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For most people, the phone itself is the only significant cost. Around 95% of app installs are free apps, and the bulk of paid apps/services are cross-platform subscriptions. The average user isn’t sitting on dozens of “pay $9.99 once and download-for-life” exclusives; that’s more of a tech-enthusiast thing. I understand MacRumors is a tech-enthusiast forum, but we’re not the average user.
You are significantly downplaying the cost of apps that many people have bought. And then you have watches, cars, exercise equipment (you know, big things that can cost thousands of dollars). Not to mention the time cost of moving to an entirely different ecosystem (I know, some people's time is not really worth anything dollar-wise, so I'll give you that).

And then of course there are all the other reasons completely unrelated to the locked-down nature of iOS that many people may have had to buy an iPhone in the first place. But of course, none of those advantages are worth anything to anyone, so there is no actual "cost" involved in switching, right?

And this isn’t unique to Apple; the exact same dynamic exists for any platform switch. Epic is on Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo’s platforms too, but Epic isn’t demanding they open up.
Well, firstly we've already beaten to death the difference between purpose-built gaming platforms and general computing platforms, so again, I have to wonder which of the three you're being here. And secondly, it is entirely possible to hate anticompetitive, anticonsumer corporate behaviour from multiple corporations at once. I don't recall ever claiming to be okay with Epic, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, or any other corporation leveraging their platform to lock customers into their store and extract rents from developers. Just because one finds Apple's behavior with regard to their App store policies particularly egregious doesn't mean they automatically give a pass to everyone else.
 
Well, firstly we've already beaten to death the difference between purpose-built gaming platforms and general computing platforms, so again, I have to wonder which of the three you're being here.
I feel this is an artificial distinction made so that people can bash Apple freely without having to deal with the inconvenient truth that walled ecosystems are a viable means of making money (and maybe the only viable means of doing so).

Take Steam for example. From an outsider looking in, there is really no business case to be made for a company to sell gaming handhelds that utilise someone else's OS (like say the ROG Ally). Given the stiff competition, profits can't be that fantastic, you are just helping to promote someone else's wares, and more importantly, they don't get a cut of games sold through the Steam App Store.

It's the same argument to be made with android smartphones. We see a massive race to the bottom, with every OEM undercutting one another because there's really so few ways you can differentiate your product offering from the competition. The only winner is Google, who makes money from app sales, and from getting their services on as many devices as possible where they can harvest users' data and sell them ads.

Same with Nintendo. They use propriety IP to get customers to buy the Switch (because you can only legitimately access their games via their hardware). These people will in turn go on to purchase more games via the Switch App Store, where Sony keeps 30%. This is why Nintendo can be so profitable despite the Switch not having the majority share of the gaming market (not at all unlike Apple's business model).

I can also argue that hardware-wise, there isn't any difference between an iPad and a Nintendo Switch, or even the PS5. The only distinction is that Sony and Nintendo limit what apps are available on their platform (is there a reason why we don't see a word processor app being made available on the Switch, or why it doesn't support keyboard and mouse input)? At the end of the day, they are all computers. They have screens, ram, a processor, a GPU, if they can run Doom Eternal, they can run MS Word or an email client.

So if anything, shouldn't Sony and Nintendo be receiving even greater pushback than Apple for choosing to lock down their hardware to an even greater extent than Apple? And consoles aren't cheap these days, so you can't exactly argue "Oh, the switch is sold at a loss, so Nintendo deserves to recoup their earnings via app sales but not Apple".

I don't recall ever claiming to be okay with Epic, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, or any other corporation leveraging their platform to lock customers into their store and extract rents from developers.
Nobody here has expressly come out and said that they have an issue with it either. If anything, you all keep parroting the "iOS is a general computing platform while the Switch isn't" argument precisely to not have to deal with the parallels in the first place.

The implication is that everyone here has no issues with Sony and Nintendo taking 30% of developer earnings, while also being able to control what games are allowed to be sold (I don't believe there is zero curation in their app stores), but you all cry murder at Apple monetising their IP in the exact same manner. I am sure you all see the absurdity of forcing Nintendo to allow the Epic game store on the Switch where they can undercut Nintendo (because they don't have to fund the R&D costs of developing the Switch console), but to allow the same Epic game store on the iPhone and iPad is apparently one's god-given right apparently.

If you are in support of violating Apple's property rights and remain of the opinion that Apple should just give away their R&D for free and not be allowed to monetise their own intellectual property, then just come out and be honest (and consistent) about it, because that's what you are all advocating for here.
 
You are significantly downplaying the cost of apps that many people have bought. And then you have watches, cars, exercise equipment (you know, big things that can cost thousands of dollars). Not to mention the time cost of moving to an entirely different ecosystem (I know, some people's time is not really worth anything dollar-wise, so I'll give you that).
I’ll give you the Apple Watch (although I’d argue the phone is still the “significant cost” compared to the watch), but could you please list which cars and exercise equipment are iOS exclusive?

And then of course there are all the other reasons completely unrelated to the locked-down nature of iOS that many people may have had to buy an iPhone in the first place. But of course, none of those advantages are worth anything to anyone, so there is no actual "cost" involved in switching, right?
I’m not saying there’s zero switching friction; I am saying that apps themselves aren’t the big sunk cost they’re constantly made out to be on MacRumors.

If you switch from PlayStation to Nintendo, you can’t bring your controller, VR headset or game library either. The real lock-in is ecosystem preference, not hundreds or thousands of dollars in iOS-only apps, which most people simply don’t have.

Your issue is you prefer iOS and want an open ecosystem. That’s a completely valid preference. But you’re not entitled to have Apple make the exact product you want. If you don’t like Apple’s choices, don’t continue to reward them by buying their products.

Well, firstly we've already beaten to death the difference between purpose-built gaming platforms and general computing platforms, so again, I have to wonder which of the three you're being here. And secondly, it is entirely possible to hate anticompetitive, anticonsumer corporate behaviour from multiple corporations at once.
@Abazigal already hit this one out of the park, but I’d just echo his point that walled ecosystems aren’t unique to Apple. They’re the norm across consumer tech, and usually enforced even harder by Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft. Yet somehow only Apple gets endless grief for it.

And unlike consoles, most of the apps people buy on iOS are free or cross-platform anyway, so the idea that users are locked in because they’d lose hundreds or thousands of dollars in apps is wildly overstated.

I’d add that it’s entirely possible that people can have a different opinion than you do without being “dishonest, disingenuous, or stupid”.

I don't recall ever claiming to be okay with Epic, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, or any other corporation leveraging their platform to lock customers into their store and extract rents from developers. Just because one finds Apple's behavior with regard to their App store policies particularly egregious doesn't mean they automatically give a pass to everyone else.

Every platform takes a cut and ties its services to its own ecosystem, that’s how the model works (and how it should work!). They’re providing developers valuable service, IP, and access to customers and should be compensated for that. If developers don’t think it’s worth it, then don’t develop for Apple - no one is forcing them to.

Apple isn’t doing anything “particularly egregious”; Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft do the same (often more aggressively) with consoles. You claim the difference is “iPhones are multipurpose devices.” But in fact, most iOS apps are free or cross-platform anyway, so the ‘sunk cost’ of switching is tiny.

If you think Apple’s approach is unfair, you should be twice as mad at the consoles.
 
What I don’t understand about Epic’s approach is why they aren’t challenging Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo over their online game stores. Don’t those platforms also take a cut of third-party game sales, just like Apple does?
They’re looking to get a precedent and they’re going to keep on pushing it until they find a judge that will give them what they want. Once they have that, they’re coming after the others. I’m sure there’s nothing they’d like more than to have access to Steam’s millions of users without having to pay Valve a cent.
 
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oh well..any expense stifles startups too. That's life..
Yeah, I’d never invest in a company that has to pay a housing tax, a power tax or a property tax… all the money spent on rent/mortgage prevents them from hiring more people. Oh wait, those people come with their own taxes plus they’re a people tax. Hm, better cut them out, too.
 
And yet devs make more money on iOS.
They absolutely do. But, then again, no one told them to become a mobile app developer they made that choice on their own. Now, if they don’t like how the mobile app developer business works, well, there’s lots of other ways to make money out there that also don’t require any engagement with Apple at all. And if they want to stay in development, they can even develop for Windows PC’s.

But, if they use any of the tools that make development easier… yeah, those are going to cost something, too. Now that I think about it, I know very few ways of making money that don’t require some kind of up front and/or continuous investment. So, for anyone looking for “Money coming to me completely on my terms”, mobile software development specifically for the iPhone isn’t that.
 
I feel this is an artificial distinction made so that people can bash Apple freely without having to deal with the inconvenient truth that walled ecosystems are a viable means of making money (and maybe the only viable means of doing so).
Yeah, there’s no legal distinction. The only distinction is in the minds of those that want very much for there to be a difference, but none of the legal arguments put forth by any of the legal professionals include any special call out for “gaming consoles”. If the Nintendo Switch were to cross the threshold for monthly home and business users, the DMA says they’d be a gatekeeper and subject to the same regulations as Apple.

And, if a precedent is set that hardware makers MUST allow alternate stores on their platforms, Sony, as a hardware maker would have to allow alternate stores on their platform.
 
They absolutely do. But, then again, no one told them to become a mobile app developer they made that choice on their own. Now, if they don’t like how the mobile app developer business works, well, there’s lots of other ways to make money out there that also don’t require any engagement with Apple at all. And if they want to stay in development, they can even develop for Windows PC’s.

But, if they use any of the tools that make development easier… yeah, those are going to cost something, too. Now that I think about it, I know very few ways of making money that don’t require some kind of up front and/or continuous investment. So, for anyone looking for “Money coming to me completely on my terms”, mobile software development specifically for the iPhone isn’t that.
Yeah it's annoying it costs money for software and tools needed for my profession. It really should be provided to me for free. lol

Apple's app store isn't possible without apple having invested their own money to create and maintain it and provide the means to do so for devs. My only issue would be it shouldn't be a few devs bearing the cost. Others get around apple's 30 percent thing. But hey not my problem. The devs knew going in what the deal is.
 
Their "Hacker News" forums are sometimes the source of interesting viewpoints, but I rarely get over there these days - Reddit is much more capable.

The issue I have is how many topics of interest to me get "flagged" there.

It's turned into a fairly biased place masquerading as "interesting viewpoints".

I notice this a lot as I first see the topics in my RSS reader and it's amazing how often the ones I want to read more on are "flagged" when I open the link up in a browser.
 
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I find it ridiculous when these people bring up "multipurpose vs single purpose" devices when:
1. who came up with this different standard for multipurpose devices? they did!
2. I can listen to music, stream movies, stream tv shows, blu-ray player, browse the web, play games, chat, live stream myself, edit videos, etc.... on my playstation. is that a multipurpose device? absolutely.
 
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Apple could offer the app store for free, charge zero fees, and still make a healthy profit.
what??? how would they make a healthy profit when they are giving away literally the store?
Drop the communism bit, it's not useful and not helpful to start bringing in ideas that have zero relevancy to the company, or economy, we are discussing.
How does it not? You want a company to give away a product or service for free. When by definition, companies have to make a profit.
It's a strawman meant to dismiss and shutdown someone and their ideas.
HOW?
There is profit, and then there is business ethics. Both can exist at the same time. I don't think 30% is ethical.
This just proves everything else I said was correct. As you indicated by saying business ethics. And yes, both can exist at the same time. But, every business has to make a profit. They can do so ethically too. 30% isn't ethical is not a fact however. We are here only 15-20 years AFTER that rule has been in affect. And businesses have thrived in that span.
 
what??? how would they make a healthy profit when they are giving away literally the store?

How does it not? You want a company to give away a product or service for free. When by definition, companies have to make a profit.

HOW?

Here is how: ~25% of Apple's profit comes from the App Store. That leaves them with 75% of their current profit without the App Store...so, with ZERO App Store revenue, they would have made $70.28 Billion in profit in FY2024.

I'm not saying they should give everything away, but I don't think they should be the gatekeepers of what I do or install on my devices.
 
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Here is how: ~25% of Apple's profit comes from the App Store. That leaves them with 75% of their current profit without the App Store...so, with ZERO App Store revenue, they would have made $70.28 Billion in profit in FY2024.
And I suspect Epic, the EU, and the like would scream Apple is illegally subsidizing its App Store to prevent other App Stores from gaining a foothold. Because the actual issue isn't prices, it's that they are philosophically opposed to closed ecosystems and don't think they should be allowed even if a subset of consumers want them.

I'm not saying they should give everything away, but I don't think they should be the gatekeepers of what I do or install on my devices.
Exactly. As I said, philosophically opposed to closed ecosystems. Which is perfectly reasonable! Just wish you wouldn't try to force your opinion on the rest of us.
 
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Here is how: ~25% of Apple's profit comes from the App Store. That leaves them with 75% of their current profit without the App Store...so, with ZERO App Store revenue, they would have made $70.28 Billion in profit in FY2024.
By "your" definition. That's not how businesses are valued by the world. That would be a 25% LOSS YOY (year over year). And Apple's stock price would SINK.
I'm not saying they should give everything away, but I don't think they should be the gatekeepers of what I do or install on my devices.
Then don't buy their devices. Which is exactly how you would get them to change their behavior. If Apple sold less, they would have to adapt to what the market demanded. OR they fail. They don't fail or adapt if you or anyone else continues to purchase the product they make and complain on a forum that it's not perfect to your needs.

Certainly feedback is welcome. But, if not enough people are reporting to them what you and others want them to do. They will not do it. As it doesn't make dollars for them to do it. If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense.
 
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By "your" definition. That's not how businesses are valued by the world. That would be a 25% LOSS YOY (year over year). And Apple's stock price would SINK.

Then don't buy their devices. Which is exactly how you would get them to change their behavior. If Apple sold less, they would have to adapt to what the market demanded. OR they fail. They don't fail or adapt if you or anyone else continues to purchase the product they make and complain on a forum that it's not perfect to your needs.

Certainly feedback is welcome. But, if not enough people are reporting to them what you and others want them to do. They will not do it. As it doesn't make dollars for them to do it. If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense.

I do leave feedback saying it at least every six months. I'm aware that they pay little attention to it, but I still leave it.
 
I feel this is an artificial distinction made so that people can bash Apple freely without having to deal with the inconvenient truth that walled ecosystems are a viable means of making money (and maybe the only viable means of doing so).

Take Steam for example. From an outsider looking in, there is really no business case to be made for a company to sell gaming handhelds that utilise someone else's OS (like say the ROG Ally). Given the stiff competition, profits can't be that fantastic, you are just helping to promote someone else's wares, and more importantly, they don't get a cut of games sold through the Steam App Store.

It's the same argument to be made with android smartphones. We see a massive race to the bottom, with every OEM undercutting one another because there's really so few ways you can differentiate your product offering from the competition. The only winner is Google, who makes money from app sales, and from getting their services on as many devices as possible where they can harvest users' data and sell them ads.

Same with Nintendo. They use propriety IP to get customers to buy the Switch (because you can only legitimately access their games via their hardware). These people will in turn go on to purchase more games via the Switch App Store, where Sony keeps 30%. This is why Nintendo can be so profitable despite the Switch not having the majority share of the gaming market (not at all unlike Apple's business model).

I can also argue that hardware-wise, there isn't any difference between an iPad and a Nintendo Switch, or even the PS5. The only distinction is that Sony and Nintendo limit what apps are available on their platform (is there a reason why we don't see a word processor app being made available on the Switch, or why it doesn't support keyboard and mouse input)? At the end of the day, they are all computers. They have screens, ram, a processor, a GPU, if they can run Doom Eternal, they can run MS Word or an email client.

So if anything, shouldn't Sony and Nintendo be receiving even greater pushback than Apple for choosing to lock down their hardware to an even greater extent than Apple? And consoles aren't cheap these days, so you can't exactly argue "Oh, the switch is sold at a loss, so Nintendo deserves to recoup their earnings via app sales but not Apple".


Nobody here has expressly come out and said that they have an issue with it either. If anything, you all keep parroting the "iOS is a general computing platform while the Switch isn't" argument precisely to not have to deal with the parallels in the first place.

The implication is that everyone here has no issues with Sony and Nintendo taking 30% of developer earnings, while also being able to control what games are allowed to be sold (I don't believe there is zero curation in their app stores), but you all cry murder at Apple monetising their IP in the exact same manner. I am sure you all see the absurdity of forcing Nintendo to allow the Epic game store on the Switch where they can undercut Nintendo (because they don't have to fund the R&D costs of developing the Switch console), but to allow the same Epic game store on the iPhone and iPad is apparently one's god-given right apparently.

If you are in support of violating Apple's property rights and remain of the opinion that Apple should just give away their R&D for free and not be allowed to monetise their own intellectual property, then just come out and be honest (and consistent) about it, because that's what you are all advocating for here.
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