Would you like native stylus support with pressure sensitivity?

[APlotdevice]

There is no reason to need a stylus on an iPad. You either use the touch keyboard to take notes, or a bluetooth keyboard. Either way its faster than handwriting. Handwriting is a dead tool. What are you gonna do with handwritten text? Scan it and convert to type text? How is handwritten text superior to typed text on notepad/word in any way? Can you handwrite at 100WPM? I can type a sentence with qwerty faster than I can write one handwritten word. The last thing I ever wrote in cursive was a love letter, --for novelty sake.

Notes are not always pure text. The keyboard isn't going to help much with inputting a graph or diagram. Besides that there is the artistic use. Currently trying to draw on an iPad is kinda like using fingerprints or, at best, a stick of chalk. A fine tip with pressure sensitivity would offer so much more control.

For those that need it for some special functions, like kdarling said, it is available to you via 3rd party.

Third parties can only do so much given the current limitations of the touchscreen itself.

It will never be native because it is incongruent with the iconic and elegant product design which is part of the consumer ownership experience.

Not if it was completely optional. We are not talking about replacing the existing interface. Merely augmenting it.

 

[Bobby Corwen]

Oh brother...

What? lol.. you know it won't happen for packaging sake.

Ok Im curious as to an example of where he changed his mind like your talking about. Example?

 

[Bobby Corwen]

Steve will never know!

It would be nice to take handwritten notes on the iPad. Would help me a LOT in the field.

He will never know, but what about honoring his legacy?

Hmm you sound like you work in a really unique specialty field...

Ok there are 3rd party options for you

Notes are not always pure text. The keyboard isn't going to help much with inputting a graph or diagram. Besides that there is the artistic use. Currently trying to draw on an iPad is kinda like using fingerprints or, at best, a stick of chalk. A fine tip with pressure sensitivity would offer so much more control.


Third parties can only do so much given the current limitations of the touchscreen itself.


Not if it was completely optional. We are not talking about replacing the existing interface. Merely augmenting it.

Honestly if I was drawing a dynamic on the spot graph, is a finger really that bad? Its kind of like how your finger is just controlling the center of the circular touch area and the area of effect is really the centered portion of your fingers' touch. Its not like what you draw has to be as thick as the tip of your finger.

I am trying to imagine a digital note-taking device that is so smooth that I don't mind using it instead of typing.

Can you point me to a Youtube demo of such a product that demonstrates this next level super stylus experience everyone is saying they want?

I could see pen precision being great for writing cursive letters. And also for art, but aren't these people using specialized tools at that level anyway? Is an iPad really meant for such things? Last time I checked it was a content consumption device.

How bad is this current third party option that tricks the iPad into thinking the stylus is your finger? Is it even usable?

 

[urkel]

Ok Im curious as to an example of where he changed his mind like your talking about. Example?

iPod Camera.

He will never know, but what about honoring his legacy?

His legacy?!?! The legacy of Steve Jobs isn't the iPad, it's Apple. Whatever products Apple sells today will look outdated and archaic a decade from now. So if "his legacy" is going to be relavent in the future then it will be because the team he assembled is going to continue to innovate and evolve with the times rather than sit around worrying about disrespecting Steve Jobs.

I could see pen precision being great for writing cursive letters. And also for art, but aren't these people using specialized tools at that level anyway? Is an iPad really meant for such things? Last time I checked it was a content consumption device.

Your view of the iPad (and computing in general) seems so narrow. We're still at the early stages of how computers will change our lives so why be so restrictive towards diversity and evolution?

 

[Bobby Corwen]

iPod Camera.


His legacy?!?! The legacy of Steve Jobs isn't the iPad, it's Apple. Whatever products Apple sells today will look outdated and archaic a decade from now. So if "his legacy" is going to be relavent in the future then it will be because the team he assembled is going to continue to innovate and evolve with the times rather than sit around worrying about disrespecting Steve Jobs.


Your view of the iPad (and computing in general) seems so narrow. We're still at the early stages of how computers will change our lives so why be so restrictive towards diversity and evolution?

Nah, they just weren't exactly sure how to market the touch at first and pushed it as primarily a gaming device with no cam. I would not come to conclusions about his character from such a thing. His vision was always clear. It was never BS. The attack on his character making him seem like he flip flopped on issues based on what he wanted to sell is unwarranted.

A lot of people before his passing predicted Apple would eventually fall from power and their supremely dominant status once Steve was gone.

You'd be surprised how uniquely irreplaceable and one of a kind he was. A true visionary in every sense of the word.

 

[spinedoc77]

What if the man who is trying to sell you something says something that is true?

Does it make it automatically inversely not true because the man who said it was a salesman?

A trackpad is essentially a glass screen. Why touch the screen when you can just touch the trackpad and even gain quicker leverage over a larger area from a smaller one. For example if you wanted to click the top left corner, on a trackpad you flick your finger and the mouse is there via mouse acceleration, as opposed to moving/hovering your whole hand/arm all the way to the top corner. Its less efficient and a hassle.

Voice commands are a lot less commonly used than you might think by the masses. People don't want to have someone else hear them give commands, its awkwardly intrusive to both parties and is rarely ever useful compared to doing the mouse control version of it. People don't want to disturb their privacy bubble by saying things out loud. Even when you are alone its just awkward.

Maybe I will set a voice timer once in a while, or maybe use Siri while driving. But its so rare.

There is no reason to need a stylus on an iPad. You either use the touch keyboard to take notes, or a bluetooth keyboard. Either way its faster than handwriting. Handwriting is a dead tool. What are you gonna do with handwritten text? Scan it and convert to type text? How is handwritten text superior to typed text on notepad/word in any way? Can you handwrite at 100WPM? I can type a sentence with qwerty faster than I can write one handwritten word. The last thing I ever wrote in cursive was a love letter, --for novelty sake.

For those that need it for some special functions, like kdarling said, it is available to you via 3rd party.

It will never be native because it is incongruent with the iconic and elegant product design which is part of the consumer ownership experience.

I agree with you on the voice commands, I don't think they will ever become mainstream. It's not even that Siri is a complete POS, which it is, but it's like you say, people are hesitant to scream out voice commands in public.

But on the stylus stuff I wholeheartedly disagree. I'm not saying the ipad "needs" a stylus, it doesn't "need" a camera for example, but Apple put one in. I just think a stylus would bring the ipad to the next level in achieving "everything" a consumer wants in a portable device. You're right that typing on a bluetooth keyboard is most probably faster than note taking, but the issue is carrying that bluetooth keyboard and setting it up. For people who want to jot notes in a meeting, or on the run, or on a bus/train, etc it's hugely more convenient to just write their notes out similar to how we've written notes on paper for the past 150+ years, I'll bet for the average user it's MUCH faster to write notes than use the onscreen keyboard as well. I think the bluetooth keyboard quickly becomes a moot point, it's a great tool to use when you want to write a long document AND you have the proper work space for it, but it's just not practical in the situations you use your ipad for. 99% of the time you would just use your laptop or desktop in that case.

Personally I think having a true high resolution touch sensor and a pressure sensitive capacitive pen would epitomize an "iconic and elegant" design standard that Apple is famous for. What does Apple value the most? Besides elegance in hardware design they value simplification of daily tasks, they value making their hardware invisible because you accept it as a daily part of your life instead of an intrusive piece of hardware you have to lug out, kind of like the feeling you get when you have to lug out your bluetooth keyboard on the train, that's far from elegance.

To add to all that, the drawing aspect I think is huge. For Apple to appeal to artists, both professional and amateur, is them capitalizing on their graphics heritage. Whether it's an artist creating a painting, or a game designer creating graphics, or an architect creating a structure, or an app designer creating a wireframe, etc etc I just think the graphical uses of a true drawing tablet without dragging a PC around would be awesome for a lot of consumers.

 

[Phil A.]

but what about what Steve said?

Did Steve Jobs ever actually make any statement about not using a stylus on a Tablet? All I remember is the comment when the iPhone was announced and I completely agree that a stylus on a phone is a pain.
However, it's a whole different thing on a tablet and IMO the iPad should support hi resolution stylus input for notes, drawing, etc

 

[Night Spring]

Personally I think having a true high resolution touch sensor and a pressure sensitive capacitive pen would epitomize an "iconic and elegant" design standard that Apple is famous for.

I agree. However, from what I understand, the technology isn't there yet to build such a screen / pen for the iPad and keep the price at $500 for the entry level model. I'm sure Apple will eventually incorporate such a screen for the iPad. But not for the iPad 3, and probably not even for the 4. The earliest I expect it is for the 5 or later. Also, I expect Apple to sell a stylus as an optional add-on, even though the pressure sensitive technology would be built in. Just like Bluetooth is built in, but Bluetooth accessories are add-ons.

 

[snow blind]

Why the hell would anyone vote no

 

[urkel]

Nah, they just weren't exactly sure how to market the touch at first and pushed it as primarily a gaming device with no cam. I would not come to conclusions about his character from such a thing. His vision was always clear. It was never BS. The attack on his character making him seem like he flip flopped on issues based on what he wanted to sell is unwarranted.

You seem to write Apple history in reverse which is odd for someone who seems to be such a big fan of Jobs.

- Touch gaming wasn't initially the primary purpose of the Touch. That was a selling point that emerged AFTER 3rd party app developers found a home for casual, fast paced games on the iPhone. Apple saw what the end users wanted and embraced it AFTER they saw where the iPhone was carving out its niche.

iPod Touch camera. People could accept that the Touch was an iPhone without a phone, but it was difficult to accept that it was an iPhone without a camera. Whether or not this was actually planned or if it was a response to public outcry, Jobs said what he said and then retracted. That doesn't mean he is flawed, it means he knows how to evolve.

Successful businessmen are open to change. It's sadly humorous the way you put Jobs on a pedestal without even understanding who he is and what he stood for. His ability to change (or "flip-flop") is exactly what makes Apple such an innovative company. Switching to Intel, Dumping OS9 for OSX, creating their own in-house touch pads, dumping CD drives, moving to SSD, and currently with OS X, evolving their Desktop OS to be more unified with their TOUCH CONTROLLED mobile OS.

So for you to take such an adamant stance against "No Stylus on the iPad" or "No Touch Screen on the computer" only displays how little you understand about Apple's ability to take an existing product and make it better.

You'd be surprised how uniquely irreplaceable and one of a kind he was. A true visionary in every sense of the word.

Either you haven't read the book or you didn't understand it. Jobs was unique, but to claim he was irreplaceable is to say that this company can't move beyond where they are today. And in the short time since Jobs passed, the company has already moved forward and proven it can succeed without him.

 

[Night Spring]

Why the hell would anyone vote no

I voted no because *I* don't need a stylus, so I'm fine with the way it is. Doesn't mean I don't understand that other people want/need a stylus.

 

[urkel]

Why the hell would anyone vote no

Isn't it odd that cavemen believed in mixed mediums yet the modern iPad user does not?

 

[spinedoc77]

I agree. However, from what I understand, the technology isn't there yet to build such a screen / pen for the iPad and keep the price at $500 for the entry level model. I'm sure Apple will eventually incorporate such a screen for the iPad. But not for the iPad 3, and probably not even for the 4. The earliest I expect it is for the 5 or later. Also, I expect Apple to sell a stylus as an optional add-on, even though the pressure sensitive technology would be built in. Just like Bluetooth is built in, but Bluetooth accessories are add-ons.

Yes I agree on all counts. Having a touch sensor that competes with a cintiq for example would probably be very cost prohibitive, but I think there is a LOT of room for improvement that they can achieve within their profit margin. Currently all the drawing apps max out at 72dpi, which I am assuming is what the touch sensor capabilities are. I've searched and couldn't find any specific reference to what the touch sensor hardware capabilities are, but am simply assuming that if no drawing app vendor has made anything over 72dpi then it's not technically possible. Cintiq makes a 12" pen display with a resolution of 1280x800 with 5080dpi (or I've seen it as lines per inch) and 1024 levels of pressure for $999. I think artists would be pretty ecstatic with a print quality level of 300dpi.

I think that $999 price is pretty heftily inflated though. There are guys out there making their own cintiq type tablets for less than 1/4 that price, basically they are taking the pen input touch sensors like the ones on the wacom pen input tablets and overlaying them on top of a regular monitor. You can get a 10x6" drawing tablet from monoprice for $48 (I have it and it's awesome), capacitive with 4000 LPI (I believe dpi is 1/2 of LPI?), and 1024 pressure levels.

You also have the Modbook which is a fascinating design, a company takes your macbook and puts a touch sensor overlay on it, removes the keyboard and makes it a full tablet form factor. Of course they charge $899 for this service, but now you are talking about converting a full macbook laptop, although this kind of veers off topic a bit it is still pretty cool to note. I'm not sure what the specs are on touch input, they say 512 levels of pressure sensitivity and "Recognition resolution: 20x display resolution".

I don't know, but I'd be willing to venture a guess that for Apple to get a measly 300dpi touch sensor probably wouldn't cost them that much.

 

[kdarling]

The reason why the iPad (or any capacitive screen) does not do better touch resolution is because it purposely rejects small points on purpose in order to avoid false touches.

That need is why device designers are adding a separate pen system with higher resolution.

--

I'm not sure why some people think pens are only for handwriting. Most people use pens and pencils for all sorts of things:

Prototyping schematics. Jotting down math equations in class. Making a Venn diagram. Heck, even just drawing a room or bookcase diagram with measurements before going to Home Depot.

Anything you usually grab pen and paper for.

 

[Bobby Corwen]

I agree with you on the voice commands, I don't think they will ever become mainstream. It's not even that Siri is a complete POS, which it is, but it's like you say, people are hesitant to scream out voice commands in public.

But on the stylus stuff I wholeheartedly disagree. I'm not saying the ipad "needs" a stylus, it doesn't "need" a camera for example, but Apple put one in. I just think a stylus would bring the ipad to the next level in achieving "everything" a consumer wants in a portable device. You're right that typing on a bluetooth keyboard is most probably faster than note taking, but the issue is carrying that bluetooth keyboard and setting it up. For people who want to jot notes in a meeting, or on the run, or on a bus/train, etc it's hugely more convenient to just write their notes out similar to how we've written notes on paper for the past 150+ years, I'll bet for the average user it's MUCH faster to write notes than use the onscreen keyboard as well. I think the bluetooth keyboard quickly becomes a moot point, it's a great tool to use when you want to write a long document AND you have the proper work space for it, but it's just not practical in the situations you use your ipad for. 99% of the time you would just use your laptop or desktop in that case.

Taken from the other thread. Speed of typing on on screen keyboard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVHjKuUm43A

I still don't agree like I previously stated that handwriting wether by hand or stylus can ever be as fast as on screen keyboard. Nevermind the Bluetooth keyboard.

Personally I think having a true high resolution touch sensor and a pressure sensitive capacitive pen would epitomize an "iconic and elegant" design standard that Apple is famous for. What does Apple value the most? Besides elegance in hardware design they value simplification of daily tasks, they value making their hardware invisible because you accept it as a daily part of your life instead of an intrusive piece of hardware you have to lug out, kind of like the feeling you get when you have to lug out your bluetooth keyboard on the train, that's far from elegance.

Well when you say elegance, I think about the excess tool you have latched on to your slate that you don't need. It takes away from the simplicity because now it means you have something latched on there that you don't really need in most situations and it kind of is a niche tool for certain people. It just goes against the spirit of simplicity because you can already just use your finger. A pen is a backwards step and an option that is unnecessary all things considered.

To add to all that, the drawing aspect I think is huge. For Apple to appeal to artists, both professional and amateur, is them capitalizing on their graphics heritage. Whether it's an artist creating a painting, or a game designer creating graphics, or an architect creating a structure, or an app designer creating a wireframe, etc etc I just think the graphical uses of a true drawing tablet without dragging a PC around would be awesome for a lot of consumers.

I think most of those people would use their computer for that or specialized high rez digital drawing tools. I doubt whatever the iPad could do wouldn't be redundant compared to those serious tools with proper working setups.

The iPad is a consumer product first, with pro-sumer bonuses. But its doesnt get that professional in scope.

Did Steve Jobs ever actually make any statement about not using a stylus on a Tablet? All I remember is the comment when the iPhone was announced and I completely agree that a stylus on a phone is a pain.
However, it's a whole different thing on a tablet and IMO the iPad should support hi resolution stylus input for notes, drawing, etc

Not sure but I can't see a big difference. The iPad screen is relatively a small space.

You seem to write Apple history in reverse which is odd for someone who seems to be such a big fan of Jobs.

- Touch gaming wasn't initially the primary purpose of the Touch. That was a selling point that emerged AFTER 3rd party app developers found a home for casual, fast paced games on the iPhone. Apple saw what the end users wanted and embraced it AFTER they saw where the iPhone was carving out its niche.

iPod Touch camera. People could accept that the Touch was an iPhone without a phone, but it was difficult to accept that it was an iPhone without a camera. Whether or not this was actually planned or if it was a response to public outcry, Jobs said what he said and then retracted. That doesn't mean he is flawed, it means he knows how to evolve.

Successful businessmen are open to change. It's sadly humorous the way you put Jobs on a pedestal without even understanding who he is and what he stood for. His ability to change (or "flip-flop") is exactly what makes Apple such an innovative company. Switching to Intel, Dumping OS9 for OSX, creating their own in-house touch pads, dumping CD drives, moving to SSD, and currently with OS X, evolving their Desktop OS to be more unified with their TOUCH CONTROLLED mobile OS.

So for you to take such an adamant stance against "No Stylus on the iPad" or "No Touch Screen on the computer" only displays how little you understand about Apple's ability to take an existing product and make it better.


Either you haven't read the book or you didn't understand it. Jobs was unique, but to claim he was irreplaceable is to say that this company can't move beyond where they are today. And in the short time since Jobs passed, the company has already moved forward and proven it can succeed without him.

Here is a direct quote from his words.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/09/steve-jobs-says-ipod-touch-didnt-get-a-camera-because-its-a-g/

Apple wasn't "exactly sure how to market the touch" at first, but once they listened to their customers and started to focus on gaming, "it just took off." That certainly explains the "funnest iPod ever" tagline, but still, why no cam? "We don't need to add new stuff -- we need to get the price down to where everyone can afford it."

Take that and add to the fact that you yourself (highlighted in red) recognize his business acumen and it already creates a much clearer picture of his character which is a far cry from what you were saying earlier, making it seem like the things he says don't mean anything.

Lets be real here, all this stems from the fact that he was very famously stern on the topic of never having a stylus, and then everyone saw the commercial for Android at the super bowl which attempts to be a bold slap in the face for his decision making and his legacy and all the Fandroids and the people who hate "Apples' cult-like behavior" chose to jump on board just for the sake of expressing their contempt with Apples dominance. They choose to express themselves by being down with a stylus even though Jobs was against it just to express that they don't give a damn what he says.

And thats what the reactions in this thread are fueled by.

You don't REALLY need a stylus. You just want to be a rebel.

 

[Emoo]

He will never know, but what about honoring his legacy?

Hmm you sound like you work in a really unique specialty field...

Ok there are 3rd party options for you

/cut/

There are plenty of fields that would benefit from styli, and they aren't "really unique specialty" areas. Engineering, architecture, web design, biology, animation, etc. Diagrams and sketches are a multi-field tool, and not one that immediately lends itself to text or simply using your finger.

 

[Bobby Corwen]

There are plenty of fields that would benefit from styli, and they aren't "really unique specialty" areas. Engineering, architecture, web design, biology, animation, etc. Diagrams and sketches are a multi-field tool, and not one that immediately lends itself to text or simply using your finger.

You're forgetting you can still use your finger. Don't forget you still have a finger.

There is still a fine line between what you can't do with a finger and can with a pen.

Most things people are interested in "hypothetically doing" can still be done almost as well with your finger.

Everything else is usually out of the realm of the iPad and goes into pro territory.

Also the 3rd party pens work pretty darn good so I doubt they need to be included in official support.

 

[Night Spring]

Here is a direct quote from his words.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/09/steve-jobs-says-ipod-touch-didnt-get-a-camera-because-its-a-g/

Wait, that quote is Jobs explaining why iPod touch doesn't need a camera, right? Well, I don't think that helps your argument, seeing how later on, iPod touch did get a camera (2 in fact), and it happened while Jobs was still alive.

 

[M87]

Anything that advances its capabilities is something I would appreciate.

 

[Bobby Corwen]

Wait, that quote is Jobs explaining why iPod touch doesn't need a camera, right? Well, I don't think that helps your argument, seeing how later on, iPod touch did get a camera (2 in fact), and it happened while Jobs was still alive.

Wrong.

It shows the reasoning behind his choices.

 

[Night Spring]

It shows the reasoning behind his choices.

Well, whatever his reasoning, he obviously changed his mind about cameras on the iPod touch. So if he had lived a few more years, then who's to say he wouldn't have changed his mind about stylus for the iPad?

 

[spinedoc77]

Taken from the other thread. Speed of typing on on screen keyboard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVHjKuUm43A

I still don't agree like I previously stated that handwriting wether by hand or stylus can ever be as fast as on screen keyboard. Nevermind the Bluetooth keyboard.


Doesnt mean much, years of using winmobile and I can stylus write faster than most can type with a standalone keyboard. I would routinely write 30-40 patient notes and several reports per day on my ipaq. For the average first time user the iPads keyboard input is going to be much slower than handwriting.

Well when you say elegance, I think about the excess tool you have latched on to your slate that you don't need. It takes away from the simplicity because now it means you have something latched on there that you don't really need in most situations and it kind of is a niche tool for certain people. It just goes against the spirit of simplicity because you can already just use your finger. A pen is a backwards step and an option that is unnecessary all things considered.

Exactly my point about the bluetooth keyboard. At least a stylus can be made to slip inside the iPad like the galaxy note. True note taking and drawing are more than niche functions for many users, its just another market for apple to capitalize on. Thousands of years to advance from finger painting on cave walls to writing with a utensil, shame we have to go back to caveman painting.

I think most of those people would use their computer for that or specialized high rez digital drawing tools. I doubt whatever the iPad could do wouldn't be redundant compared to those serious tools with proper working setups.

Maybe, maybe not. You can look at my post where I make an educated guess that a 300 dpi touch sensor wouldn't be much expense to get on there. Tha iPad can be considered redundant in MANY functions depending how you look at it, but that's overlooking the fact that it can do many of these functions plus add portability. This is especially obvious in comparing it to a cintiq which requires you to lug around a PC. The iPad can be a standalone tool, or it can be a field tool then when you get home you can get more detail with the home tools. It's already used this way today.

The iPad is a consumer product first, with pro-sumer bonuses. But its doesnt get that professional in scope.



Not sure but I can't see a big difference. The iPad screen is relatively a small space.



Here is a direct quote from his words.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/09/steve-jobs-says-ipod-touch-didnt-get-a-camera-because-its-a-g/



Take that and add to the fact that you yourself (highlighted in red) recognize his business acumen and it already creates a much clearer picture of his character which is a far cry from what you were saying earlier, making it seem like the things he says don't mean anything.

Lets be real here, all this stems from the fact that he was very famously stern on the topic of never having a stylus, and then everyone saw the commercial for Android at the super bowl which attempts to be a bold slap in the face for his decision making and his legacy and all the Fandroids and the people who hate "Apples' cult-like behavior" chose to jump on board just for the sake of expressing their contempt with Apples dominance. They choose to express themselves by being down with a stylus even though Jobs was against it just to express that they don't give a damn what he says.

And thats what the reactions in this thread are fueled by.

You don't REALLY need a stylus. You just want to be a rebel.

Bbb

 

[spinedoc77]

Wait, that quote is Jobs explaining why iPod touch doesn't need a camera, right? Well, I don't think that helps your argument, seeing how later on, iPod touch did get a camera (2 in fact), and it happened while Jobs was still alive.

That's exactly what I got out of that as well. I think one of jobs strengths was being able to incorporate something which would become desirable to consumers that the consumer didn't realize they would want. He may have used marketing speak to downplay an iPod camera, similar to his marketing speak on the stylus, but he was smart enough to eventually add the camera.

 

[urkel]

You don't REALLY need a stylus. You just want to be a rebel.

Easily one of the most illogical things ever said on these forums. Congratulations on displaying your inability to understand anything and everything.

 

[urkel]

Well, whatever his reasoning, he obviously changed his mind about cameras on the iPod touch. So if he had lived a few more years, then who's to say he wouldn't have changed his mind about stylus for the iPad?

Exactly. It is so absurd when people act as if the iPad available when Jobs passed is anything close to the final design. Just because Jobs didn't want a stylus 2 years ago doesn't mean he would never change his perspective on it so arguing to "protect his legacy" or trying to pretend he was incapable of change is ridiculous.