Xbox Series X (coming 10 Nov 2020)

[mattspace]

something something EU DMA. Hardware sales in EU are flat and 3rd party devs are already trying to figure out if it is worth releasing games on the platform (supposedly).

I think there is a tendency for people to try to equate Apple's Appstore issues with games consoles, driven by shills like Gruber trying to call the iPhone an "App Console", which was a vacuous argument, which ignored that the Xbox is a manufacturer-subsidised product, whereas the iPhone isn't.

that is a novel solution, wonder if there would still be complaints.

There will always be complaints, Apple will no doubt engage in their usual astroturfing to try to manufacture an equuvelence to drag everyone down with them.

BUT gamepass ultimate as a bundle with discounted hardware could definitely be a thing. Thing is, the console is a tech-leader for Windows - it provides a stable test deployment target for new software.

They don't have to make money off the XBox on its own, so long as its contributing to the overall Windows / XBox / Gamepass ecosystem.

 

[Macalicious2011]

Why make a separate OS when they already have Windows?

Because Windows has never proven to be user-friendly on handheld devices.

 

[Zest28]

Why make a separate OS when they already have Windows?

Because Windows sucks.

It's why the SteamDeck (runs Linux) is wrecking other handheld gaming devices that run Windows despite having superior hardware.

 

[Macalicious2011]

Because Windows sucks.

It's why the SteamDeck (runs Linux) is wrecking other handheld gaming devices that run Windows despite having superior hardware.

Any time I hear windows and handheld devices in the same sentences I think ew ew. It didn't work with PDA, smartphones or tablets. Windows would not be successful on a handheld gaming device.

 

[diamond.g]

Because Windows sucks.

It's why the SteamDeck (runs Linux) is wrecking other handheld gaming devices that run Windows despite having superior hardware.

So if Windows sucks how can having the XboxOS on a handheld be better, since it is Windows?

 

[Zest28]

So if Windows sucks how can having the XboxOS on a handheld be better, since it is Windows?

I will post what you said.

"Why make a separate OS when they already have Windows?"

And the answer to that is that Windows sucks.

If the Xbox Series X was running Windows 11, the gaming performance would be worse.

And what handheld Xbox is there?

 

[Macalicious2011]

I hope Phil makes an announcement soon to give users and developers clarity. At this point, some Xbox fans might even be better off selling their console to buy a PS5. 🧐

I wont because quick resume is vital to the way that I play.

 

[diamond.g]

I will post what you said.

"Why make a separate OS when they already have Windows?"

And the answer to that is that Windows sucks.

If the Xbox Series X was running Windows 11, the gaming performance would be worse.

And what handheld Xbox is there?

Xbox has always ran a modified Windows OS. I thought that was common knowledge.

Using EU DMA as a guide, there is no reason for MS to make a specific gaming OS like Valve did with SteamOS. They could just use "Standard" Windows with the Xbox App as the main overlay.

MS shouldn't make a handheld, though folks thought for sure the ASUS ROG Ally was going to be more heavily Xbox branded than it was(is). MS getting out of the hardware game (and just providing Windows) would allow them to keep buying developers and publishers because they would be allowing alternate stores by virtue of it being Windows.

 

[Zest28]

Xbox has always ran a modified Windows OS. I thought that was common knowledge.

Using EU DMA as a guide, there is no reason for MS to make a specific gaming OS like Valve did with SteamOS. They could just use "Standard" Windows with the Xbox App as the main overlay.

MS shouldn't make a handheld, though folks thought for sure the ASUS ROG Ally was going to be more heavily Xbox branded than it was(is). MS getting out of the hardware game (and just providing Windows) would allow them to keep buying developers and publishers because they would be allowing alternate stores by virtue of it being Windows.

The OS the Xbox Series X is a special gaming version.

And putting Windows 11 on it is a bad idea as it is a terrible OS.

Just look how Linux devices with less power beat PC devices with more powerful hardware. Windows sucks.

 

[Pezimak]

I hope Phil makes an announcement soon to give users and developers clarity. At this point, some Xbox fans might even be better off selling their console to buy a PS5. 🧐

I wont because quick resume is vital to the way that I play.

I did that when they introduced the rows of mandatory ads on the home dashboard. But I admit I do miss quick resume, hell of a feature.

 

[Pezimak]

So if Windows sucks how can having the XboxOS on a handheld be better, since it is Windows?

It isn’t the same, it only uses parts of the Windows API, if you watch the documentary on Xbox the team were very deliberate in choosing what bits of Windows they wanted, it is incredibly stripped down, probably barely recognisable as Windows underneath.

 

[Macalicious2011]

I did that when they introduced the rows of mandatory ads on the home dashboard. But I admit I do miss quick resume, hell of a feature.

I have two kids and being able to play rpg games in bursts of 20-30min regardless of whether there is manually save or not is super handy. On PC games don’t have manual saves or checkpoint saves which makes me think twice about playing unless I will know that I have 60-90 to spare for completing a mission of unknow length.

 

[mattspace]

having re-read that article, literally the only things that come out of it are:

• Growth has slowed, because everyone who will play games, does.
• Games were too ambitious in terms of how much we had to spend on marketing budgets.
• "Console Exclusive" is a dead end, everything comes to every device eventually.
• People want to play their Xbox games in places that are not in front of a TV, so we have to think of Xbox being more than a console.

I fail to see where that becomes "Microsoft will discontinue Xbox console hardware", except in the pants-on-head ravings of the "I get my self-esteem from having games PS5 users can't have" commenters for the article.

 

[Macalicious2011]

I fail to see where that becomes "Microsoft will discontinue Xbox console hardware", except in the pants-on-head ravings of the "I get my self-esteem from having games PS5 users can't have" commenters for the article.

Xbox haven’t yet said that they will discontinue hardware. However the acquisition of Activision Blizzard is triggering deep reflections.

From data on the web, in 2022 AB and Xbox had roughly the same turnover at $7b. 43% of AB revenue is generated from mobile devices. The question that MS is probably pondering is which will make more money:

Old model: Own hardware + exclusives

New model: No hardwares + cloud + games for other consoles + mobile games

Bear in mind that hardware have front loaded R&D, supply chain and distribution costs. To me it sounds like they haven’t made a decision on a next gen console and are pondering whether or not it will be worthwhile developing one. This is off course all speculation on my part.

 

[mattspace]

Xbox haven’t yet said that they will discontinue hardware. However the acquisition of Activision Blizzard is triggering deep reflections.

From data on the web, in 2022 AB and Xbox had roughly the same turnover at $7b. 43% of AB revenue is generated from mobile devices. The question that MS is probably pondering is which will make more money:

Old model: Own hardware + exclusives

New model: No hardwares + cloud + games for other consoles + mobile games

Bear in mind that hardware have front loaded R&D, supply chain and distribution costs. To me it sounds like they haven’t made a decision on a next gen console and are pondering whether or not it will be worthwhile developing one. This is off course all speculation on my part.

Right, but instead of owning only half of AB + Xbox as businesses, they now own both of them, and this now somehow means those businesses are less capable going forward?

PS5 folks are still going to be subsidising the dev costs for the next Xbox by buying COD and every other formerly "exclusive" title, which is another way of looking at things.

The Xbox's existence isn't just about selling consoles for money - it's a critical mass dev and deployment platform, which keeps the price of gaming PCs, and the necessary capabilities gamedevs demand from hardware anchored to a level that's affordable. One's current metric is spend several thousand on a PC, or several hundred on an Xbox, and get the same games and the same stores, but without having to deal with Windows. I actually suspect a big motivator for bringing alternate game stores to Xbox is to eat the low end gaming pc market, rather than retreat from consoles.

It's the same way that Surface provides a reference quality / performance / price for Windows tablets.

Folks need to stop wetting themselves over the "pace of new consoles". 4 years, 8 years, 7 years are the previous generational update cycles, so a Series X successor isn't due to market for another 3-4 years at least.

 

[Macalicious2011]

Right, but instead of owning only half of AB + Xbox as businesses, they now own both of them, and this now somehow means those businesses are less capable going forward?

PS5 folks are still going to be subsidising the dev costs for the next Xbox by buying COD and every other formerly "exclusive" title, which is another way of looking at things.

The Xbox's existence isn't just about selling consoles for money - it's a critical mass dev and deployment platform, which keeps the price of gaming PCs, and the necessary capabilities gamedevs demand from hardware anchored to a level that's affordable. One's current metric is spend several thousand on a PC, or several hundred on an Xbox, and get the same games and the same stores, but without having to deal with Windows. I actually suspect a big motivator for bringing alternate game stores to Xbox is to eat the low end gaming pc market, rather than retreat from consoles.

It's the same way that Surface provides a reference quality / performance / price for Windows tablets.

Folks need to stop wetting themselves over the "pace of new consoles". 4 years, 8 years, 7 years are the previous generational update cycles, so a Series X successor isn't due to market for another 3-4 years at least.

Xbox is a business unit but there are likely profit and loss accounts for hardware vs games. The former needs to be assessed in light of how gaming has drastically changed over the 5 years. It's simple maths. Where do we deploy $1-3b to get the best ROI? hardware, games or partnerships.

Previously, competitive games were played with mouse and keyboard on a PC, today, millions are happily playing COD on mobile devices using touch screens. I don't have access to internal figures at AB but it would be interesting to know what the trend forecast is. e.g are we expecting console gaming to decline whilst mobile gaming rise?

PS5 and Xbox's biggest threat will be COD, Overwatch and Apex Legends comes to the next Nintendo Console. That will be one hell of a console: Handheld, Nintendo catalogue, PS5/Xbox titles and docked mode. There are 10 times more people playing games on the switch and mobile devices than Series X and PS5 which shows that cutting edge hardware isn't deal breaking for the average consumer. It's no secret that MS bought activation because they want access to mobile gamers.

That begs the question, will console gaming as we knew it 10 years ago, grow or will it decline? Gaming studious also need to be considered as some are unwilling to develop and maintain a title for platform(xbox) with a stagnant user base.

I've got a XSX, gaming PC, switch and iPhone. I play the first two on the screen but have to admit that I playing COD on my M1 iPad with xbox controller. The convenience of playing anywhere in less than 1min outweigh the graphical advantages of my console and PC.

If the next Nintendo consoles have graphics that match my iPad or a PS4 then I'll likely buy it to replace my switch and XBX.

 

[diamond.g]

The Xbox's existence isn't just about selling consoles for money - it's a critical mass dev and deployment platform, which keeps the price of gaming PCs, and the necessary capabilities gamedevs demand from hardware anchored to a level that's affordable. One's current metric is spend several thousand on a PC, or several hundred on an Xbox, and get the same games and the same stores, but without having to deal with Windows. I actually suspect a big motivator for bringing alternate game stores to Xbox is to eat the low end gaming pc market, rather than retreat fr

My argument was/is instead of making the XboxOS open they would/should just put (regular) Windows on gaming hardware because it is already open. Getting out of the hardware business (for gaming) makes sense because the hardware will become much more expensive if they are not able to continue using the razor blade model. At that point can the Series X (or it successor) be sold for $800? They for sure don't want to sell it at a loss. It has been 4 years and notice we haven't gotten the price drops we used to get with console hardware (IIRC the PS5 went up in price).

 

[Macalicious2011]

My argument was/is instead of making the XboxOS open they would/should just put (regular) Windows on gaming hardware because it is already open. Getting out of the hardware business (for gaming) makes sense because the hardware will become much more expensive if they are not able to continue using the razor blade model. At that point can the Series X (or it successor) be sold for $800? They for sure don't want to sell it at a loss. It has been 4 years and notice we haven't gotten the price drops we used to get with console hardware (IIRC the PS5 went up in price).

I think that instead of discounting the console, they have invested in Gamepass trials and discounted games. It's mind boggling that you can buy almost any Xbox games at 30-50% discount 12 months after launch. This has spoiled me as PC games aren't discounted as heavily.

What will be a major win and game changing for MS is if Apple's is forced to allow super app and alternative app stores on iPhones globally. This would pave the way for XboxOS store on iOS devices and win millions of users overnight.

 

[diamond.g]

I think that instead of discounting the console, they have invested in Gamepass trials and discounted games. It's mind boggling that you can buy almost any Xbox games at 30-50% discount 12 months after launch. This has spoiled me as PC games aren't discounted as heavily.

What will be a major win and game changing for MS is if Apple's is forced to allow super app and alternative app stores on iPhones globally. This would pave the way for XboxOS store on iOS devices and win millions of users overnight.

Wouldn't that just be Gamepass streaming?

 

[Pezimak]

Right, but instead of owning only half of AB + Xbox as businesses, they now own both of them, and this now somehow means those businesses are less capable going forward?

PS5 folks are still going to be subsidising the dev costs for the next Xbox by buying COD and every other formerly "exclusive" title, which is another way of looking at things.

The Xbox's existence isn't just about selling consoles for money - it's a critical mass dev and deployment platform, which keeps the price of gaming PCs, and the necessary capabilities gamedevs demand from hardware anchored to a level that's affordable. One's current metric is spend several thousand on a PC, or several hundred on an Xbox, and get the same games and the same stores, but without having to deal with Windows. I actually suspect a big motivator for bringing alternate game stores to Xbox is to eat the low end gaming pc market, rather than retreat from consoles.

It's the same way that Surface provides a reference quality / performance / price for Windows tablets.

Folks need to stop wetting themselves over the "pace of new consoles". 4 years, 8 years, 7 years are the previous generational update cycles, so a Series X successor isn't due to market for another 3-4 years at least.

You do not need to spend several thousand on a gaming PC that's a false assumption, and the gaming PC market is always a lot bigger than people think. Look at Apple and its gaming ambitions with its M class chips, now consider the fact those chips are in every single Mac sold, and have been for a while now. Now whilst those are expensive, PV's do not need to cost several thousand to run a game as I said.
But the mobile market is the biggest games market by far, we have seen several times now someone launch a 'free' mobile game and turnover billions in revenue from its in app purchasing and ads, these are of course the most popular ones but it does happen.

It is a mixed bag on when next gen consoles will launch, it is said Xbox will launch before PlayStation maybe in 2026. Things highly possible as the Xbox Series sales are flat and dropping, they've lost 47% in sales in Europe. That's huge. And their are now rumours devs are considering weather or not to support the platform, look at the WiiU to see what happens when no one buys your console.
Xbox hardware is there, it is capable and has features, Game Pass is good, but it is clear it isn't a console sales driver in all regions and the Xbox idea of having your games on everything is impacting sales, and some of the game quality is lacking too, Starfield seems a marmite title, and it isn't as popular as they thought it would be I don't think.

Phil has also stated how he would like all gaming platforms to be in Xbox console, so PS games and it's store and Steam too, mans living in fantasy land to believe that will ever happen with console sales flatlining, your comment in the games platforms in console misses that key fact.

IMO Microsoft are going to try and subsidise their console market, and its games whilst trying to pay for profits and growth in the mobile sector, they wanted King really in that deal, they bought a fast access to the biggest games market on the planet. But weather the Xbox console survives or not? No idea, I don't think so, I guess if the best gen one does rely on the cloud for processing power as stated in the leaked AB case docs then it points towards where Xbox is heading.

 

[Macalicious2011]

Wouldn't that just be Gamepass streaming?

Because mobile devices have limited storage, streaming will be option for some titles. However others need to run natively.

But the mobile market is the biggest games market by far, we have seen several times now someone launch a 'free' mobile game and turnover billions in revenue from its in app purchasing and ads, these are of course the most popular ones but it does happen.

Yup. Free to play games have flipped gaming on its head. The revenue of CandyCrush and Genshin impact is outright startling.

It is a mixed bag on when next gen consoles will launch, it is said Xbox will launch before PlayStation maybe in 2026.

My gripe with consoles is that the graphics are not easily scalable. If a new console launch in 2026, it will take another 2-3 years before studios release next-gen updates or titles coded from the ground up for the new hardware/software.

For the past 20 years, the marketing of a new console has centred around exclusives. If Xbox won't have exclusives then how do you convince customers to buy it? Why buy an Xbox if an equivalent Playstation will have the same games catalogue + Sony Exclusives?

The price of gaming PCs is also falling and in 24 months you will be able to buy a PS5/XSX equivalent PC for the same money.

 

[diamond.g]

Because mobile devices have limited storage, streaming will be option for some titles. However others need to run natively.

Yup. Free to play games have flipped gaming on its head. The revenue of CandyCrush and Genshin impact is outright startling.


My gripe with consoles is that the graphics are not easily scalable. If a new console launch in 2026, it will take another 2-3 years before studios release next-gen updates or titles coded from the ground up for the new hardware/software.

For the past 20 years, the marketing of a new console has centred around exclusives. If Xbox won't have exclusives then how do you convince customers to buy it? Why buy an Xbox if an equivalent Playstation will have the same games catalogue + Sony Exclusives?

The price of gaming PCs is also falling and in 24 months you will be able to buy a PS5/XSX equivalent PC for the same money.

Aside from Minecraft, Microsoft has had a poor track record supporting mobile (phone) gaming. And even with Minecraft there are no mobile versions of the last 2 games (Dungeons and Legends).

With Activision under their belt they have gained access to Candy Crush, Diablo Immortal, CoD:Mobile/WZ (and whatever else there is). I'm just not sure they will put a bunch of effort into new native mobile games, and instead rely on game streaming.



I feel really pessimistic about MS involvement in the console industry. They have been floundering since the X360 and it is really sad to see.

 

[Macalicious2011]

Aside from Minecraft, Microsoft has had a poor track record supporting mobile (phone) gaming. And even with Minecraft there are no mobile versions of the last 2 games (Dungeons and Legends).

With Activision under their belt they have gained access to Candy Crush, Diablo Immortal, CoD:Mobile/WZ (and whatever else there is). I'm just not sure they will put a bunch of effort into new native mobile games, and instead rely on game streaming.


I feel really pessimistic about MS involvement in the console industry. They have been floundering since the X360 and it is really sad to see.

Do you feel that they will fumble their the purchase of AB? I recently watched a cloud streaming comparison between xbox and playstation. To my surprise, the latter won the comparison.

 

[diamond.g]

Do you feel that they will fumble their the purchase of AB? I recently watched a cloud streaming comparison between xbox and playstation. To my surprise, the latter won the comparison.

Based on the quality of games that have come out from Zenimax since their purchase, that thought has crossed my mind.

 

[Macalicious2011]

Based on the quality of games that have come out from Zenimax since their purchase, that thought has crossed my mind.

Unfortunately covid era of spending a gazzilion hours indoors are over.

Gaming, cinema, attending sports games, movies, shopping on temu and streaming all compete for the same eye balls.

Attention is a zero sum game.

MS might have bought AB at their peak. I think the strategy to growing revenue include selling xbox exclusives on other platforms and bringing more titles to mobile.

The biggest challenge will be creating new IP that is fun and that people love to play. Halo and Starfield are not it.