You're talking about a machine with 25% of the interior space of a Mac Pro... I'm not sure how much "expandability" you'll get out of something that size, especially considering the minimum size of an optical drive, at least two hard drive bays, a power supply, and at least two PCI cards. I'm not one to question Apple's industrial design ability, but they're limited by physics like the rest of us.
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Would you buy a midrange mac tower?
- Thread starter iMacZealot
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You're talking about a machine with 25% of the interior space of a Mac Pro... I'm not sure how much "expandability" you'll get out of something that size, especially considering the minimum size of an optical drive, at least two hard drive bays, a power supply, and at least two PCI cards. I'm not one to question Apple's industrial design ability, but they're limited by physics like the rest of us.
Umm, maybe stock RAM, but up to 4GB total.
250GB 7200 HDD, no notebook drives, and 2nd bay, otherwise who cares, get a Mini.
They will never offer an easy user replacable CPU, however the point of the 2 PCI slots, one for graphics is upgrading the graphics card and adding a tv tuner card or whatever else.
Only need 1 optical but I can't stress enough wanting 2 HDD bays.
As for size, 1/2 to 2/3s the height of a Mac Pro, same width, 1/2 to 2/3 the depth. I think the laws of physics would allow that.
Like people said, graphics card upgradeability.
But what I really wanted to say is: I already have a 20" monitor. If I get an iMac, and I only want one screen, should I throw mine away? I'm also guessing my monitor is better than the one in the iMac. So why should I have to pay for another monitor?
And if I want to get a new computer, I also have to get a new monitor. How can you not see the problem?
Annoying isn't it?
Every other consumer company in the world is desperately trying to find that next niche/massive product.
Apple, on the other hand don't seem to be interested in making more money from hardware sales.
And there defiantly not getting any more money from me until they release a consumer tower - my money is going on a self build PC - don't really want to but Apple solution is simply either too limited/underpowered or expensive.
I used to be a fanboy!
Still like Apple, but no longer affected by Steve's "reality distortion field".
That's an overpriced excuse of a tower, if I ever saw one. 1GB RAM? 7300GT? No PCIe? And "all this" for 1800-2000 dollars? I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but only an absolute retard would pay so much for so little. It would basically be a scam.
Here's what you get for 1100-1200 dollars in the God-awful PC world:
Case: Antec P150
PSU: Antec NeoHE 430W
Motherboard: ASUS P5B
CPU: Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz
CPU cooling: Scythe Ninja rev.B
Memory: 2GB DDR2-667
Graphics: Leadtek 7900GS 256MB
Audio: Soundblaster Audigy 4
Gigabit LAN: Integrated
Harddrive: Samsung 320GB (7200RPM, 16MB cache)
DVD: Samsung DVD-RW 16x SATA
Not only is this machine of great quality, but it's also more expandable and more feature rich. Also, it has much higher specced components than the proposed Apple mid-tower in the initial post.
I think that the specifications for the PC above would be a reasonable config for an Apple mid-tower offering. A reasonable price would be 1500 dollars. The base config should probably have less RAM, HDD space and possibly a slower CPU, but the price would of course also have to be lower. Maybe 1300 dollars? It's still more expensive than a comparable PC, but it's atleast not ridiculously overpriced. It would probably sell very well.
And, yeah, I own the PC specified above (with additional HD space and CPU at 3GHz).
That's an overpriced excuse of a tower, if I ever saw one. 1GB RAM? 7300GT? No PCIe? And "all this" for 1800-2000 dollars? I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but only an absolute retard would pay so much for so little. It would basically be a scam.
Here's what you get for 1100-1200 dollars in the God-awful PC world:
Case: Antec P150
PSU: Antec NeoHE 430W
Motherboard: ASUS P5B
CPU: Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz
CPU cooling: Scythe Ninja rev.B
Memory: 2GB DDR2-667
Graphics: Leadtek 7900GS 256MB
Audio: Soundblaster Audigy 4
Gigabit LAN: Integrated
Harddrive: Samsung 320GB (7200RPM, 16MB cache)
DVD: Samsung DVD-RW 16x SATA
Not only is this machine of great quality, but it's also more expandable and more feature rich. Also, it has much higher specced components than the proposed Apple mid-tower in the initial post.
I think that the specifications for the PC above would be a reasonable config for an Apple mid-tower offering. A reasonable price would be 1500 dollars. The base config should probably have less RAM, HDD space and possibly a slower CPU, but the price would of course also have to be lower. Maybe 1300 dollars? It's still more expensive than a comparable PC, but it's atleast not ridiculously overpriced. It would probably sell very well.
And, yeah, I own the PC specified above (with additional HD space and CPU at 3GHz).
Exactly.
For that price I got a better suggestion:
- Go to Arr!Bay
- Download a small file with a mysterious .torrent extension
- Open it with an app that mysteriously loads a bigger file into your computer
- Burn it onto a CD
- Enjoy your new "Mac"
In fact that is exactly what I did (Apple lawyers! Subpeona me!)
Until Apple releases a decent up to date Mac Pro or a midrange Mac all desktop models are crap, to put it bluntly. $1800 for those kinds of specifications, and Apple doesn't even have a courtesy of putting in a real graphics card? Hahaha, that's funny, but that is exactly how they are charging right now.
I would say no. Not if was $1700-1900. It would have to be cheaper. Even then, I doubt I'd buy one.
Truth! What I forgot to say was, I voted "I'd consider it", but I definitely wasn't talking about the computer mentioned in the initial post. I'm thinking along the lines of the one you mentioned at a similar price.
There are a few small kinks, but this machine is solely used for EyeTV and checking mail when I am home so I don't care less.
Does what it has to do perfectly while I wait for the line to be updated.
I certainly never implied that. There's a difference between operating with good business sense and making $10 and whoring yourself out to make $30 with no customer loyalty and nothing distinctive.
As soon as you start playing the latter game, you're going to lose. Yeah, you'll make more money while you're on top, but as soon as you fall, you get wiped out. So your entire MO becomes Microsoft or SCO-like--make it impossible for customers to avoid you.
If you're making a healthy profit, you don't try to over-reach. It's called sustainable development. It is precisely because they're motivated by profit that they don't offer a more complex and costly array of products.
It's also lacking the fact that it's OEM and therefore has no corporate overhead and it doesn't include the cost of software. That OEM machine needs at least $210 in software to make it a Mac; it needs a $25 Bluetooth adapter and a $50 Wifi card (yes, you can find these for cheaper, but if you want to compare Apples to Apples, it's a Netgear).
Add a 20" monitor (we'll say $250 and be generous to the PC side), keyboard and mouse ($60), and a webcam ($30).
So that $1200 PC is...$1835 before even getting to the remote and assuming it can use (very cheap) Apple software rather than more expensive Windows counterparts.
Meanwhile, the 20" iMac is $1499, plus $75 for another gig of RAM and a $20 differential in hard drive value. Is the better video card and higher power consumption worth $300 to you?
The bottom line is that the people who handpick components aren't going to be happy with ANY system Apple ever offers, because they're never going to have the variety of standard PC hardware market. I own both kinds of computers but it's absolutely farcical to accuse the iMac of being a bad value for consumers in general.
The CPU part would just be nice, but the rest if important. My graphics card is beginning to show it's age, so I have to buy a whole new computer. The RAM in the only expandable desktop Mac is ridiculously overpriced.
They don't have to, but it would be nice.
Which is exactly what they do, even if they don't want to.
Good for you. We're not you. We'd like something else.
No one's saying that. That's a straw man argument. We'd just like something everyone else provides that also runs OS X. Something cheaper than the Mac Pro with the specs to match. Something that isn't an all in one.
Just because you don't want one, and Apple doesn't feel like making one anymore (they used to) doesn't mean no one wants one. I'd buy one in a heart beat. And I'm obviously not alone.
How is that any different from a notebook, tablet, or SFF PC? There's only one kind of computer that doesn't have this problem, and Apple already sells a product for that market. There are many untapped areas of computing--why should they offer two products in an ever-diminishing segment?
As for RAM, how is it overpriced? It's the same RAM as used in any other computer and the price is exactly the same. There's no special Apple memory slot.
And precisely what they're supposed to do.
There it is! The irrational, quasi-religious obsession with Apple. I don't really mind when Philips, my preferred TV brand, loses out to a different brand on the occasional purchase. Having a cult following and brand loyalty is one thing, but this is absurd. Apple has no problem being profitable and finding customers for the products they do sell. If it ain't broke...
It most certainly is not. Every week there's a thread about some great product that Apple could dominate with if only they would see the light. Each time people talk about lost customers like it's their personal mission to expand Apple market share to 90% or as though it physically pains them to have to buy some other brand. See above.
Well that's just mutually exclusive. It can't be something everyone else provides if it runs OS X. The traditional desktop and the computing metaphor of a sum of discrete parts is dying. Apple has lead the charge away from that mentality and it would make absolutely no sense to go in the opposite direction.
Computers didn't originally come with anything on board. People resisted "paying extra" for onboard ethernet and sound, even if the add-in cards they had were inferior. Now it's cheaper to buy the all-in-one and not use it than to find something without the onboard components. Onboard graphics are increasingly prevalent and consistently improving. You don't pull out the parts of a toaster that still work when something breaks; you just buy a new toaster. It's a natural commoditization process, and the PC side of things is just doing it more slowly.
Of course you're not alone. Lots of people want lots of things. I want a real OS X media center that's better than MythTV. I'd also like to transfer my more comfortable seats from my last car to my current one, and to be able to change furniture in my bedroom without it not quite matching and throwing off the balance. But it's unrealistic to expect these things.
Put another way: just because you do want something, even if other people want it too, doesn't mean it makes sense in a given situation. It also doesn't mean that Apple should do it, just because they could make money doing so.
Very few people buy desktops today because they're modular. Most people don't even buy them because they're faster. They buy them because they're cheaper. DIY enthusiasts comprise a niche market themselves which is blown entirely out of proportion on forums like this. As computers get even cheaper and even more integrated, you'll see PCs continue that march toward zero expansion slots and ever-smaller cases. It's already almost impossible to find internal cards at retail electronics stores. 10 or 15 years ago, it was quite different. Even Fry's only has a fraction of what it once did.
Wow, why all the hostility?
Even if you don't, I don't understand why you think none of us should even bring it up.
Others offer mid-range desktops, but they don't have OS X. We would like both. No biggie for some of us if Apple doesn't provide it, but some people decide not to buy. Some decide to go with someone else because Apple doesn't provide what they want, and everyone else does. Lost sales for Apple.
I'm not saying Apple has to provide something for everyone, but this is the most requested thing and they don't seem to want to provide it. Our loss and theirs. What's so horrible about us even talking about wanting it?
If you don't like the subject, why did you bother clicking on the thread? Just to tell us all how wrong we are for wanting something others provide, but preferring OS X? Last I checked, that's what these types of forums are for.
None of us are telling you that you shouldn't want Apple to do a media center, I'm sure there are lots of people who would also like one. I wouldn't, but you obviously would, and you wouldn't be alone. You don't see us telling you that you shouldn't want one from Apple.
Yes, computers are commodities, but is it to much to ask that we can have a computer with full size (and full speed) drives (maybe even 2, what with Time Machine and all), a real video card, the ability to use your own monitor, and everything else everyone else offers, except they don't have OS X. If they do come out with one, you don't have to buy one. But we will. Lots of us will. Maybe not that many, but I'm sure enough to make it worth it for them. As long as they don't cripple it, like they did the Cube.
If they don't, people will continue to buy something else, we'll go back to complaining, and you can go back to criticizing us for even daring to bring it up.
We're talking about desktops.
The stuff in the Mac Pro is. The only expandable computer they sell. Just like I said.
Loosing Apple the sale.
I just want to run OS X, and I can't do that with any thing other than an Apple.
I don't see where you got that from my posts. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not trying to say any of that. I just thought it would be nice if they offered a mid range desktop, as do others.
Even if you don't, I don't understand why you think none of us should even bring it up.
That's my point.
Others offer mid-range desktops, but they don't have OS X. We would like both. No biggie for some of us if Apple doesn't provide it, but some people decide not to buy. Some decide to go with someone else because Apple doesn't provide what they want, and everyone else does. Lost sales for Apple. I'm not saying Apple has to provide something for everyone, but this is the most requested thing and they don't seem to want to provide it. Our loss and theirs. What's so horrible about us even talking about wanting it?
If you don't like the subject, why did you bother clicking on the thread? Just to tell us all how wrong we are for wanting something others provide, but preferring OS X? Last I checked, that's what these types of forums are for.
Why is it unrealistic? Others offer such a thing. As a matter of fact, it's pretty much the standard out there. Someone just asked a question, we agree. I still don't see why you're going postal just because we would like to see something.
None of us are telling you that you shouldn't want Apple to do a media center, I'm sure there are lots of people who would also like one. I wouldn't, but you obviously would, and you wouldn't be alone. You don't see us telling you that you shouldn't want one from Apple.
Actually it makes perfect sense, and that's exactly why we hope they would. So we could buy it. So they could sell it. Pretty much the way it works.
That's part of it. And would help towards the number one complain about Apple. Cost. The others are just pluses, but would also help.
This has nothing to do with DIY.
No internal cards?
Yes, computers are commodities, but is it to much to ask that we can have a computer with full size (and full speed) drives (maybe even 2, what with Time Machine and all), a real video card, the ability to use your own monitor, and everything else everyone else offers, except they don't have OS X. If they do come out with one, you don't have to buy one. But we will. Lots of us will. Maybe not that many, but I'm sure enough to make it worth it for them. As long as they don't cripple it, like they did the Cube.If they don't, people will continue to buy something else, we'll go back to complaining, and you can go back to criticizing us for even daring to bring it up.
Why are you comparing the proposed Apple mid-tower to an iMac?
Anyway, this machine is built mainly from retail parts, so the overhead you're talking about is there. Also, are you saying that Apple would have to pay more to buy stuff than any other online store selling components? It's probably the very opposite.
Say you add some 250 dollars for software and networking, you'd still be in the low 1400 range. Add some nice Apple taxes and this thing could still sell for 1500-1600 dollars. Apple would of course never do this, as they'd probably consider it to be a way too powerful machine for the money. That's one reason why I don't see myself switching to a Mac for my desktop any time soon.
Every Apple computer can have additional RAM installed, unless I've died and gone to some moronic land where suddenly Macs don't have RAM slots. The Mac Pro takes standard PC2 ECC DIMMs, just like thousands of other Xeon computers on the planet.
You can't lose what you never had to begin with.
Tautology.
That's not it at all. It's the whining and expectation and the "I'll never spend another dime on Apple until they do what I want" and the "iMacs r stoopid" histrionics. If Pane e Formaggio won't sell you a burger, go to Burgoo. If the former wants you back, they'll change. Apple obviously just isn't interested in another product which is redundant on two fronts: it's a second desktop system and it's a second midrange system. They've been trying to kill the beige tower for a decade, why would they bring it back in a pretty Apple case?
And my point is, "tough cookies." Sometimes you have to weigh options and make a choice. I like the way BMWs look, but I like the way Audis drive. I drive an Audi. I'm not pining over a perfect world where I could have a BMWAudi hybrid, because in the grand scheme of things, it's a fairly trivial thing.That's my point.
It's a poll. If you only want responses that agree with you, you'd get a pretty distorted sample. For the record, I voted on "I'd consider it if they offered one."
It's doubly redundant and it's antithetical to two of the primary aims of Apple. Just because it's common doesn't mean it was chosen. Windows is pretty much the standard out there. That doesn't mean it's good.
I don't see anyone going postal, and it's apparently only a push poll, since you're not actually interested in responses, it seems.
I have no problem with people wanting this system, so please don't put words in my mouth. I specifically stated it's the expectation that's unfounded.
It has everything to do with DIY. If you don't want to hand pick components for the damn thing, there's no reason for an expandable Mac to exist.
Because that's exactly what it is. It's a midrange PC; an iMac with no display. Anything more and it would be a Mac Pro and anything less and it would be a mini.
It's built from OEM parts. You may have purchased the retail packaged versions of the various components, but it's not a retail PC (an HP or a Dell, etc.). It's 100% white box, without the overhead for R&D, support, system warranty (independent and on top of component warranties), marketing, logistics, and all the other services you pay for indirectly. It's the same as buying filet mignon for $19/lb at the butcher and paying $30 for a single serving at a restaurant, only computer margins aren't so high.
The Mac Pro only takes FB-DIMMs does it not... I don't think you can just whack standard RAM in there. I probably wouldn't have paid so much for my FB-DIMMs if that were the case!
I know this has been replied to already, but I want to reply too, along similar lines.
This is ridiculous. Whilst you might not want a tower, they are far more useful for a lot of people. Some people don't want to throw away a screen every time they need a new computer, like you do with the iMac. Some people want to be able to add 4 internal hard drives, replace video cards, and upgrade many more internal components - even just being able to add a lot more RAM makes it worthwhile for some people.
What do you mean Macs weren't meant to be towers? They were meant to be personal computers, in whatever form that may be. Yes, the design of the Macs is nice, but a Mac Pro isn't exactly an ugly machine is it? And the OS is by far the main factor that makes me, and others, buy a Mac.
Really I can't stand your attitude of telling everyone definitively what is right and what is wrong. "This is what I think. This is right."
Oh - and I would buy a midrange tower, definitely.
Yeah i definitely would, i wish they bring the cube back, give it a 2.33 GHz C2D and a Nice graphics card (better than the imacs), with the same form factor as the cube, and i'd cue up outside an apple store to buy one, but the gap between the MacPro and the imac is quite big, bring the cube back and call it the MacPro mini
You're certainly correct--but FB-DIMMs are standard RAM. It's not priced to gouge you because it's for a Mac. Every chipset requiring it (be it for a blade Core Duo server, an Opteron board, or in this case, a Xeon system) uses that specification. Calling it overpriced is like calling the Xeon an overpriced Core 2 Duo or wishing that Macs took SDR SDRAM because it's cheaper, as I'm sure you know, having recently bought one!
This is far, far more likely from Apple's market perspective. A compact, competitive Mac without the built-in display and without gaping holes for hard drives and expansion cards.
That's not right... Mac mini's don't take FB-DIMMs, MacBook Pro's don't take FB-DIMMs... I'm pretty sure it's just Xeon class workstations like the Mac Pro and Dell Precision that require fully buffered RAM. You couldn't interchange the RAM from a Mac Pro with any other Mac... I'm confused.
(Edit: FWIW, I'd be 'interested' in a midrange Mac tower, but I'm certainly not going to bend Apple's ear over it. We can only buy the products that they produce - if we don't like them, we have to go elsewhere.)