Wow disappointing!

[hans1972]

1. 30 days recovery is not the same as having a true duplicated backup system.
2. Substituting a $10/month 2tb plan (since the next step down is 200gb) for cheap local storage is WAY more expensive. We're talking $120 a year, over say a 5 year device life = $600 of storage. A terabyte SSD is like $100 now in non-Apple machines which is 6x cheaper and enough for most. Apples to apples would be a 2tb SSD at $200ish. (3x cheaper)
3. Say I want to stop using iCloud. Where do I pull all of those files off to? I wouldn't have enough local storage to do so.

I'd be a lot happier if iCloud pricing went down or if they offered a better mid-sized 1tb tier, and they offered recovery for 3-6 months.

1. It isn't, but for tens of millions of regulars users it is the best system they will get. They will not go for a Time Machine solution or configure and subscribe to a cloud backup service.

2. A lot of regular users will get by with the 200Gb plan or they'll do family sharing.
They aren't choosing cloud services because they can't store stuff locally. They use cloud services for other reasons which affects their need for local storage.

3. Regulars user will not stop using cloud services since it is inconvenient, cumbersome and usually also difficult to so. They might shift to another cloud service, if it is technical feasible, in which they just copy the data from their old cloud service.

If you want to stop using a cloud service which stores data and you don't have enough local storage, you have to attach external storage to it. This raises the bar high enough to make regular users abandon such an idea.

 

[KeithJenner]

A large proportion of the target market for the entry level iMac do not have loads of documents, and 256gb is plenty of storage for them. I personally think there is a good case for offering that as the lowest configuration, rather than making them pay for 512gb which is going to be largely empty.

However, I think that there is a real problem with iCloud and backups. I know many people who are using iCloud to store their photos, documents and music with optimisation turned on and then using time machine. They are usually totally unaware that the files which aren't stored locally, including photos and matched songs in their music library are not being backed up to time machine. An accidental delete which isn't spotted for a while means they are potentially lost forever.

That is one of the main reasons that I make sure that my desktop has a complete copy of everything downloaded. My laptop doesn't need a load of local storage.

I don't have a problem with 256gb being the starting level of storage, but I do think that Apple need to be clearer about the issues with relying too much on iCloud.

 

[MrTSolar]

It's causing a problem for you because you haven't changed the way you are using a desktop computer and you aren't willing to solve the problem by spending more money.

The main reason why Apple isn't providing a 1TB SSD as default, is because it is much more expensive than a 1Tb HDD.

Storage continually gets cheaper. We shouldn’t have to spend more money to get what we had before.

SSDs are hardly more expensive than disk now. Actually, on Newegg at the moment, an SSD is cheaper than an HDD. If you can buy a 1 TB SSD for $124, why does it cost $400 to go from 256 GB to 1 TB in the iMac?

 

[Fishrrman]

Hans wrote:
"* No storage of movies or TV-series (replaced by streaming services)"

I've never used a streaming service, and I don't watch television.

"* No storage of local music library (replaced by streaming services)"

I don't stream music by subscription -- not going to pay for it. I -do- continue to use the iTunes free internet radio.

"* No backup of iOS devices (they never did it or replaced by iCloud backup)"

I don't own any iOS devices, and I don't use iCloud.

"* They don't do Mac backups by themselves so they don't have a need to have everything local to make a Time Machine backup"

All my backups are to physical drives and I've NEVER used time machine, ever.

"* They don't care if data is stored locally or on in the cloud, mostly convenience and price determines what they prefer"

I don't use the "the Cloud", and will never pay for cloud storage.

...But then again, I guess "it's just me..."

 

[hans1972]

Hans wrote:
"* No storage of movies or TV-series (replaced by streaming services)"

I've never used a streaming service, and I don't watch television.

"* No storage of local music library (replaced by streaming services)"

I don't stream music by subscription -- not going to pay for it. I -do- continue to use the iTunes free internet radio.

"* No backup of iOS devices (they never did it or replaced by iCloud backup)"

I don't own any iOS devices, and I don't use iCloud.

"* They don't do Mac backups by themselves so they don't have a need to have everything local to make a Time Machine backup"

All my backups are to physical drives and I've NEVER used time machine, ever.

"* They don't care if data is stored locally or on in the cloud, mostly convenience and price determines what they prefer"

I don't use the "the Cloud", and will never pay for cloud storage.

...But then again, I guess "it's just me..."

You are unusual if you aren't using any streaming services. iCloud has over 1 billion users.

The way you do computing is something Apple abandoned at least 5-6 years ago.

If you are storing everything on your local computer and connecting drives with cables, you will find yourself extremely happy with everything Apple does with the Mac in the future.

 

[hans1972]

Storage continually gets cheaper. We shouldn’t have to spend more money to get what we had before.

SSDs are hardly more expensive than disk now. Actually, on Newegg at the moment, an SSD is cheaper than an HDD. If you can buy a 1 TB SSD for $124, why does it cost $400 to go from 256 GB to 1 TB in the iMac?

You post an example of SSD being 5 times more expense than a HDD.

Apple will charge for value and cost. A 1Tb SSD is both much more expensive and much more valuable to the customer.

If you need large amount of local storage, Apple will charge you a lot and you can't win this.

 

[JazzyGB1]

This whole discussion started with this statement from me: "For regular users the need for storage has in fact gone down the last decade".

You seem to point to examples of use which isn't very common for what I would call 'regular users' any more.


I don't subscribe to the idea that a main household computer (or any desktop computer) should "contain all the data of a household". I grew up with PCs when they had no local storage at all.

Also you seem to do a form of computing which isn't very common for regular users anymore and which Apple has abandoned: A (desktop) Mac is a mothership which contains all data. Other devices (iPhones, iPad) connects to the mothership for backup and synchronization of data.



My argument is that most regular users wouldn't have needed 1Tb of storage in 2019 either.

Most regular users don't connect their iPhone to their Mac to create an backup. They either use iCloud or don't backup at all.

Here's why so many regular user's have less need for local storage than before:

* No storage of movies or TV-series (replaced by streaming services)
* No storage of local music library (replaced by streaming services)
* No backup of iOS devices (they never did it or replaced by iCloud backup)
* They don't do Mac backups by themselves so they don't have a need to have everything local to make a Time Machine backup
* They don't care if data is stored locally or on in the cloud, mostly convenience and price determines what they prefer

It's causing a problem for you because you haven't changed the way you are using a desktop computer and you aren't willing to solve the problem by spending more money.

The main reason why Apple isn't providing a 1TB SSD as default, is because it is much more expensive than a 1Tb HDD.

The only reason the new iMac now ships with 256GB storage as standard is because when Apple changed from spinning drives to SSD, they initially went 256GB as (at that time) a 1TB SSD was prohibitively more expensive but that's not the case now.

It's got nothing to do with 'regular users' (whatever they are) suddenly changing or any other of the excuses you gave.

The latest Tomb Raider trilogy is an 80GB install alone...that is typical use.

Editing some footage in iMovie...that is typical use.

Having multiple user accounts on one iMac...that is typical use and for all those things 256GB is simply not enough.

Apple have perniciously been increasing the price of their products and 'hiding' the increase by lowering the spec.

No RAM increase on an iMac in 9 years and storage a quarter of its 2019 model.

In 2019 a 4k 21" iMac cost $1299 and came with SD port, Thunderbolt ports, ethernet port, 4 x USB 3 ports, 8GB Ram and 1TB storage.

In 2021 the corresponding model features no USB A ports, no ethernet port, no SD port and a quarter of the storage.

If you spec it up correspondingly the 'entry level' iMac is now $1729 - that's a $430 increase.

it's not okay and they should be taken to task about it - especially by the media who's silence on the matter is deafening.

Apple have done this with most of product range too. Mac Pro being the most obvious example, but also with iPhones.

In 2016 a flagship iPhone 6s Plus cost $649 an iPhone 12 Pro Max is $1099 - another $450 increase that no one mentions.

I'm aware that products cost a more to make over time, but an increase of 70% in 5 years is (again) taking the piss.

Being silent on it because 'it doesn't affect you' isn't an answer and it's shameful that you should use that as an excuse.

 

[nigel415674]

The tiny hard drives being stuffed into these computers is less about fleecing you for the cost of the device, but more about getting you to pay for iCloud, Apple Music and and Apple TV. If they can get all these Mac users to sign up for this junk, they make more in a couple of months than on a bigger SSD.
Apple is the greediest PC maker out there bar none. Compare the cost of their machines to a PC and you get way more with a PC. I bought my first ever PC last year, an HP Envy 360 laptop for $750, and the performance is up there with my high-end 2020 iMac desktop. I love it. I paid $40 to upgrade from 8MB memory to 16MB memory. $40 DOLLARS. That is a fair price.
Apple charges $200! SERIOUSLY?
Apple used to give you something “different” and unique for a high price. Now, you get the same old stuff, or less in this case, for more money.

 

[Loyola]

Apple have perniciously been increasing the price of their products and 'hiding' the increase by lowering the spec.

No RAM increase on an iMac in 9 years and storage a quarter of its 2019 model.

In 2019 a 4k 21" iMac cost $1299 and came with SD port, Thunderbolt ports, ethernet port, 4 x USB 3 ports, 8GB Ram and 1TB storage.

In 2021 the corresponding model features no USB A ports, no ethernet port, no SD port and a quarter of the storage.

If you spec it up correspondingly the 'entry level' iMac is now $1729 - that's a $430 increase.

it's not okay and they should be taken to task about it - especially by the media who's silence on the matter is deafening.

This is adds context to what I was thinking and why I have hesitated to get the order the new iMac. I am starting to think Apple is going to price me out and I will end up with an HP or Dell.

I am not a pro user but I want something mid level because I keep my computers for along time. Since my Strawberry iMac in 1999, I have had 2 other iMacs.

The new iMac just don't scream mid level to me.

 

[NT1440]

The tiny hard drives being stuffed into these computers is less about fleecing you for the cost of the device, but more about getting you to pay for iCloud, Apple Music and and Apple TV. If they can get all these Mac users to sign up for this junk, they make more in a couple of months than on a bigger SSD.
Apple is the greediest PC maker out there bar none. Compare the cost of their machines to a PC and you get way more with a PC. I bought my first ever PC last year, an HP Envy 360 laptop for $750, and the performance is up there with my high-end 2020 iMac desktop. I love it.

I posted earlier in this thread that a Lenovo T15 comes standard in the BTO category with 128GB of storage. They want $750 for a 1TB hard drive upgrade. This is standard across the PC industry.

 

[nigel415674]

I posted earlier in this thread that a Lenovo T15 comes standard in the BTO category with 128GB of storage. They want $750 for a 1TB hard drive upgrade. This is standard across the PC industry.

At least on a lot of PCs are upgradable. I could easily upgrade my HP. Several videos online how to do it.

 

[nigel415674]

You are unusual if you aren't using any streaming services. iCloud has over 1 billion users.

The way you do computing is something Apple abandoned at least 5-6 years ago.

If you are storing everything on your local computer and connecting drives with cables, you will find yourself extremely happy with everything Apple does with the Mac in the future.

A lot of people have Plex or their own music libraries. Not everyone loves to hand over all their money to Apple for simply enjoying music. I have iCloud because it came with my iMac, but I don’t use it. I have to use a Mac to work with designers at work.

 

[KeithJenner]

It is seemingly very hard for many people on here to understand, but these things really do vary from person to person.

Personally, I use cloud services and Apple Music, but also own an extensive music and video library (about 12tb in total). The main benefit to iCloud and Apple Music (I used to just use iTunes Match) is to keep my computers in sync and easily allow my music to be available wherever I am. I still want a desktop to hold and backup everything.

That may well be a fairly unusual setup these days, but it still works fairly well for me using apple devices. I am spending quite a bit this time in getting 2TB mainly so my music library is on the iMacs internal SSD (I sometimes find the delay for an external HDD to fire up is annoying) but have proved over the past decade or so that it does work well.

I have to say that I am quite amused by the posts on here that state that 256gb is not enough as a starting point. My wife has an iMac with 256gb and I just checked and it is less than half used. None of our laptops get anywhere near filling up the same size storage. The majority of Mac users I know use barely any local storage. Of the people I know who are gamers, none use Macs for it, so I would suggest that large files for these are not particularly common use.

Of course, individual uses vary.

 

[blairh]

Perhaps I'm an outlier, but I don't keep a damn thing on my iMac. My music is in the iCloud Music Library and backed up on my external HD. I watch my movie/tv collection via the Infuse app on my Apple TV and the media itself is stored in a Dropbox folder and my external HD. Google Docs are in the cloud. All other important documents, photos, and videos are both neatly organized in Dropbox (manually upload) and my external HD. I keep nothing on my Mac. 256 GB SSD would be plenty for me.

 

[NT1440]

At least on a lot of PCs are upgradable. I could easily upgrade my HP. Several videos online how to do it.

That’s a totally different argument, one that acknowledges that Apple is by no means “greedy” in this regard.

Personally, I upgrade my work machines before deployment to save on costs, but because I recognize that ALL OEMs use upgrade costs to juice profits, not just Apple.

 

[KeithJenner]

Perhaps I'm an outlier, but I don't keep a damn thing on my iMac. My music is in the iCloud Music Library and backed up on my external HD. I watch my movie/tv collection via the Infuse app on my Apple TV and the media itself is stored in a Dropbox folder and my external HD. Google Docs are in the cloud. All other important documents, photos, and videos are both neatly organized in Dropbox (manually upload) and my external HD. I keep nothing on my Mac. 256 GB SSD would be plenty for me.

I don't think you are an outlier at all. I think that is an extremely common usage (obviously not necessarily using those particular services).

 

[nigel415674]

Perhaps I'm an outlier, but I don't keep a damn thing on my iMac. My music is in the iCloud Music Library and backed up on my external HD. I watch my movie/tv collection via the Infuse app on my Apple TV and the media itself is stored in a Dropbox folder and my external HD. Google Docs are in the cloud. All other important documents, photos, and videos are both neatly organized in Dropbox (manually upload) and my external HD. I keep nothing on my Mac. 256 GB SSD would be plenty for me.

I keep a lot of my stuff backed up in the cloud too, but I definitely keep local copies as it took me forever to rip all my stuff.
These Apple users frame it as if its an expensive problem to get a decent sized SSD. It's not. It's ONLY when you are speccing an APPLE device when it becomes a very bad problem that ties people up in big knots. I've got plenty of money but I still paused when speccing my iMac with a large SSD. It was just SO ridiculously expensive.

 

[NT1440]

I keep a lot of my stuff backed up in the cloud too, but I definitely keep local copies as it took me forever to rip all my stuff.
These Apple users frame it as if its an expensive problem to get a decent sized SSD. It's not. It's ONLY when you are speccing an APPLE device when it becomes a very bad problem that ties people up in big knots. I've got plenty of money but I still paused when speccing my iMac with a large SSD. It was just SO ridiculously expensive.

Personally, I keep my Macs for a very long time. I bought my 2015 13” MBP with 512GB and only upgraded it to 1TB because it was a fun way to tinker with it. When I eventually go with an Apple Silicon MBP I will spec it accordingly with the understanding that I’m going to use it for 6-8 years. Yes it’s expensive, but over the lifetime of the machine I don’t worry about it, it serves its purposes beautifully.

 

[JazzyGB1]

It is seemingly very hard for many people on here to understand, but these things really do vary from person to person.

Personally, I use cloud services and Apple Music, but also own an extensive music and video library (about 12tb in total). The main benefit to iCloud and Apple Music (I used to just use iTunes Match) is to keep my computers in sync and easily allow my music to be available wherever I am. I still want a desktop to hold and backup everything.

That may well be a fairly unusual setup these days, but it still works fairly well for me using apple devices. I am spending quite a bit this time in getting 2TB mainly so my music library is on the iMacs internal SSD (I sometimes find the delay for an external HDD to fire up is annoying) but have proved over the past decade or so that it does work well.

I have to say that I am quite amused by the posts on here that state that 256gb is not enough as a starting point. My wife has an iMac with 256gb and I just checked and it is less than half used. None of our laptops get anywhere near filling up the same size storage. The majority of Mac users I know use barely any local storage. Of the people I know who are gamers, none use Macs for it, so I would suggest that large files for these are not particularly common use.

Of course, individual uses vary.

Let me simplify...If you are migrating data from a 2019 entry level iMac to a new entry level 2021 iMac, you should be able to do so without having to pay hundreds more dollars for the luxury.

It's Apple who have moved the goal posts here, not the user.

For those who use the cloud for storage and are not impacted - whoop de whoop for you, but I'd point out you wouldn't be impacted if it had shipped with the 1TB either, so if the iMac started with 1TB as base (like every iMac up until last year did) everyone would could easily transition from their previous iMac, so it'd be a win win.

Instead they chose to take that option away, along with your USB ports, ethernet and SD card slot.

Remember there's no way of adding internal storage (or RAM) at a later date, so it's poor practice by Apple at best - that it doesn't impact on you doesn't change that.

 

[hans1972]

The only reason the new iMac now ships with 256GB storage as standard is because when Apple changed from spinning drives to SSD, they initially went 256GB as (at that time) a 1TB SSD was prohibitively more expensive but that's not the case now.

It's got nothing to do with 'regular users' (whatever they are) suddenly changing or any other of the excuses you gave.

I agree completely that the main and most important reason why Macs usually get 128Gb or 256Gb SSDs as standard is because of price.

This is the first low-end iMac which comes standard with SSD.
What the different Macs got as a default when they went SSD only varied by year and model.

MacBook Air (2010) got 64 Gb of SSD as a default after moving off of HDD.
MacBook Pro Retina (2012) got 256 Gb SSD as a default.
MacPro (2013) got 256 Gb SSD as default.
MacBook (2015) got 256 Gb SSD as default.
iMac Pro (2017) got 1Tb SSD as default.
Mac mini (2018) got 128 Gb SSD as default.
iMac 27" Retina 5K (2020) got 256 Gb SSD as default.

My argument for regular users was to argue why so many of them need less storage space than before. If you don't need more than 256 Gb of storage, it doesn't matter why Apple came to the same number.

 

[KeithJenner]

Let me simplify...If you are migrating data from a 2019 entry level iMac to a new entry level 2021 iMac, you should be able to do so without having to pay hundreds more dollars for the luxury.

It's Apple who have moved the goal posts here, not the user.

For those who use the cloud for storage and are not impacted - whoop de whoop for you, but I'd point out you wouldn't be impacted if it had shipped with the 1TB either, so if the iMac started with 1TB as base (like every iMac up until last year did) everyone would could easily transition from their previous iMac, so it'd be a win win.

Instead they chose to take that option away, along with your USB ports, ethernet and SD card slot.

Remember there's no way of adding internal storage (or RAM) at a later date, so it's poor practice by Apple at best - that it doesn't impact on you doesn't change that.

Lots of interesting stuff there, none of which are really relevant to my point. I am buying an iMac with 2TB to go along with the 12TB and 8TB HDDs attached externally, so understand all the reasoning for needing more storage as well. I just understand that not everyone has the same requirements.

To simplify my point. 256gb is plenty for many people, despite what some people on here are saying about massive games and files etc.

That's all I am saying.

 

[hans1972]

It's got nothing to do with 'regular users' (whatever they are) suddenly changing or any other of the excuses you gave.

The latest Tomb Raider trilogy is an 80GB install alone...that is typical use.

Editing some footage in iMovie...that is typical use.

Having multiple user accounts on one iMac...that is typical use and for all those things 256GB is simply not enough.

Playing games on a Mac isn't what I call typical use. Anyway, 80Gb for a game still leaves about 150Gb free space.

What I mean by a regular user for a low-end Mac:

• The browser is the most important application
• High likelihood of using webmail as Gmail/Outlook.com, might also use the built-in applications to handle mail and calendering
• Light usage of an office suite as Microsoft Office / Google Apps (all web based) / Apple's
• Communication software like Zoom, Teams, Skype, FaceTime
• Playing music and podcasts, most likely Music / Podcast/ Spotify
• Light usage of application for photos and movies, most likely Photos and iMovie (where the content is synced from iCloud Photo Library)
• Maybe one misc. application for handling a printer or a Garmin device or MyHeritage

Very little of the above usage will require local storage if you are a user of iCloud and other cloud services.

For most of these "regular" users, 256Gb will be fine.

 

[KeithJenner]

Playing games on a Mac isn't what I call typical use. Anyway, 80Gb for a game still leaves about 150Gb free space.

What I mean by a regular user for a low-end Mac:

• The browser is the most important application
• High likelihood of using webmail as Gmail/Outlook.com, might also use the built-in applications to handle mail and calendering
• Light usage of an office suite as Microsoft Office / Google Apps (all web based) / Apple's
• Communication software like Zoom, Teams, Skype, FaceTime
• Playing music and podcasts, most likely Music / Podcast/ Spotify
• Light usage of application for photos and movies, most likely Photos and iMovie (where the content is synced from iCloud Photo Library)
• Maybe one misc. application for handling a printer or a Garmin device or MyHeritage

Very little of the above usage will require local storage if you are a user of iCloud and other cloud services.

For most of these "regular" users, 256Gb will be fine.

Yes, I agree completely.

That may not be typical use for Macrumors regulars. It isn't for me. But I believe (and I may be wrong) that it is a very common usage in the real world amongst Mac users.

 

[hans1972]

Editing some footage in iMovie...that is typical use.

Having multiple user accounts on one iMac...that is typical use and for all those things 256GB is simply not enough.

I would argue that the number of low-end iMac users editing amateur footage in iMovie isn't high and it doesn't require a lot of local storage.

• Most people don't edit their vidoes
• Most people with a Mac take videos with their iPhone
• Some of them edit it on iPhone and iPads instead of a Mac
• OS with iCloud Photo Library don't need to have all videos in local storage, only the one you need
• When you get low on disk space, macOS will compress or delete what you don't use off your local Mac

Again, if you do a lot of video editing, you might need more storage, which is why Apple offers you the choice to get up to 2Tb SSD in addition to use both NAS and DAS.

The default choice doesn't have to work for everyone.

 

[4sallypat]

.... I don't keep a damn thing on my iMac. ...... 256 GB SSD would be plenty for me.

Finally now we both agree on something!

All my Mac stuff is automatically backed up on my work's NAS & duplicated onto remote backup servers.

Then I have stuff in Google Drive which has UNLIMITED storage.

Plus I keep local backups on my external SSD Thunderbolt drives.

I never fill up my 256GB Mac....