haswell will not be able to run smoothly under Ivy. I know that Core 2 Duo can still perform surprisingly well with modern applications, but all this hype about Haswell has gotten me a bit curious as to just how big it will be.

pandamonia said:
Yes and it still won't be as good as a Nvidia GPU. So forget Haswell.

Discrete GPU's are 10 years ahead of anything intel even can dream of today.

Intel has failed and failed and failed again on the IGP. Why people expect miracles is beyond me. Even at 28nm the 680GTX Desktop GPU uses more power than an entire MBP at Full load. You need a 680GTX to run games on high detail settings at 2550x1600 let alone 2880x1800.

It will be minor miracle to get a desktop performance discrete GPU into a notebook let alone a poor desktop performance GPU onto the CPU Die.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know that, but if the next GPU offers even a 50% performance increase (assuming we're not bottlenecked by CPU, that's 20fps -> 30fps) then I'll be more than willing to wait.



Basically what I want to know is just how significant Haswell and the next-gen mobile GPUs will be. I know it's impossible to tell for now, but I've found myself oblivious to important tech news far too often, so even obvious facts are appreciated.
 
Hell no!

Intel is never going to release an architecture that is amazing, its always going to be incremental.

Jump on whenever you need a device. Once you jump on, you can probably skip one or two generation of updates by Intel.

M
 
I actually wonder what you are discussing about. The Ivy-Retina Macbook has a pixel density of about 220 dpi, this means that your eye is unable to differ between the pixels. Regarding the Retina-Display there will not be any improvements which can be seen by the human eye.

Haswell is only a performance upgrade and will most likely obtain the Retina-Experience with lesser effort. It has been said that Mountain Lion increases the usability of the 2012 rMBR... so basically there is no point in waiting a year for Haswell to arrive.

There is only one reason for waiting... and that is if you want to "play" video games in the Retina Native resolution. Everything else is possible with the ivy bridge + 650m.
 
pandamonia said:
Discrete GPU's are 10 years ahead of anything intel even can dream of today.
Click to expand...

Oh really? The HD3000 made entry level discrete GPUs redundant for most people and the HD4000 improved on that by ~50% a growth rate you don't see in the discrete GPU market. All of this with no price increase for the consumer.

They aren't competing with power sucking high end cards, they are competing with low end cards and they are doing a damn good job.
 
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