24 hours of run time seems like too much. I don't believe it 'till I see it, but I think I'll wait for it just in case. Intel announced that the battery life will be greatly improved. Even if we don't get 24 hours, we may get some additional 2 or 3 hours, and that would be really nice.
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Worth waiting for Haswell?
- Thread starter Panini
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24 hours of run time seems like too much. I don't believe it 'till I see it, but I think I'll wait for it just in case. Intel announced that the battery life will be greatly improved. Even if we don't get 24 hours, we may get some additional 2 or 3 hours, and that would be really nice.
I really don't understand your surpreme hatred for Intel IGPs. Yes the GMA950 in the first run of core duo macbooks were serious POS, but they've come a long way. Considering Haswell will be 100% faster or more than the current HD4000, that's a much bigger 'quantum leap' than the 650M which is only a 50% improvement. Also, while AMD's IGP are better than Intel ATM, they're still not good enough to even compete with mid-range discrete GPU's and their mobile CPU's are PATHETIC and barely keep up with high end core2duo parts from 3-4 years ago let alone the current quad core ivy bridge.
in the case of RMBP, its not simply a case of waiting for the next machine for better specs. it directly affects the functionality of the retina display itself.
ML supposedly fixes a few issues with UI lag but it doesn't make it as smooth as one would be used to on older macbooks (according to anandtech), so the main reason to hold off is to wait for hardware that can ACTUALLY power the retina display smoothly.
if the next iphone had even slight UI lag and isn't as relatively smooth as my 4s, i'd be severely pissed off.
ML supposedly fixes a few issues with UI lag but it doesn't make it as smooth as one would be used to on older macbooks (according to anandtech), so the main reason to hold off is to wait for hardware that can ACTUALLY power the retina display smoothly.
if the next iphone had even slight UI lag and isn't as relatively smooth as my 4s, i'd be severely pissed off.
There will be always some thing 'new' and we will always have the question 'what if' in today's technology world. Sandy, ivy, Haswell, then many more to come.
My suggestion is just go with whatever is up today and think about later's tech when you need a newer model in the future.
My suggestion is just go with whatever is up today and think about later's tech when you need a newer model in the future.
haswell a game changer?
sooo... we all know / expect (i have a 2.6 retina and ML myself) that even if using the current dedicated gpu (650m) in the retina explicitly is not gonna make everything run 'smoothly', you're saying that waiting for haswell actually will power the retina perfectly? yea, that makes sense, haha!
even if intel makes haswells igp run two times faster than ivys igp, it'll still be way behind of any of the better dedicated gpus that are currently being manufactured by nvidia or amd.
haswell will provide a bit more power in the sense of GHz (as in every cycle), will reduce power consuption further (which of course is always a good thing) and it's igp will also be faster but it will never ever get rid of retinas current 'performance' issues.
being a software developer myself I suspect and know about software / api issues but apple with take care of that and will provide means to offload more and more that still gets done by the cpu to the gpus.
haswell won't be any game changer. it's just another (not saying worthless, though) iteration.
just my 5 cent.
sooo... we all know / expect (i have a 2.6 retina and ML myself) that even if using the current dedicated gpu (650m) in the retina explicitly is not gonna make everything run 'smoothly', you're saying that waiting for haswell actually will power the retina perfectly? yea, that makes sense, haha!
even if intel makes haswells igp run two times faster than ivys igp, it'll still be way behind of any of the better dedicated gpus that are currently being manufactured by nvidia or amd.
haswell will provide a bit more power in the sense of GHz (as in every cycle), will reduce power consuption further (which of course is always a good thing) and it's igp will also be faster but it will never ever get rid of retinas current 'performance' issues.
being a software developer myself I suspect and know about software / api issues but apple with take care of that and will provide means to offload more and more that still gets done by the cpu to the gpus.
haswell won't be any game changer. it's just another (not saying worthless, though) iteration.
just my 5 cent.
The problem is the not the 'horsepower' of the IGP/650M as the 650M easily handles 3 screens at once which is much more pixels than the retina screen. The problem is the built-in hardware scalers don't have the non-standard rMBP's resolution hard-coded on the silicon, so the CPU has to do some of the scaling. Supposedly, Haswell and the next nvidia refresh is supposed to rectify this issue so the cpu utilization will go back down to pre rMBP levels.
fine with that but as far as i know, currently only tv's ad displays consist of some sort of 'hardware scalers'. modern systems have always done that in software by using ***** like direct2d or coregraphics on the mac. matrox sells some hardware scaler add-on card but that's not even a real graphics card (yet) and is only supposed to be used for hd/sd conversion. needs its own pci-x slot, too.
anyways and well, i had a look into intels cpu reference (even though i don't fully get everything in there) for haswell and couldn't find anything about some 'hardware scaler' in their igp. not sure about nvidias or amd plans, though.
do you have more serious information about those upcoming 'hardware scalers'?
btw and as you say: my amd x5870 serves three displays (two 2560 x 1440 and one 1600x1200) display without any hassle at all. of course, it's faster than the 650m but the 650m, if properly used, should have no problem at all rendering the retina resolution in time. safari 6 shows what can be done by offloading even basic stuff to the gpu and thus accelerating what has to be drawn on screen.
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I love how you claim that haswell offers 100% increase in GPU performance.
Haswell is under NDA and there arent even Engineering samples in the hands of testers yet.
Let me be clear when i say that 100% increase on nothing isnt much of an increase.
Haswell also moves a number of other features onto the CPU Die, Ivybrige has 1 billion transistors currently and the average Nvidia GPU has 700-800 million.
Considering that intel has hardly any decent graphics kudos even if they did make a giant 1.7 billion transistor CPU/GPU chip with all the other stuff intel is cramming onto there. You would need some way to keep it cool running at 100%
Haswell is a 22nm Part and if you take a look at the rMBP you will see the cooling that system needs even with the 2 chips having its own heatsink and fans.
Its physically impossible at 22nm
When you get to 15nm and below then so do Nvidia and those chips get more and more powerful.
Games get more and more demanding... the move to Retina is proof that quality is not fixed.
The Intel IGP sadly will never be good enough in my eyes. i use the IGP for basic stuff to extend my battery and run cool when im just messing around.
There is always room for a GPU in every computer even 11" ones.
Id rather pay the extra £100 for a good GPU than pay the Apple tax on the other upgrades apples sells.
displaying a bunch of pixels is not the same thing as having to scale specific elements constantly on screen. obviously there has ALWAYS been high resolution (2560x1440) displays and cards that power it. but that has NOTHING to do with actually having to scale pixels constantly which takes more power.
and besides, you're talking about the 650m having to run constantly in order to power the retina display. what about the hd4000 then?
I'm guessing that Haswell will be perfectly suited to the Airs and the Pro's will keep their dedicated for at least another couple of release cycles. If the Pro's loose their dedicated GPU then Apple has a real problem in distinguishing its notebook range.
I think the 13" Pro will show if this is going to be the case. If they manage to squeeze a dedicated GPU in then I expect the trend to follow next year. Of course they might say that the only screen size a pro consumer would want to use would be a 15+ and then the 13" is no more but thats risky. We all want portability and power! Personally I think that 2 Pro's and 2 Air's is a nice balance.
Air=Intel + Discrete
Pro=Intel + Dedicated
All assumptions of course
As for the decision to wait? The rMBP is already a superb bit of kit. The latest CPU and a very nice dedicated part. It's battery life, screen and performance is stellar!
The so called performance problems? Seriously, you are joking right? It's a very fast machine!
I think the 13" Pro will show if this is going to be the case. If they manage to squeeze a dedicated GPU in then I expect the trend to follow next year. Of course they might say that the only screen size a pro consumer would want to use would be a 15+ and then the 13" is no more but thats risky. We all want portability and power! Personally I think that 2 Pro's and 2 Air's is a nice balance.
Air=Intel + Discrete
Pro=Intel + Dedicated
All assumptions of course
As for the decision to wait? The rMBP is already a superb bit of kit. The latest CPU and a very nice dedicated part. It's battery life, screen and performance is stellar!
The so called performance problems? Seriously, you are joking right? It's a very fast machine!
so you think apple did all of that software scaling work for nothing then if they can just push more to the gpu? that seems kind of odd to me.
With a battery slice that also adds considerable weight and cost to the laptop.
Without the slice? Nothing like the 24 hours claimed.
I'm actually being conservative as many places are expecting 200% increase in performance over HD4000. Biggest reason is the addition of a dedicated 'L4' memory cache for the internal GPU. Also, reading your post leads me to believe you really don't use your laptop on battery power like most of us MBP users do. The best 3rd party tool to come out was gfxcardstatus. Before, my MBP would infuriate me when it would switch to the AMD GPU when I was using chrome. This would lead to losing over 1 hour of battery life. The iGPU is great as it gives me awesome mobile battery life, decent performance in web browsing, and finally can hand it over to the AMD GPU when I'm plugged into the mains for gaming. It's a win-win and Apple's implementation is light years ahead compared to window's laptops.
Windows has Optimus.
I use the IGP all the time.
Intel is lightyears behind AMD and even further behind Nvidia.
No one is throwing around Haswell GPU performance figures because its under NDA.
By the time Haswell is available there will be something newer and greater on the horizon. As many have said before, buy what you need when you need. I'm currently waiting for the new iMac because it's not sensible to buy this close to a refresh (hopefully), but other than that waiting is just a world of pain.
Damn it.
After reading through the posts again about what Haswell has to offer (24 hours battery life?) I feel even more torn between making a decision.
If, like one of the posters mentioned, the scaling issue is something that needs to be "hardcoded into the silicon" then it would mean it requires a hardware fix (i.e current rMBPs could not benefit). Can somebody clear these things up?
Thanks
After reading through the posts again about what Haswell has to offer (24 hours battery life?) I feel even more torn between making a decision.
If, like one of the posters mentioned, the scaling issue is something that needs to be "hardcoded into the silicon" then it would mean it requires a hardware fix (i.e current rMBPs could not benefit). Can somebody clear these things up?
Thanks
Agreed. There's always going to be something new on the horizon, but if you spend your time waiting for the next, new piece of technology you're always just going to be disappointed with whatever you choose. If you need a Mac, get one and enjoy it-the new retina macbook pro is amazing! If you don't, wait until you need one and then grab something with the latest technology available.
once again, this is not about 'waiting for the next greatest thing' but waiting for actual technology to be able to run retina display optimally. right now, according to anandtech, the current hardware in the MBRP can't run it smoothly even with ML.
I suppose if your in dire need for a new macbook, it'd be worth getting, but if not, then don't rush for it.
I say don't rush for it, because I've read a few reviews where they have found that the software available for the retina displays isn't optimized properly, just as most iOS software wasn't when the i4 just came out.
I say don't rush for it, because I've read a few reviews where they have found that the software available for the retina displays isn't optimized properly, just as most iOS software wasn't when the i4 just came out.
That's the thing with technology, I suppose. Well, I have came on this forum less and less as I saw a guy with 5 Powerbook G4s in a setup. Woah, I suppose there's always going to be someone with more gear than you.
I may buy a retina Macbook Pro next year though.
Waiting for actual technology to be able to run Retina Display optimally = Waiting for the next greatest thing
Calling poo by any other name is still poo.
Try running the MBPR at its native non-scaled resolution. Also "run it smoothly" is relative; you might need to see 30fps, I don't, does that mean I'm wrong?
To the OP: if you keep waiting for something better, you will never buy anything, and there is always something better in the future.