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Please refrain from quoting the way you do. It's _very_ poor form. If you have something to say, say it yourself instead of putting words in other people's mouth using strawmen in the process and twisting people's words.


And how many updates are left for 10.5? I'm sure they'll leave PPC owners with something close to the stability of SL.

Who knows? So far they seem to have introduced an awful lot of bugs, and they seem very slow at fixing the ones there are, or even acknowledging them.
 
It doesn't matter if you think it's a "Moral issue", "ethics" or matter of principles or not. The moment you pretend he was saying he was bitching about not being able to afford it, you made a god-awful strawman argument.

There's a difference between purposely diverting the topic at hand to make it easier to attack, and taking what a person says differently than another person. You're too quick to throw around your knowledge of the logic 101 course you took in high school.

Feeling 10.6 should be discounted (or free) like the 6 years of XP updates could either be a moral issue (the position you feel he truly is taking), or a pure money issue (The position I feel he's truly taking).

I choose to believe he's upset because he has to yet again buy a new operating system. You feel he's upset because he feels Apple is cheating him / decieving him into buying a new operating system (which is the reason he mentioned the all-so-defective 10.5). No logically fallacy committed, sorry.
 
Please refrain from quoting the way you do. It's _very_ poor form. If you have something to say, say it yourself instead of putting words in other people's mouth using strawmen in the process and twisting people's words.
First of all, there are no "mouths" to be putting words into. I made it quite clear that I was replacing your words with mine own and there is no possible way that anyone would think you wrote that.

Now, if I said "Tosser told me he enjoys talking young chavs to gay bathhouses" then that would be stating something that be incorrectly assumed as something you wrote or said. But I would never say such a thing.

Who knows? So far they seem to have introduced an awful lot of bugs, and they seem very slow at fixing the ones there are, or even acknowledging them.
Someone willing to look at the whole picture could interpret that the continuing issues among Leopard point releases is an indicator that OS X has reached a point that it can no longer effectively move forward while supporting PPC and Leopard. Which is further backed by the public announcement of "no new features".
 
10.6 quicktime pref. pane

This is what I found when trying to edit quicktime preferences in snow leopard
Picture1.png
 
With all the combinations of hardware and software out there I'm surprised Windows works at all!

That's because Apple propagates the myth that hardware routinely conflicts with other hardware, and that an OS can only be truly stable if all the permutations of hardware combinations are factored into its design.

This is wrong.
 
If you cannot afford a $129.99 OS X upgrade, you shouldn't be thinking about upgrading in the first place? If you do not have the cash, stay with what you have. Don't cry to us about it. Are you going to tell me 10.4 and 10.5 do not preform to your needs? There's not an obligation to upgrade.

You're right, I'm cheap... lazy too, here's my response:

How can you get from "moral issue" (i.e. ethics, that is) and "on principle" to your version: "cannot afford"? There's quite a difference between those thing. You see, when it's about ethics and principles, it doesn't matter if it's 10 cents or 10.000 dollars. It's, as one would rightfully assume, the principle.

I really couldn't have said it better.
 
I know what you mean! - I found a solution :D

I have a similar setup, just less ram, and since I put Leopard on, it seems... sluggish. Before it used to load the desktop quicker than I could get out of the room, but I easily have 1 minute or so to play around before it's fully up and running. Maybe a reinstall may fix it, but it's such a hassle.

My installation of Leopard was really sluggish after install and it continued up to 10.5.3 which I installed recently. So, in frustration, I backed EVERYTHING up onto DVD-RW discs (Word of Warning: Takes 5 hrs, don't do it :D), Trashed everything else, erased my HDD and reinstalled Leopard from scratch and installed 10.5.3 immediately. As soon as the computer rebooted from the 10.5.3 install, Leopard was and still is, the snappiest OS X that I have used to date. I put it down to the fact that upgrading from Tiger made Leopard sluggish and unusable. Heyo, even Xcode is compiling things in 1/4 of the time than before!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Before I erased, I set some settings in Finder's View Options to make it run faster - untick Show Icon Preview and Use Relative Dates and Calculate All Sizes. With these settings, Finder runs waaaaayyyyyyy faster if it's slow. :D:D

Cheers!

allbrokeup
:apple::eek::mad::apple:
 
Where are they admitting that the code is defective?

You have intentionally distorted what I was saying. It's not that they're updating, it's what they're updating.

Please read "Stability and performance enhancements", which means their product was bad enough that they needed to release a whole revision devoted only to cleaning it up.

By my definition, writing bad code is what defines software as defective. Perfecting that code is akin to "fixing" those defects. 10.6, therefore is a "fix"

10.6 does almost nothing other than fix bugs. Companies shouldn't charge that much (or, ideally, at all) for bug fixes to products they sold as finished.

Buy your logic, you would also have to think that a new OS would be less defective. Have you compared Vista and XP?

I think you meant "By", not "buy". Also, I would say Vista had plenty of defects, and I would take the type of fixes in the early Vista updates as evidence of that. I said that about XP SP0 had quite a few.

However, when MS enhanced stability and speed, they gave away the update for free. I think that's the morally right thing to do here.

I'm not even saying 10.5 is defective, I'm just saying it has defects. Apple should not charge to fix those defects. Or, at least, they should not charge full price for an update consisting totally of bug fixes.

Try using Monolithic to remove all the PPC code from an Intel machine or all the Intel code from a PPC machine. You can save GBs depending on what apps you have installed and which CPU architecture you are using. Disclaimer: I don't recommend doing this on your only working machine.

Why don't you try and find some real statistics to back that up. Most of the weight of mac programs is app resources which are not compiled for either instruction set.

I really don't know what I can do to convince you that saving a couple gigs on your hard drive is not among Apple's concerns here.

Sure, it'll save some space, but it's not going to speed anything up and neither concern is why Apple dropped PPC!

Your logic is so flawed that we can safely say that you have not even begun to think it through. Code is much more efficient but we still need faster machines because we do more complex things with it. Grand Central and OpenCL appear to be doing complex tasks that will speed up other tasks.

You, my friend, have no idea what you're talking about. There is nothing magical about Intel processors that allows them to do these things.

Hell, OpenCL is for the GPU, which are more advanced in some G5's than some Intel macs!!
-> The Macbook doesn't even HAVE accelerated graphics! Holy lord!
-> Core image was offloading to G4/G5's GPU's since 10.4!


Grand Central is what? a tool to make programs more multithreaded? You do realize there are PLENTY of dual processor G4's and G5's, right?

Did you go back in time and erase these technologies from PPC macs? Are you that T1000 guy from the Schwarzenegger movie? Why didn't you say something? I haven't seen John Conner! Leave Britney alone!


-------------------
I'd like to clarify that I'm not assuming Apple is going to sell 10.6 for the full price, nor am I saying I wont pay for it. I'm just saying: My opinion is that they shouldn't, from a moral standpoint.
 
PPC Status

Again, if you're a G5 owner and they're dropping PPC support, there is no obligation to upgrade your operating system. Stay with 10.4 and 10.5, both of which will work fine on PPC.
No, 10.4 will be unsecure on the Internet as soon as 10.6 ships, according to Apple's own policy of dropping support as soon as they ship a next-newer product.

But there is good news, unless you're a PPC-hater.

10.6 has Rosetta, and the kernel does boot on PPC. The OS does not load, but I believe that is because Apple is only interested in testing 10.6 on Intel while it is under heavy construction. PPC platforms will be brought in closer to release. If the whole 'snow leopard' plan was to kill PPC, there wouldn't be a new kernel built for PPC in 10.6.
 
Can't wait to see the performance numbers.

Definitely. My bet is that across the board, there won't be anything huge to talk about until they get to OpenCL/Grand Central. The Apple Marketing team is going to have a field day with that. "Up to 10x faster!"

Edit: I see that Apple still likes to compare Mac Pros to Power Macs.
 
By my definition, writing bad code is what defines software as defective. Perfecting that code is akin to "fixing" those defects. 10.6, therefore is a "fix"

10.6 does almost nothing other than fix bugs. Companies shouldn't charge that much (or, ideally, at all) for bug fixes to products they sold as finished.

Hate to bud into the discussion but going by your definition something like Windows 7 should be free as well. They rewrote and fixed the Windows kernel so it is optimized and has a smaller foot print. If say Microsoft rewrote Explorer and added WinFS to Windows 7 would you say that it should be free as well?
 
Stability and performance are definitely valuable to me. If the improvements are in the right areas, then I'll be buying.
 
Hate to bud into the discussion but going by your definition something like Windows 7 should be free as well. They rewrote and fixed the Windows kernel so it is optimized and has a smaller foot print. If say Microsoft rewrote Explorer and added WinFS to Windows 7 would you say that it should be free as well?

I guess we still need to wait for the detail of windows 7.

I do find your argument some what valid, however, only if you are thinking inside the apple box, its apple itself who has been taunting all 300+ new features (mostly crap IMHO) in each update, and thus its kinda hard to justify the $129 for limited "new features" in 10.6.

Windows users don't think this way, thats not to say they are cheated by M$, on windows side, there are more to an OS than a re-dressed mail client or meaningless "new features". Which is what? which has always been stability and performance and security. pretty UI is a fine addition, DX10 is a fine addition too, but not many windows users would just update for the sake of that.

Also, in windows world, newest OS isn't pushed down effectively, and old OS always has a much longer life in more percentage of users. So its quite different style there.
 
There's a difference between purposely diverting the topic at hand to make it easier to attack, and taking what a person says differently than another person.

Yes, there is. Purposely pretending you opponent is saying something completely different than what he is, all in order to be able to attack it, that is a strawman.

You're too quick to throw around your knowledge of the logic 101 course you took in high school.

Funny, that. If you truly believe it's logic 101, why the hell are you doing it, then?

Feeling 10.6 should be discounted (or free) like the 6 years of XP updates could either be a moral issue (the position you feel he truly is taking), or a pure money issue (The position I feel he's truly taking).
Well, when someone uses the term "on principle", that should be a dead-giveaway that this is about _principles_ not about affordability. It's not about feelings, it's about logic. That 101 was apparently wasted effort.



I choose to believe he's upset because he has to yet again buy a new operating system.
You can choose to believe whatever you want, but when you pretend that "on principle" means "cannot afford it", you have moved from being reasonable to be manipulative and using strawmen.


You feel he's upset because he feels Apple is cheating him / decieving him into buying a new operating system (which is the reason he mentioned the all-so-defective 10.5). No logically fallacy committed, sorry.

I'm not "feeling" anything, for the last time, nor has anyone of us talked about being "deceived" or being "cheated into buying" anything. YOu ought to read up on that 101-course - it's seems rather rusty.





First of all, there are no "mouths" to be putting words into.
Excuse me, but it has never been meant literally, when someone is saying "don't put words into my mouth". Get real, will you.


I made it quite clear that I was replacing your words with mine own and there is no possible way that anyone would think you wrote that.

Yes, I know you wrote "Fixed!" After you molested my post, but that's simply not good enough. Further, you purposely used this form instead of posting a real reply instead of using arguments. It's not even rhetorics, not even a half-assed argument, it's just piss poor form from you.

If you cannot see why, let me explain it:
It's not just about you syaing you changed my post or not, it's about you changing it, making it seem like I said the opposite of your nonsense.


Now, if I said "Tosser told me he enjoys talking young chavs to gay bathhouses" then that would be stating something that be incorrectly assumed as something you wrote or said. But I would never say such a thing.

Actually, it's not the same. Have you said something like that it would be on you. When you do it the other way, you're pretending I said the opposite of what you changed it to.

I cannot believe both of you are unable to fathom concepts such as "ethics", "principles", and "valid arguments/debate form".



Someone willing to look at the whole picture could interpret that the continuing issues among Leopard point releases is an indicator that OS X has reached a point that it can no longer effectively move forward while supporting PPC and Leopard. Which is further backed by the public announcement of "no new features".

That last sentence about "no new features" does in no way back up the claim that OS X cannot move forward without ditching PPC. Talk about a leap of logic.
 
Officially no one with Snow Leopard is allowed to talk about it, yet around a year out we know Snow Leopard will include the following:

- Exchange Support (which means new versions of iCal, Address Book and Mail)
- Quicktime X
- Grand Central Dispatch (for faster scheduling of processes on multicore machines)
- ZFS (new option for file system)
- 64 bit versions of many bundled Applications
- Performance and Speed increases across the board

And people quite confidently assert Snow Leopard will not have any new features and won't be worth the upgrade (even though at this stage we don't actually know how much this upgrade will cost).

Puzzles me.

When Apple said that Snow Leoaprd is “taking a break from adding new features”, they meant that there wouldn't be any new marketing features (from Apple think Spaces, Reflective Dock, from Microsoft think Start Button, Aero, Office Ribbon and from Mozilla think “Awesome Bar”). In other words, some good things, but mostly gimmicks.

No new features does not mean no improvements. The “No new features” tag sounds to me like it is designed to temper the rabid imaginations of some, which inevitably leads to disappointment.

Seems to me Apple's marketing strategy is the exact reverse of Microsoft's for Vista. Now Windows Vista is a good OS, but the hype made it sound like the second coming, hence the reality could never ever hope to match up.

Meanwhile Snow Leopard will not be built up much and Apple will play it down as something more akin to a maintenance release. Then when it is delivered customers and enterprises will be presently surprised.

Under promise, over deliver.
 
Officially no one with Snow Leopard is allowed to talk about it, yet around a year out we know Snow Leopard will include the following:

- Exchange Support (which means new versions of iCal, Address Book and Mail)
- Quicktime X
- Grand Central Dispatch (for faster scheduling of processes on multicore machines)
- ZFS (new option for file system)
- 64 bit versions of many bundled Applications
- Performance and Speed increases across the board

And people quite confidently assert Snow Leopard will not have any new features and won't be worth the upgrade (even though at this stage we don't actually know how much this upgrade will cost).

Puzzles me.
.... no one talk about it? how did you get these quite confident information? not to say they are false, but... still, if you can confidently make guesses, others can too.
When Apple said that Snow Leoaprd is “taking a break from adding new features”, they meant that there wouldn't be any new marketing features (from Apple think Spaces, Reflective Dock, from Microsoft think Start Button, Aero, Office Ribbon and from Mozilla think “Awesome Bar”). In other words, some good things, but mostly gimmicks.
I think you make these statements like a real insider of all those companies, which is, IMHO, impossible.

At least AFAIK, the marketing tricks of firefox 3 is speed, memory management, security, ease of use, awesomebar, full page zoom, password manager, cairo, etc

for Vista, I might not be an insider, but I know they have been addressing security, start penal search, etc as well.

No new features does not mean no improvements. The “No new features” tag sounds to me like it is designed to temper the rabid imaginations of some, which inevitably leads to disappointment.
agreed. however, its unfortunately apple's own fault, rabid imaginations were hyped by apple's marketing team in all previous versions of OSX.
Seems to me Apple's marketing strategy is the exact reverse of Microsoft's for Vista. Now Windows Vista is a good OS, but the hype made it sound like the second coming, hence the reality could never be as good.
oh my god, you must be living in another space, hype around vista? count again see how many reviews are positive about it when it come out?

Finally, My main point is not saying addressing stability and performance is a bad thing at all. Im just saying it makes previous hype around every previous OSX release so ridiculous. Its like people have no thinking skills and take whatever talking points apple throw at them.... new feature... yeahhh,,, no new feature... yeah..... ????? .... yeah...... Its just amazing.
 

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.... no one talk about it? how did you get these quite confident information? not to say they are false, but... still

But people have spilled the beans already! This tells me that:
[1] All of the above features are features which Apple intends to include in the final release. As 4/6 are on their website already, it's hardly all insider info that we are dealing with!
[2] Due to the nature of an NDA, there will be other features which we don't yet know about.

The nature of leaks is that some things leak, but not everything.

if you can confidently make guesses, others can too.
I'm not making guesses. I've seen screen captures of the WWDC build, I've read the page on Apple's Website, I've read articles from good sources. I've followed the updates on MacRumours.

As mentioned before — 4/6 of my “guessed” features are listed on Apple's website! Guess work? Not so much.

I think you make these statements like a real insider of all those companies, which is, IMHO, impossible.
No, all these marketing features are found on currently shipping products (Vista, OS X Leoapard and Firefox). No inside information needed!

At least AFAIK, the marketing tricks of firefox 3 is speed, memory management, security, ease of use, awesomebar, full page zoom, password manager, cairo, etc

for Vista, I might not be an insider, but I know they have been addressing security, start penal search, etc as well.

Congratulations, you just completely missed the point.

The point I was making had very little to do with those products in particular, they were just well known examples I picked.

Obviously all three have many good features aside from the glitzy marketing features. You have named many of them for Firefox and Vista.

The point was to demonstrate that often tech companies feel that they need marketing features to get customers excited and engaged in their products. Often when you peal back the layers these features you discover they are not that exciting after all (although some are).

There is nothing controversial in any of the above and very little to debate. Either I did not made myself clear in the original post or you have = mis-read or misinterpreted my post.

agreed. however, its unfortunately apple's own fault, rabid imaginations were hyped by apple's marketing team in all previous versions of OSX.
Exactly, but Apple can't go back and change the past, they can only change in the future.

oh my god, you must be living in another space, hype around vista? count again see how many reviews are positive about it when it come out?
Hype from Microsoft. 500M US Dollars of hype. And they are going to spend even more later in the year according to Steve Ballmer.

The wow starts now. All that wow!

Hype years before about Longhorn, WinFS etc. etc.

There was plenty of hype. This time round the general tech media choose not to buy in to much of it this time round. In other words — the hype backfired.

As almost every self respecting tech blogger has noticed this, then it will have almost certainly been noted both by Redmond and Cupertino.

Finally, My main point is not saying addressing stability and performance is a bad thing at all. Im just saying it makes previous hype around every previous OSX release so ridiculous. Its like people have no thinking skills and take whatever talking points apple throw at them.... new feature... yeahhh,,, no new feature... yeah..... ????? .... yeah...... Its just amazing.

Considering Apple's track proven track record of delivering improvements across the board for the last 7 years to OS X (which was an immature product when it shipped) I think high expectations are not completely without foundation.

I could think of a few other products from other companies (which have a far less solid track record of delivery than Apple) over the last few years that also have had a fair bit of hype. That debate is for another day.

Apple's approach is to temper that optimism. The message would probably be — yes we can deliver something good or even great, but no we can't deliver the impossible, so adjust your expectations accordingly.
 
Hype from Microsoft. 500M US Dollars of hype. And they are going to spend even more later in the year according to Steve Ballmer.

The wow starts now. All that wow!

Hype years before about Longhorn, WinFS etc. etc.

Considering Apple's track proven track record of delivering improvements across the board for the last 7 years to OS X (which was an immature product when it shipped) .

Apple's approach is to temper that optimism.

ha, tell me which one costs more, 3 ads of wow starts now? or endless pc vs. mac?

for windows, at least people talked about through 7 years period, for OSX,, its hype year after year, from MWSD to MDC two or three times a year for some meaningless stuff.

and I seriously think Its amazing apple can push the immature stuff to soo many people and they seems were pretty crazy about it?

Apple's approach has always been hype, even the "temper of the high expectation" seems become another hype in mystic way.
 
I saw ZFS mentioned and I flipped.. ZFS is huge and mega cool, and I hadn't heard of it going into 10.6 till now. ZFS is way cooler than time machine (the major selling point for 10.5.. unless you thought it was stacks..), for sure.


They only mention it on the OS X server page... is it on client too?
 
I saw ZFS mentioned and I flipped.. ZFS is huge and mega cool, and I hadn't heard of it going into 10.6 till now. ZFS is way cooler than time machine (the major selling point for 10.5.. unless you thought it was stacks..), for sure.


They only mention it on the OS X server page... is it on client too?

I don't think it's been announced as a client feature yet. We can hope though...
 
I realize this but the article states:

"This allows users to save specific websites as self-contained applications that can be launched independently of Safari"

Which is misleading.

Don't misconstrue the WebKit/WebCore backends with Safari and therefore Apple is misleading the public.

The CustomView will load webkit to parse the html/xhtml/css/javascript and what sort of custom controls Apple exposes for general purpose uses will allow one to read the website like some sort of eBook.
 
This is what I found when trying to edit quicktime preferences in snow leopard
Picture1.png

SL is clearly still a work in progress. Otherwise everyone would be able to get it. So give Apple a few months to fully optimize everything. I'm sure they'll make it so all the preference planes can open in 64-bit.

...

although it's error messages like that that really get me irritated.

It's like... why the hell do I care? Restart it for me and make it run. System Preferenes starts up very quickly... it seems like they could even make some kind of transition from 64 bit to 32 bit mode. Like it blurs for a quarter second as it closes 64 bit and launches 32 bit and puts the window in the exact same spot. It'll look like as good a transition as anything else in Leopard I'm sure.
 
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