Would You Buy A 15" MacBook Air?

[ixodes]

I don't like the iPad and Airs can not do everything I want a notebook to do.

If Apple kills the MacBook Pro and the Mac Pro I'll be bummed.

I can appreciate what an iPad or MBA represent and how they fit into Apples lineup, yet I too hate to see the possible decline and phasing out of the MBP & Mac Pro models.

From my vantage point, that will truly change the face of Apple. It will reinforce why Apple Computer changed their name to Apple Inc. Finally it will further validate & prove Apples full commitment to continue to grow & dominate the consumer electronics space.

Oh sure, it could be argued that the significant increase in Apple laptop sales proves they are committed to computers & iToyz, but the moment they hit whatever sales goal they've set for themselves, I can see them winding down the computer side of the business.

While I seriously hope I'm wrong, I've read too much that indicates in one way or another, that the days of enjoying a powerful professional grade Apple laptop or desktop are coming to an end sooner rather than later.

 

[psykick5]

I appreciate your opinion, but why? Is it the lack of optical drive or the lack of hard drive?

I personally think that they'd hemorrhage professional customers more if they went a pure-Air route. That being said, I don't think Apple is too concerned about their professional users.

Definitely the hard drive. I for one can't have both a Lion partition and a W7 partition with enough space for all my stuff in either. Preferably I'd like a 128GB SSD + 1TB HDD. A sole 256GB SSD would be a huge deal breaker.

 

[thundersteele]

With two blade SSDs you could fit up to 1 TB of SSD storage into a 15'' Air, and still use less space than a 2.5'' disc drive. The new 20nm NANDs will allow up to 2 TB in 2013.

Right now storage/$ is a major issue with SSDs. In 1-2 years from now, this will be much less of an issue.

 

[jamezr]

Why would you need to carry one around? Are you really going around in public burning discs?

yes! I burn data and video all the time. We just spent the weekend in the mountains playing in the snow. I captured video with my iPhone and my wife and sons did as well. I then combined all the pieces into one movie of the whole trip. i did it while we were still there and burned it so that relatives we were visting could have a copy. This is a normal occurrence for me. We capture video and then burn to discs as well as keeping digital copies. the discs can then be watched or given to other relatives that are aging and or are very low tech and cannot retrieve the video from the web. Carting around an external optical drive is not going to fit my needs....and they are slower.

 

[arctic]

If anyone's wondering why the second choice has more votes, the answer is simple: better GPU + thin enclosure = oven. The third option seems smart for the time being but a few months from now when SSD prices will go down, SSD will be the norm therefore hybrids will quickly be discarded. Apple always considers the future.

I somehow have the feeling the 15" will utilize dual SSD blades at an affordable price (thanks to Anobit). I just hope the body thickness won't be too limiting for good thermal management of, let's say, 7750M or 7770M.

 

[throAU]

2c:

a 15" air is pointless. If i want something that big, i want to be able to expand it, I want proper 3d video, and i want plenty of ports.

If i want something portable, i'll get a 13" machine.

a 15" Macbook air that can't have memory upgrades is a waste of time imho.

 

[Warhawk15]

I vote for the 15" air.
Not saying the odd is worthless or anything, I just don't need/use it, but obviously a lot of people still do.
Having those extra ports I don't use seems useless to me, but not saying I would complain if I had them.
Of course I'd only get the 15" if it had 8gb of RAM, but even then, it probably won't be replaceable, and will be like $200 upgrade, while it would be much cheaper in a macbook pro doing it yourself...
I've gotten used to the intel hd3000, and it suits me fine for the games I play. I don't need to have high settings for every game to enjoy it.
The quad core(8 threads) would be nice, but it wouldn't benefit me that much.
I don't need a ton of space, so a 128gb ssd is perfectly fine with me. I use an external 1tb drive for lossless music/dvds/pictures/time machine, etc...

Only reason I see me wanting a MBP for now is the ease and cheapness of upgrading the ram.
We'll see what Apple shows us.

 

[rockyroad55]

I vote for the 15" air.
Not saying the odd is worthless or anything, I just don't need/use it, but obviously a lot of people still do.
Having those extra ports I don't use seems useless to me, but not saying I would complain if I had them.
Of course I'd only get the 15" if it had 8gb of RAM, but even then, it probably won't be replaceable, and will be like $200 upgrade, while it would be much cheaper in a macbook pro doing it yourself...
I've gotten used to the intel hd3000, and it suits me fine for the games I play. I don't need to have high settings for every game to enjoy it.
The quad core(8 threads) would be nice, but it wouldn't benefit me that much.
I don't need a ton of space, so a 128gb ssd is perfectly fine with me. I use an external 1tb drive for lossless music/dvds/pictures/time machine, etc...

Only reason I see me wanting a MBP for now is the ease and cheapness of upgrading the ram.
We'll see what Apple shows us.

Looks like you just want a bigger screen. A lot of us use the 15" for what it is capable of with the extra ports and dedicated GPU.

 

[Warhawk15]

Looks like you just want a bigger screen. A lot of us use the 15" for what it is capable of with the extra ports and dedicated GPU.

Yea, that and the ram. =D

 

[Prodo123]

The back would probably be pretty close to the same thickness as the MBP now... the thinness comes from the tapered design. With the back retaining a decent amount of thickness, it could retain some key fans to keep the body cool, drawing air in through the side ports and keyboard and out through the back. Remember, in the hybrid design, we're not talking about needing this to be AS thin as a MacBook Air... just thinner than a MacBook Pro, which could just mean a tapered design.

So thin out the battery and expect better results, that's what you're saying.
There's much more to cooling a laptop than simply keeping fans. The current MBP already has the minimal thickness required to keep both a GPU and quad-core CPU, tapered or not.

Imagination shatters when faced with reality, my friend.

 

[longofest]

So thin out the battery and expect better results, that's what you're saying.
There's much more to cooling a laptop than simply keeping fans. The current MBP already has the minimal thickness required to keep both a GPU and quad-core CPU, tapered or not.

Imagination shatters when faced with reality, my friend.

No... I'm saying you could get thinness from the removal of two large components: the optical drive and the hard drive (SSD sticks are much smaller than a traditional 2.5" HD).

By removing those two components, you can re-arrange the remaining components to get a tapered design.

----------

If anyone's wondering why the second choice has more votes, the answer is simple: better GPU + thin enclosure = oven. The third option seems smart for the time being but a few months from now when SSD prices will go down, SSD will be the norm therefore hybrids will quickly be discarded. Apple always considers the future.

I somehow have the feeling the 15" will utilize dual SSD blades at an affordable price (thanks to Anobit). I just hope the body thickness won't be too limiting for good thermal management of, let's say, 7750M or 7770M.

Did you actually read the first post? The Hybrid doesn't mean a "hybrid" Hard disk/SSD - it means a hybrid of functionality. It would have an Air-like SSD stick, but Pro-like graphics and CPU, with a compromise form factor to deal with the necessary cooling involved with keeping around a quad-core chip and dedicated graphics.

 

[Prodo123]

No... I'm saying you could get thinness from the removal of two large components: the optical drive and the hard drive (SSD sticks are much smaller than a traditional 2.5" HD).

By removing those two components, you can re-arrange the remaining components to get a tapered design.

Sigh...I already stated this enough times.
A laptop isn't as simple as a puzzle!! Look at the logic board of the current Macs. They have the CPUs in the back of the body in the center, with a GPU right in front of it. In order to efficiently use the space on logic boards, both CPU and GPU must be in the center of the logic board, which makes sense because they are the central point of the board.

By tapering the design, the GPU, which is in the direct center of the laptop, will be stuck in an excessively thin space. The CPU will probably be fine, since it's in the back, but for the GPU in front of it, the body will taper down and make heat issues.

Then as you said, we should be able to rearrange components and make everything better, riiiiight? No, you can't. To make the most out of the heat dissipation effect that the aluminum unibody provides, Apple puts the hottest components in the center of the laptop to maximize dissipation. That way, heat spreads all the way throughout the body instead of a little cramped corner, and the result is a warm body instead of a scorching corner. Move the GPU to the space gained by the lack of an ODD, and alas, this balance is broken and the heat is now concentrated on the right side of the laptop. This leads to an even hotter computer.

Then there's the issue of the battery. The Air can fit such a big battery in such a thin body because it has an ULV processor with almost no heat issues. But, the 15" hybrid Air/Pro will have a full-wattage 35W/45W processor generating enormous amounts of heat. This means it can easily overheat the battery, and it being in such a confined space, possibly explode it. Not good.

And the heaviest component in a laptop is arguably the battery. With such an enormous battery, the 15" Air/Pro hybrid's improved thinness will end up being useless in terms of portability since the battery will make it heavier than even the current 17" MBP.

 

[ender land]

I've done some analysis on my professional blog (TechPerfect) and I think that a 15" MacBook Air would end up looking a lot more like today's airs than today's MacBook Pros.

ok, call me cynical... but duh?

 

[throAU]

Yea, that and the ram. =D

Here here.

Apple should go to 8gb RAM standard in new airs, and 16gb standard in the pro level gear.

16GB is like... 250 bucks now.... and 4gb just isn't anywhere near enough, let alone for a "pro" level machine.

 

[KohPhiPhi]

Disclaimer: I'm personally a very mobile-conscious user (I travel quite a bit), so I'd never buy a 15" (13" is my choice).

That being said, *if* I was to buy a 15" model, I'd go for a full MBP than a MBA. The reason for that is because 15" and 17" models are closer to be desktop-replacement than mobile laptops, and as a desktop-replacement I expect just that: desktop-replacement performance (beefy CPU, dedicated GPU, 16mb RAM, tons of storage space, etc).

Quite frankly, I don't really see the point of a 15" MBA.

 

[macuser2134]

Then as you said, we should be able to rearrange components and make everything better, riiiiight? No, you can't.

Perhaps YOU cant, but pretty sure that Apple Hardware team can. Those who have already proven themselves to be world-leading experts at this.

To make the most out of the heat dissipation effect that the aluminum unibody provides, Apple puts the hottest components in the center of the laptop to maximize dissipation. That way, heat spreads all the way throughout the body instead of a little cramped corner, and the result is a warm body instead of a scorching corner. Move the GPU to the space gained by the lack of an ODD, and alas, this balance is broken and the heat is now concentrated on the right side of the laptop. This leads to an even hotter computer.

The Apple engineers have inventive tricks to achieve the feats necessary. All seemingly impossible tasks. But its routine to them. Problem solved by Apple experts. No need to fret or worry. Its like magic, see? No need to explain.

Seriously though - here is another significant point to be aware of. 22nm Ivy Bridge shrink is mostly to make these CPUs idle considerably cooler than todays Sandy Bridge. The Ivy Bridge parts will be rated at 35 and 45 Watts. But thats not such an accurate reflection anymore of the CPUs thermal performance and behaviour. Bottom line is that Ivy Bridge (like-for-like TDPs) will probably run cooler overall. Apple Hardware team already have REAL access to the new chips to be testing their thermal designs under idle and load conditions. Only they really know for sure. We just have that single numeric 2-digit figure from Intel.

Also Mobile GPUs are slated to shrink from 40nm to 28nm this during year and also with significantly better idling / power management characteristics. If Apple were to aquire supply for those new GPUs aswell, then well...

 

[Erasmus]

Seriously though - here is another significant point to be aware of. 22nm Ivy Bridge shrink is mostly to make these CPUs idle considerably cooler than todays Sandy Bridge. The Ivy Bridge parts will be rated at 35 and 45 Watts. But thats not such an accurate reflection anymore of the CPUs thermal performance and behaviour. Bottom line is that Ivy Bridge (like-for-like TDPs) will probably run cooler overall. Apple Hardware team already have REAL access to the new chips to be testing their thermal designs under idle and load conditions. Only they really know for sure. We just have that single numeric 2-digit figure from Intel.

Yes, Ivy Bridge will run cooler than Sandy Bridge, especially when idling, or close to idle. But what about when it's being pushed to the max? Then it is going to draw 45W, or even more.

People also need to consider that Apple have already recently (early 2011) increased the max power draw by around 20W over the 2010 models. Apple's magic has already been worked.

Yes, if Apple is willing to invest in designing a new line of custom motherboards, and scrap both the disk drive and HDD, the computer could get a bit thinner, but really not all that much. Certainly nowhere near that of the MacBook Air. And it's not going to get much lighter. A HDD is only 150 grams, and an ODD about the same. Add 75g for an SSD, plus a small amount of extra battery, and all that lost weight is back.

The less radical, more favorable option is that the MBA will become more powerful, a 15" MBA MAY be added, and the MBPs will remain the same size and weight, but become significantly more powerful as well.

 

[Prodo123]

Perhaps YOU cant, but pretty sure that Apple Hardware team can. Those who have already proven themselves to be world-leading experts at this.



The Apple engineers have inventive tricks to achieve the feats necessary. All seemingly impossible tasks. But its routine to them. Problem solved by Apple experts. No need to fret or worry. Its like magic, see? No need to explain.

Seriously though - here is another significant point to be aware of. 22nm Ivy Bridge shrink is mostly to make these CPUs idle considerably cooler than todays Sandy Bridge. The Ivy Bridge parts will be rated at 35 and 45 Watts. But thats not such an accurate reflection anymore of the CPUs thermal performance and behaviour. Bottom line is that Ivy Bridge (like-for-like TDPs) will probably run cooler overall. Apple Hardware team already have REAL access to the new chips to be testing their thermal designs under idle and load conditions. Only they really know for sure. We just have that single numeric 2-digit figure from Intel.

Also Mobile GPUs are slated to shrink from 40nm to 28nm this during year and also with significantly better idling / power management characteristics. If Apple were to aquire supply for those new GPUs aswell, then well...

I post here, knowing that these forums are very pro-Apple and fanboy-centered at times (see:the list of top rated comments), but by no means am I an Apple fanboy. I support Apple products, and that's the only reason I post here: because I like the products, not the company.
Having said that, I rarely fall to Apple's "reality distortion field" which you are deeply in right now. Apple is just like any other company; it has the same level of engineers as its competitors like Samsung. Apple is not special. Just because an engineer works at Apple doesn't mean he can do what no one else can. No one can do the impossible, no matter how much the customer wants it.

Yes, Ivy Bridge will run cooler than Sandy Bridge, especially when idling, or close to idle. But what about when it's being pushed to the max? Then it is going to draw 45W, or even more.

People also need to consider that Apple have already recently (early 2011) increased the max power draw by around 20W over the 2010 models. Apple's magic has already been worked.

Yes, if Apple is willing to invest in designing a new line of custom motherboards, and scrap both the disk drive and HDD, the computer could get a bit thinner, but really not all that much. Certainly nowhere near that of the MacBook Air. And it's not going to get much lighter. A HDD is only 150 grams, and an ODD about the same. Add 75g for an SSD, plus a small amount of extra battery, and all that lost weight is back.

The less radical, more favorable option is that the MBA will become more powerful, a 15" MBA MAY be added, and the MBPs will remain the same size and weight, but become significantly more powerful as well.

Thank you for being rational!!

 

[thekev]

Perhaps YOU cant, but pretty sure that Apple Hardware team can. Those who have already proven themselves to be world-leading experts at this.

He actually described an engineering problem quite well. In the end they need to make a machine that functions. If it means weird compromises that could hinder use, they make adjustments. It's not all simply design by objective, no matter matter how much Apple PR spins it that way. Apple may have very bright engineers, but every company faces design decisions. You may recall the heat complaints in the first macbook generation. You might recall the first macbook air which shipped with used a throttled version of the cpu that shipped in it. It's like I said, they have to make decisions on how they want to optimize it just like any other company. Also remember that this is a mass produced product, not just a one off. I expect they're really designing with Haswell in mind here, but Apple likes to push things out a generation early so that they can perfect the design before others catch on.

The Apple engineers have inventive tricks to achieve the feats necessary. All seemingly impossible tasks. But its routine to them. Problem solved by Apple experts. No need to fret or worry. Its like magic, see? No need to explain.

Seriously though - here is another significant point to be aware of. 22nm Ivy Bridge shrink is mostly to make these CPUs idle considerably cooler than todays Sandy Bridge. The Ivy Bridge parts will be rated at 35 and 45 Watts. But thats not such an accurate reflection anymore of the CPUs thermal performance and behaviour. Bottom line is that Ivy Bridge (like-for-like TDPs) will probably run cooler overall. Apple Hardware team already have REAL access to the new chips to be testing their thermal designs under idle and load conditions. Only they really know for sure. We just have that single numeric 2-digit figure from Intel.

Also Mobile GPUs are slated to shrink from 40nm to 28nm this during year and also with significantly better idling / power management characteristics. If Apple were to aquire supply for those new GPUs aswell, then well...

Mobile GPUs often come from a shrink of previous desktop designs. They've shrunk before. It doesn't guarantee anything here. For Ivy Bridge the quad cpus are 45W. You don't buy a laptop using them to allow them to idle constantly Given the amount of recent desktop displacement, you want a computer that runs smooth even when it's being pushed for longer periods.

The power management features were heavily geared toward extending battery life whenever possible without potentially castrating performance. I wouldn't expect significantly lower temperatures when the machine is busy although it would be excellent. Do a stress test on one of the current macbooks. They can approach 200F which is either at or about to hit throttling territory. The optical drive removal would give them space, but it wouldn't make up such a significant difference. Look at the macbook air. It has a smaller display, a non sata hard drive, soldered ram, and it still uses 17W cpus and integrated graphics. This design was by Apple's team. Yes they probably learned something from it, but they learned from the initial Air just to get to this point. If you try to do this with a much beefier rig, you'll have to give something up. This is what I mean by design choices. You choose to optimize in favor of form factor or in favor of greater power and options. In terms of ulv, they have all of those cpu options already covered.

 

[longofest]

Apple is just like any other company; it has the same level of engineers as its competitors like Samsung. Apple is not special. Just because an engineer works at Apple doesn't mean he can do what no one else can. No one can do the impossible, no matter how much the customer wants it.

I agree and disagree with you here... I do agree that we need to be careful not to buy into the "magical" marketing that Apple puts out when talking about engineering details, but on the other hand Apple has demonstrated that it's hardware engineers and industrial designers are a cut above the rest. In that way, Apple is special, in that it has managed to collect a special group of people that really are good at their jobs. They are still bound by laws of nature and physics, but when presented with a business goal like "make a laptop with x power in an enclosure of y proportions", they are the engineers that start coming up with ways to achieve the goal rather than listing the obstacles in their way. That's not to say they don't know what's in their way -- they just are the kind of people that have their eye on the prize.

Believe me... there are engineers with both types of attitudes, and the "can-do" attitude is often what separates great engineers from the pack.

----------

Sigh...I already stated this enough times.
A laptop isn't as simple as a puzzle!! Look at the logic board of the current Macs. They have the CPUs in the back of the body in the center, with a GPU right in front of it. In order to efficiently use the space on logic boards, both CPU and GPU must be in the center of the logic board, which makes sense because they are the central point of the board.

By tapering the design, the GPU, which is in the direct center of the laptop, will be stuck in an excessively thin space. The CPU will probably be fine, since it's in the back, but for the GPU in front of it, the body will taper down and make heat issues.

Then as you said, we should be able to rearrange components and make everything better, riiiiight? No, you can't. To make the most out of the heat dissipation effect that the aluminum unibody provides, Apple puts the hottest components in the center of the laptop to maximize dissipation. That way, heat spreads all the way throughout the body instead of a little cramped corner, and the result is a warm body instead of a scorching corner. Move the GPU to the space gained by the lack of an ODD, and alas, this balance is broken and the heat is now concentrated on the right side of the laptop. This leads to an even hotter computer.

Then there's the issue of the battery. The Air can fit such a big battery in such a thin body because it has an ULV processor with almost no heat issues. But, the 15" hybrid Air/Pro will have a full-wattage 35W/45W processor generating enormous amounts of heat. This means it can easily overheat the battery, and it being in such a confined space, possibly explode it. Not good.

And the heaviest component in a laptop is arguably the battery. With such an enormous battery, the 15" Air/Pro hybrid's improved thinness will end up being useless in terms of portability since the battery will make it heavier than even the current 17" MBP.

I have looked at the innards of the current MacBook pro as the reference for my hybrid design.

From this image, eliminate the optical drive and hard drive on the left. Move the battery over to where the optical drive was, and note it can be a bit wider and less long. The SSD stick fits about where the battery was, but close to the logic board.

Notice how you have freed up a lot of the room at the front of the device. The only thing in the upper third is the SSD stick, which is a thin component. This would allow for a tapered design.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you on this... I just wanted to point out that I wasn't just pulling the design out of my butt. In any case, the design won't see the light of day anyways, so no worries

 

[Prodo123]

I agree and disagree with you here... I do agree that we need to be careful not to buy into the "magical" marketing that Apple puts out when talking about engineering details, but on the other hand Apple has demonstrated that it's hardware engineers and industrial designers are a cut above the rest. In that way, Apple is special, in that it has managed to collect a special group of people that really are good at their jobs. They are still bound by laws of nature and physics, but when presented with a business goal like "make a laptop with x power in an enclosure of y proportions", they are the engineers that start coming up with ways to achieve the goal rather than listing the obstacles in their way. That's not to say they don't know what's in their way -- they just are the kind of people that have their eye on the prize.

Believe me... there are engineers with both types of attitudes, and the "can-do" attitude is often what separates great engineers from the pack.

----------



I have looked at the innards of the current MacBook pro as the reference for my hybrid design.

From this image, eliminate the optical drive and hard drive on the left. Move the battery over to where the optical drive was, and note it can be a bit wider and less long. The SSD stick fits about where the battery was, but close to the logic board.

Notice how you have freed up a lot of the room at the front of the device. The only thing in the upper third is the SSD stick, which is a thin component. This would allow for a tapered design.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you on this... I just wanted to point out that I wasn't just pulling the design out of my butt. In any case, the design won't see the light of day anyways, so no worries

Move the battery to where the ODD is, and the center of mass for the entire laptop is thrown off balance.
In the current design, the weight of the ODD and HDD balance the off-center battery.
Then look at the battery placement on the MBAs. It's symmetrical for a reason.

If the battery throws the weight of the computer off-center, then you will not be able to hold it in one hand and use it. It's the same concept as the Uzi; the center of mass of the gun is at the gun grip, allowing for prolonged one-hand use. Your design thus defeats the entire purpose of a laptop, which is a portable computer that you can use anywhere, even in your arms.

Then your taper design would result in a sharper edge, which contradicts what many say would be a fix to the MBP's sharp corners.

You end up freeing up useless room. The only practical use for that space would be another hard drive and/or more ports. If Apple can find space, it doesn't throw it away on a useless taper. It makes use of it.





Any more engineering fantasies that would like to get shot down by a teen?

 

[maflynn]

Move the battery to where the ODD is, and the center of mass for the entire laptop is thrown off balance.

You're thinking too linear. Just because the removal of the ODD means they can only move the battery to that one spot means they'll actually do that.

By altering the positions of all the components and dimensions of the logic board apple can change the dimensions and weight of the MBP. I'm not saying they should but losing the ODD means they have more flexibility in designing a smaller thinner laptop.

Personally, I would prefer the space for another drive, and I don't think apple is going to drop the optical drive quite yet.

 

[longofest]

Any more engineering fantasies that would like to get shot down by a teen?

Like I said... I'm done going back and forth with you on this... but this more personal comment was not necessary.

 

[rockyroad55]

Like I said... I'm done going back and forth with you on this... but this more personal comment was not necessary.

Yup that was an extremely condescending comment. I'm going to take all his posts a lot less seriously now.

 

[macuser2134]

Any more engineering fantasies that would like to get shot down by a teen?

Well that's really the kind of attitude I take issue with more than anything else. Its very negative comment on others ideas for an environment to allow innovation to take place. Imagine that kind of input in a place where people are actually trying to come up with new ways to solve these very challenging problems.

I also wanted to bring up the fact that I don't appreciate being told that I'm under some kind of "reality distortion field". I disagree with this even more so than being called an Apple fanboy. You tried to back up this comment by emphatically stating that Apple Engineers aren't really any better than Samsung engineers. Its not as simple as that.

Whether its the Apple engineers, the engineering team, or the overarching environment at Apple. The honest and undistorted truth is that Apple brought out their family of Unibody and Air designs before all the other manufacturers. For the last 1-2 years everyone else is left following those very sound technical and engineering innovations.

So to acknowledge the people at Apple who are responsible for this seemed fair credit. I said that they are world class leaders. However only in context regarding this small area under discussion. Perhaps you didn't fully get the joke. But its actually more of a joke what you are doing yourself. Which is to try and second-guess those people who have already proven themselves to be very competent at making these technically challenging objects for real. That is utterly the limit of my disagreement with the nature of your technical comments / views here. I have no set opinions about you, of what kind of a person you really are.