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Xbox 360 - Backwards Compatible
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1. If we didn't see an XBox emulator for x86 Windows, we're not going to see one for PowerPC Mac.
2. VirtualPC is slow because all graphics are emulated. It's not unreasonable for Microsoft to write native PPC calls for graphics and a native, hardware-accelerated version of DirectX8. This is now NT ran 16-bit software, and how the original PowerMacs ran 680x0 software.
3. Can we stop talking about the XBox 360? As a game console, it's the least impressive of the three next-generations. The PS3 has a Cell... now that's what I'd like to see carried over to the Mac... a non-symmetrical multiprocessing machine with a 97x and a Cell, and all the Core Image stuff ported to Cell units.
2. VirtualPC is slow because all graphics are emulated. It's not unreasonable for Microsoft to write native PPC calls for graphics and a native, hardware-accelerated version of DirectX8. This is now NT ran 16-bit software, and how the original PowerMacs ran 680x0 software.
3. Can we stop talking about the XBox 360? As a game console, it's the least impressive of the three next-generations. The PS3 has a Cell... now that's what I'd like to see carried over to the Mac... a non-symmetrical multiprocessing machine with a 97x and a Cell, and all the Core Image stuff ported to Cell units.
It means you have to byte-swap and word-swap, as appropriate, because the data are organized little-endian vs big-endian. Think about in terms of written languages, where one reads left-to-right and another reads right-to-left. It's somewhat different, since we are talking numbers here, so one "language" has its smallest number to the right, while the other has its smallest number (least significant digit) to the left. If the native data stream isn't the same as the native processor alignment, you have to spend a lot of energy (work, cpu instructions) swapping data around to order them correctly.Ti_Poussin said:
Booga said:
I'm not exactly sure how the lack of information on the Revolution is more impressive than the Xbox 360...
I posted a thread on this very topic 2 days ago.
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MacRumors? Or RocksaurusRumors?
"USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION NEWBS!!1"
SeaFox said:
Really? That would be amazing! You'd have to have a slot load for the Game Cube games, a slot for the N64 games and another for the Super Nintendo games? O and don't forget, the problem with GameCube is that it doesn't hold a full sized disc so you can't play dvds on it and you can't put you CDs on the consol so that you hear your own personal music on the game - So you would have to have a full sized disc area too.
hmm... to me, (I'm not a designer) but it would look like some soort of box with a bunch of holes in it... that wouldn;t llook very good!
Book E standard, and non-compliant PPC970s
Fair enough....
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG19990507S0003
See also http://news.com.com/2100-1040-225442.html?legacy=cnet
So, Moto and IBM create an architectural definition of what a PowerPC should be, and encourage vendors to "follow the book".
http://encyclopedia.lockergnome.com/s/b/PowerPC (a page or two down, under the heading "Design Features"):
The next couple of paragraphs explain it in more detail.
See also http://www.shahine.com/omar/CommentView,guid,e706c1bf-87fe-4cd0-aa78-a78ac023cd4a.aspx
__________________________________
So, there was all the hype about a "common, compatible architecture", and Connectix did the work to use one of these defined features to significantly improve VPC's performance.
Then, Apple stupidly (because they didn't realize it) or arrogantly (because they didn't care) chose a non-Book E compliant chip from IBM - the PPC970.
This not only broke Virtual PC for quite some time, but reduced the performance because of the non-standards compliant CPU that Apple chose.
But of course, you often find comments around here that it was something that Microsoft deliberately did to hurt the Mac.
You can also search the web for "virtual pc" g5 "little endian" for lots more on the topic.
Ti_Poussin said:
Fair enough....
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG19990507S0003
IBM, Motorola write Book E on the PowerPC
David Lammers David Lammers
EE Times (05/07/1999 11:02 AM EDT)
SAN JOSE, Calif. Motorola Inc. and IBM Corp. have announced Book E, a jointly written architectural definition and instruction set for embedded 64-bit PowerPC implementations.
Book E may give Motorola and IBM a way to present a common front in both the embedded and desktop sectors. It will build a foundation under system-on-a-chip designs that might incorporate intellectual property (IP) cores sourced from commercial IP vendors, or from the core libraries now under construction at both IBM and Motorola.
Over the next year both companies will come out with next-generation PowerPC controllers that adhere to the Book E definition, and will work to ensure that tool vendors create a common software-development environment. The companies also will offer PowerPC licenses to customers and foundries that want a wider number of sources for high-volume designs."
David Lammers David Lammers
EE Times (05/07/1999 11:02 AM EDT)
SAN JOSE, Calif. Motorola Inc. and IBM Corp. have announced Book E, a jointly written architectural definition and instruction set for embedded 64-bit PowerPC implementations.
Book E may give Motorola and IBM a way to present a common front in both the embedded and desktop sectors. It will build a foundation under system-on-a-chip designs that might incorporate intellectual property (IP) cores sourced from commercial IP vendors, or from the core libraries now under construction at both IBM and Motorola.
Over the next year both companies will come out with next-generation PowerPC controllers that adhere to the Book E definition, and will work to ensure that tool vendors create a common software-development environment. The companies also will offer PowerPC licenses to customers and foundries that want a wider number of sources for high-volume designs."
See also http://news.com.com/2100-1040-225442.html?legacy=cnet
So, Moto and IBM create an architectural definition of what a PowerPC should be, and encourage vendors to "follow the book".
http://encyclopedia.lockergnome.com/s/b/PowerPC (a page or two down, under the heading "Design Features"):
"The PowerPC is designed along RISC principles, and allows for a superscalar implementation. Versions of the design exist in both 32-bit and 64-bit implementations. Starting with the basic POWER specification, the PowerPC added:
Support for operation as in both Big-Endian and Little-Endian modes; the PowerPC can switch from one mode to the other at run-time (see below). This feature is not supported in the PowerPC G5. (This was the reason why Virtual PC took so long to be made functional on G5-based Macintoshes.)"
Support for operation as in both Big-Endian and Little-Endian modes; the PowerPC can switch from one mode to the other at run-time (see below). This feature is not supported in the PowerPC G5. (This was the reason why Virtual PC took so long to be made functional on G5-based Macintoshes.)"
The next couple of paragraphs explain it in more detail.
See also http://www.shahine.com/omar/CommentView,guid,e706c1bf-87fe-4cd0-aa78-a78ac023cd4a.aspx
__________________________________
So, there was all the hype about a "common, compatible architecture", and Connectix did the work to use one of these defined features to significantly improve VPC's performance.
Then, Apple stupidly (because they didn't realize it) or arrogantly (because they didn't care) chose a non-Book E compliant chip from IBM - the PPC970.
This not only broke Virtual PC for quite some time, but reduced the performance because of the non-standards compliant CPU that Apple chose.
But of course, you often find comments around here that it was something that Microsoft deliberately did to hurt the Mac.
You can also search the web for "virtual pc" g5 "little endian" for lots more on the topic.
The XBox360 is as "backwards compatible" as MS is "innovative." i.e., not at all. They have to recompile games for them to work, which is why only the "top selling" games are going to be "compatible". In other words, they're only going to spend the time and effort to port a few Xbox games, which makes sense given the total lack of real backwards compatibility.
--Eric
--Eric
w_parietti22 said:
You'll be able to buy the older games (pre-gamecube) on-line, if I'm not mistaken, but there won't be a physical slot for the games. As for Gamecube games, I'd imagine the Revolution's optical drive will be able to hold those small one's in a small part of the normal drive, just like on a computer.
XP on PowerPC probably still exists
Note that Windows CE runs on PowerPC, so at least parts of the NT codebase have been kept up to date on PPC.
I would wager that Microsoft has kept the XP fork running on PowerPC all these years. It would be very cheap to do, and would be great insurance. (Note that Apple keeps Darwin on x86 running....)
zachj said:
Note that Windows CE runs on PowerPC, so at least parts of the NT codebase have been kept up to date on PPC.
I would wager that Microsoft has kept the XP fork running on PowerPC all these years. It would be very cheap to do, and would be great insurance. (Note that Apple keeps Darwin on x86 running....)
gco212 said:
Yes that is correct, the old (pre-cube) games will be available to download, presumably for a price. The revolution has built in wifi so it can just connect to some kind of nintendo game store with that through whatever internet service you have (if you have a wifi access point).
gco212 said:
Hmmm... that would suck to have to buy them again if you still had all your old games in boxes or something.
Lethal
I believe that this original post is mis-quoted. From what I have read the Xbox 360 will be able to play some of the most popular titles from the original Xbox. I believe what this means is that Microsoft is going to put out some reproduced versions of old Xbox game that will work on the new Xbox 360. So if you already own Halo or Halo 2, you might have to go out and buy a whole new version to play on the Xbox 360. Microsoft might sell these at a low price like Sony does with some of it's most popular older games.
But, to be honest with everybody I am not really impressed by the Xbox 360 or the Playstation 3. These machines are going to be more powerful than the average home computer. They are probably going to be more expensive than the average home computer. I mean the graphics chip powering the Playstation 3 is more powerful than 2 Nvidia 6800's working side by side. And two 6800's cost around $500-$600. Plus, the Playstation 3 is going to use BluRay Technology and who knows what effect that wil have on the price. These things are going to be extremely expensive. Maybe the new Nintendo Revolution will come out as the champion because it will be the poor man's next gen video game system. I just think that the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 will feature too much for too much.
But, to be honest with everybody I am not really impressed by the Xbox 360 or the Playstation 3. These machines are going to be more powerful than the average home computer. They are probably going to be more expensive than the average home computer. I mean the graphics chip powering the Playstation 3 is more powerful than 2 Nvidia 6800's working side by side. And two 6800's cost around $500-$600. Plus, the Playstation 3 is going to use BluRay Technology and who knows what effect that wil have on the price. These things are going to be extremely expensive. Maybe the new Nintendo Revolution will come out as the champion because it will be the poor man's next gen video game system. I just think that the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 will feature too much for too much.
http://www.nintendo.com/newsarticle?articleid=5aa8631e-d4a0-45d9-a88c-e5931b807091
Here's the official Nintendo link. That and I believe it's going to be $100 cheaper than the 360º (and $280 less than the PS3). I believe there will be a lot of people buying a revolution exclusively for the old classic games.
Here's the official Nintendo link. That and I believe it's going to be $100 cheaper than the 360º (and $280 less than the PS3). I believe there will be a lot of people buying a revolution exclusively for the old classic games.
I don't know where this "recompiling" rumor has come from, but the XBox360 Live Director of Programming Larry Hryb has stated publicly that the games will be emulated... no download, recompilation, or repurchase necessary.
The XBox360 will be emulating the first XBox's title, probably directly mapping whatever calls it can, and software emulating whatever else is necessary. I would not be surprised to see some of the XBox's supporting chips reprise their roles (or take on different roles) in the new system, a la Sony. However, it does not appear that MS will be putting a Celeron onboard, so there will obviously be some conversion required.
http://www.majornelson.com/2005/05/19/no-you-do-not-need-to-recompile-your-xbox-games/
The XBox360 will be emulating the first XBox's title, probably directly mapping whatever calls it can, and software emulating whatever else is necessary. I would not be surprised to see some of the XBox's supporting chips reprise their roles (or take on different roles) in the new system, a la Sony. However, it does not appear that MS will be putting a Celeron onboard, so there will obviously be some conversion required.
http://www.majornelson.com/2005/05/19/no-you-do-not-need-to-recompile-your-xbox-games/
oskar said:
Agreed. No way Virtual PC has the kick possible to run those games (I don't care how much hardware you throw at it). Virtual PC could be so much better please Microsoft make it so. Have this development pretty much be one in the same. I wish but don't think it will happen.
Forget backwards compatability and all that other hoo-haw. What I am interested in is how will this affect gaming on the Mac platform? Will games made for the X-Box 360 be easily ported to the Mac? This could be a boon for Mac gaming.
madamimadam said:
what are you talking about?? nintendo games are extremely compelling and original as hell. if you're impressed by a sci-fi shooter and think it's compelling... nevermind. halo has been done before, many times, and with the same success. nintendo at least tries new stuff out, i'll buy a revo over some stupid xbox 360 dell tower anyway. graphics don't make the game, and don't be impressed by all these numbers sony and msft are throwing out, they aren't even final. developers don't even have access to that power yet, they dev kits sent out are crippled as hell using today's technology. at least nintendo is honest and won't release specs until they are 100% official, and when they come out they won't dissapoint. meh, w/e. maybe i'm a nintendo zealot but how can you not be? N invented the rumble pak... stolen by sony, N was first to make 1st party wireless controller.. copied by microsoft... microsoft has too much money already i'm not giving them another cent.
BornAgainMac said:
You are probably right. The thing that makes this article/rumor interesting is the fact that VPC will have to be used. I can't see them recompiling that easy.
This will be very interesting to see how all this plays out.
