Xbox 360 demos on Macs

[crap freakboy]

IBM might introduce a new PowerPC workstation based on Power5, Which supports virtualization? So is MSFT planning to make their OS for IBM Power (30% of the market share in Big iron) based servers (b'cos XP and server 2003 largely share the same code base)?

I doubt that these games will move to mac any more than what they do now. Most of the code will be based on MSFT - XNA (own api/Framework for gamedevelopment) + DirectX - so porting the code will to next to impossible!

Last but not the least Windows XP/Longhorn for Macs!

That was just noise!

 

[Detlev_73]

Funny

How funny in a hypocrital sort of way.

 

[DickArmAndHarT]

I think you got it reversed.

OS X on a PC. Best of both worlds.

os x on a mac. Best

 

[bushgreen]

there are no developer kits that have 3.2ghz G5s with 3 cores and a next generation ati card. so this means all the games have been made using the dual 2.5Ghz with ati x800 cards or previous dual 2ghz G5s ati 9800 cards. that means the games shown are probably using only 50% of the xbox 360s power.

another thing is that all games shown were in high def and had extremely good graphics, especailly games such as test drive unlimited , project gotham racing 3 and unreal tournament 2007 . knowing the fact that these games are made on current powermac technology, it shows how good games can be on the Powermac G5s when optimized properly.

 

[~Shard~]

All I have to say is that this story makes me happy. A bit of poetic justice you could say...

 

[oskar]

That's kind of hilarious, nice thing to throw in the face of your average mac-bashing friend... but I suppose there's not a bit of apple software on it though?!

Ummm... no. If Microsoft were designing their operating system or PCs with a Mac, then maybe. Not a gaming console. BTW I hardly know any "Mac-Bashers". It is usually "PC-Bashers" I hear especially on these forums. (Oh and I'm a Mac user only.)

MWAHAHAHH microsoft has to use the apple's g5!!! HAHAHAH thats so freakin funny!

They're using good technology to make an outstanding gaming console, or rather test and develop the games. No surprise there. Microsoft doesn't seem to be afraid of using a competitor's hardware for developing better tech.

Or maybe it just shows that Microsoft is a mature corporation, not one that makes decisions based on "religious" issues or the ego of the CEO.

Exactly. This is something that Apple has always had problems with, IMO. They've developed some tech and try to prove it is the best when sometimes it is actually outperformed by the competition, but by no means do they plan on adopting the competitors' ways. The great exception is our beloved iPod which stands out over everything else no matter what anybody says. But... where has Apple gone with that? iPods everywhere, $tock much higher, power for power users down.
I just hope that the XBox 360 means better processors or all new technology for near future Apple products.

 

[rickvanr]

Or maybe it just shows that Microsoft is a mature corporation, not one that makes decisions based on "religious" issues or the ego of the CEO.

Until recently, I'm quite sure Jobs at Pixar was not using macs.

 

[gregoryp]

Future of Mac Mini?

So do you think Apple will purchase a bunch of xBox 360's so they can do some development for the next Mac Mini?

Interesting how Jobs keeps spouting off about being the "Digital Hub" of the home, yet Microsoft beats Apple to the punch with a digital hub of their own that blows the doors off the similarly sized Mac Mini. Oh yeah, and it is HALF the price. Hmmn. Stevie better get cracking! Can we start the June WWMD rumors now?

 

[DrNeroCF]

So... if one were to rip the OS from an xbox 2 (that directx for powerpc deal) and load it onto a PowerMac, would it run?

 

[harveypooka]

That's the funniest thing ever. They're basically saying, ho hum, "we'll replace it with something better". Yeah right! They've moved to the mac-side! Ha ha! Excellent! Just when will Apple adopt the three core, 3.2 ghz cpu?! There must be some differences between the MS powerPC and the Mac version? Or not?

 

[AidenShaw]

There are a lot differences as to how NT handles internals vs. how 2000 handles stuff ... vs. 2003 /XP handle stuff at the kernel level. x64 is not NT. x64/XP home/XP pro/ Server 2003/XP tablet/XP MCE - ALL share the same code base (read the first chapter in Windows Internals edition 4). So your XP home is more close (& literally has the same code) to Server 2003 than NT or 2000. If you want to customize it for the console you either need to rewrite the low level code ... write 20 different optimized compilers (which is THE most expensive and difficult part) or run emulation.

Windows 2000 == Windows NT 5.0
Windows XP == Windows NT 5.1
Windows Server 2003 = Windows NT 5.2

You are interpreting "NT" to mean "NT 4.0" or earlier. Most Windows-aware folks interpret "NT" to mean "any NT-based system" unless the version number is specified as 3.1, 3.5, 3.51 or 4.0.

Try saying "echo Operating system is %os%" on your Server 2003 system - it will say:

Operating system is Windows_NT​

So, of course MS would take the latest Server 2003 codebase (didn't I say that) which already has 64-bit support and hyperthreading-optimized scheduling, and customize that.

And BTW, the PPC compilers already exist - Visual Studio supported PPC, and Windows CE compilers exist for PPC (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/vcce/htm/evc_guide00_1.asp).

 

[SAukland]

Or maybe it just shows that Microsoft is a mature corporation, not one that makes decisions based on "religious" issues or the ego of the CEO.

I get it now. That's why Bill Gates banned the iPod at Redmond.

 

[Lacero]

I get it now. That's why Bill Gates banned the iPod at Redmond.

Or maybe he fears 60GB of company secrets stolen.

 

[SAukland]

Or maybe he fears 60GB of company secrets stolen.

Thats not what the supposed internal e-mails imply. Doubt they would cite iPod sales.

"There are frequent communications within the company about why it's a bad choice," the manager said. "So many people have chosen the iPod, executives feel they should send out memos about it."

For example, an internal e-mail circular sent to several senior managers in mid-December talked about iPod shipments to Apple's nearby store in Bellevue.

The e-mail said: "FWIW, the gal at the Bellevue Square Apple Store said that they are getting in two shipments of 200 iPods every day to keep up with this week's demand, and are nearly constantly selling out."
<snip>
Fifteen minutes later, the manager responded: "I don't know what I was thinking. I'm sure that Microsoft employees are not buying iPods, or Macs or PlayStations."

Nope, just the executives are buying macs.

 

[Montserrat]

Given the fancy water cooling affair in the ToTR PowerMacs - what does that mean for this new XBox.
Bytheway - hate the name XBox 360 - so tacky

As for the person who mentioned stealing 60Gb of M$ secrets - what would that contain - probably just the code for a login window given their expertise at bloat.

Having said all that - ability one day to play XBox games on a Mac with an emulator would be pretty damn cool.

Goodnight world

 

[deputy_doofy]

The reason this is so good is because for almost 2 decades, x86 users have been proclaiming the architecture's superiority over PPC. Regardless of whether the PMG5 is a stop-gap measure or not, the fact that Microsoft is not using the "superior" x86/Intel processing line says something more than any Apple zealot could.
Microsoft is using PPC in a dominant role. That says something about the role (and future) of PPC's importance.


P.S. My new dual 2.3GHz G5 rules.

 

[AidenShaw]

The reason this is so good is because for almost 2 decades, x86 users have been proclaiming the architecture's superiority over PPC.

PowerPC was introduced in 1993 (http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-powhist/), so your "almost 2 decades" is really "a little more than 1 decade".

Microsoft has been using ARM, PPC and other chips in the embedded market since forever. They've been very open to using the right technology for the application, without "religious" overtones.

The NT codebase is portable - Microsoft didn't get what it wanted from Intel, so it jumped. If PPC doesn't come through, it will be something else for Xbox3.

"something else" could be a hex-core MIPS, or x64, or something completely different. If the Xbox 360 had used a triple core x86 with 6 hyper-threads and a super SSE vector unit, would that have meant that PPC was dead and x86 ruled? No. MS is building custom silicon for a special purpose device - they got the best deal from IBM this time around.

The Xbox360 is a special custom embedded PPC design, which has almost no relevance to the fact that Apple uses a PPC970 in its systems. You won't have an ice cube's chance in hell of running OSX on an Xbox, and even less of a chance of finally getting state of the art Xbox games to run on OSX.

Microsoft could very well have specified that the Xbox chip swapped instruction codes, so that the binary instruction that says "add" on a PPC970 (AKA G5) says "multiply" on the Xbox. A trivial change (at the silicon level) which would absolutely block PPC970 code from running on the Xbox. And a trivial change for compilers - you just swap the codes for "add" and "multiply" in the architecture definition table.

Or, maybe the fact that the xbox 360 chip has "VMX-128" with 128 vector registers would make any old code written for the 32-register VMX on the PPC970 unusable.

MS isn't using a G5, they've paid for a custom architecture that's optimized for a game console.

 

[Dragonopolis]

Wake up people Xbox 360 is a PC killer

If microsoft can push that kind of graphic power out the door at game machine prices (300 to 400 max), there would be no need for anybody to buy a mac mini, imac, or any other intel/amd type machine. This new machine does everything my computer can do and better (as far as every day life things like pictures, movies, games ( and yes people it will do email and surf the net -- microsoft just waiting for Sony's move at E3 before whip'n out all their guns and ammo on table). Face the facts, if you can plug a web camera in any of the Three usb ports, you can plug a keyboard, mouse, and printer too. I don't care how loyal you are, you would be stupid as a consumer to pass up a 400 dollar (better to be pessimistic on price) PC killer.

Thankfully, Apple has access to the same technology.

LETS hope they use it (and not charge a premium for it)

 

[AidenShaw]

Thankfully, Apple has access to the same technology.

Why would you assume that?

This custom chip that Microsoft owns has very little in common with the PPC970 that Apple buys from IBM. Same with the custom ATI graphics chip.

The Xbox 360 has almost no relevance for Apple, except that Apple now has competition for the output from Fishkill. It could be that IBM is even slower at producing PPC970 chips because IBM will be making more money churning out processors for the Xbox 360.

My TiVo has a PPC processor, yet I need Windows to access its features like TiVo 2 go. The chip architecture isn't that important - the software is what one should worry about.

Everyone - breathe in, breathe out - and repeat: "The Xbox 360 is not using a PPC970. Move along now, these are not the droids that you're looking for...."

 

[Telomar]

The Xbox 360 has almost no relevance for Apple, except that Apple now has competition for the output from Fishkill. It could be that IBM is even slower at producing PPC970 chips because IBM will be making more money churning out processors for the Xbox 360.

Only thing is the processors aren't being built at Fishkill, or even by IBM for that matter. Microsoft owns the design so they could get the manufacturers into bidding wars over who was going to make it. For the first run they've gone with TSMC.

 

[DesterWallaboo]

They are ABSOLUTELY developing on G5's

My brother is an game engine designer and worked for Microsoft for a long period of time. He currently is working for another company that develops high-end console car gaming engines. He told me straight up that they are using G5's with OS X installed to develop their games. They have custom development software to right specifically for the XBOX 360... however, they can preview and run the games on the Mac for debugging.

 

[Dreadnought]

Hmm, maybe we can crack the hardware and make it a dual boot. Just like they do now with the xbox. Have the original os for gaming, and have (a stripped down) os 10 on it!!

 

[AidenShaw]

thanks for the information

Only thing is the processors aren't being built at Fishkill, or even by IBM for that matter. Microsoft owns the design so they could get the manufacturers into bidding wars over who was going to make it. For the first run they've gone with TSMC.

Thanks for the correction....

Here's some more:

http://www.tsmc.com/tsmcdotcom/PRLi...detail&LANG=E&newsid=1500&newsdate=2004/04/06

 

[Foniks Munkee]

My brother is an game engine designer and worked for Microsoft for a long period of time. He currently is working for another company that develops high-end console car gaming engines. He told me straight up that they are using G5's with OS X installed to develop their games. They have custom development software to right specifically for the XBOX 360... however, they can preview and run the games on the Mac for debugging.

Well, yes - it was much the same for the original XBox when it was released. Early in the piece developers used PC's to develop the code before Microsoft was able to release the dev kits proper.

It is much more likely (and already indicated in many of the reviews) that this an interim measure until production of the XBox 360 dev kits starts proper. Whether they stay with G5's or not is another thing - you see - with cross platform compilation it really doesn't matter what machine your using. As long as you have compilers written for the platform your working on your okay. For instance; write on a Windows PC, compile the binary and export to the dev kit for it to run. That is how the current PS2 and XBox dev kits work. They develop on PC's, usualy using Visual Studio, or maybe Metrowerks Codewarrior, but the binaries don't actually run natively.

While they are doing the initial development, i'll bet they are running it natively on the G5's, because they don't have dev kits to try it out on. And I also bet it runs at about 30% of the speed the final product will run at on the XBox 360 - all jittery and stuttery. Not a surprise, this was exactly what happened just prior to the XBox's initial release when coding on straight up windows boxes.

And to be honest, it really doesn't matter - there is an assumption here that for some reason Apple is winning something because Microsoft is resorting to using similar CPUs to those that appear in Apple machines. That may have been a more valid claim if the 360 included a version of OS X, but it doesn't. It will most definitely be one of the more modern variants of Windows CE. And even so, why the hell does it matter??

But anyhoo - I'm kinda surprised by the biggotry i'm seeing here, I am a game developer, and an avid windows user - but I want to try out Macs (specifically the Powerbooks) because I truly believe they are awesome machines. But after reading so many microsoft bashing posts that are born out of ignorance (not necessarily isolated to this forum) i'm just not so sure anymore. I'm a newby to the Mac world, and I probably would need to ask for help at some stage, but I don't want to do it while hearing all this rubbish about Apple being so damn awesome, there not - neither is microsoft - they just both happen to create tools that let us get some work done at the end of the day.

 

[killmoms]

But anyhoo - I'm kinda surprised by the biggotry i'm seeing here, I am a game developer, and an avid windows user - but I want to try out Macs (specifically the Powerbooks) because I truly believe they are awesome machines. But after reading so many microsoft bashing posts that are born out of ignorance (not necessarily isolated to this forum) i'm just not so sure anymore. I'm a newby to the Mac world, and I probably would need to ask for help at some stage, but I don't want to do it while hearing all this rubbish about Apple being so damn awesome, there not - neither is microsoft - they just both happen to create tools that let us get some work done at the end of the day.

Eh, it's a Mac board populated (to some extent) by zealots who are teenagers (or certainly ACT like them), and the rest of us are mature adults, some of whom you've met in this thread. Believe it or not, the MacNN boards are worse. Anywho, I'm sure you've been on PC boards where the Windows fanboys bash Mac all the time, or on Slashdot where the Linux fanboys bash everything all the time... it's just a matter of which environment you're in.

Anyway, glad to hear you're interested in the Mac world, and don't let a few extremists turn you off. On the whole, we're a friendly, logical bunch. Also, the "news" threads tend to get more attention than the help threads on other areas of these boards... just a thought.