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defjam

macrumors 6502a
Sep 15, 2019
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That's a qualitative matter and not the discussion - back to my point, the G5 being unable to show Youtube in TFF was simply because the prefs hadn't been set. Seeing as the author was seeking to inform he came to the wrong conclusion because he hadn't investigated the software enough.
I guess it depends on how you define "show". My G5 stutters when watching his YouTube at a resolution of 240p, even with MSE enabled (along with Eric's custom TFF file). So I guess technically it's showing YouTube content but I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to use one of these systems to do it.

IMO because of this he's not spreading misinformation. I know mine is not a popular position in a PPC forum but we're likely not the target for his videos.
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Pedantic? @RogerWilco6502 merely pointed out why descriptions such as "unusable" fall into the category of misinformation.
Yes, pedantic.

I showed someone my G3/500 accessing the web with TFF and they were actually impressed with the performance given the age and spec of the machine. With the browser tweaks provided by @z970mp and @eyoungren, surfing with a PPC machine whilst not without issues, is far from a horrible experience. :)
I just went through this last weekend. IME a PPC is unusable on the modern internet. Using TFF is painfully slow (even with Eric's tweaks). LWK was much, much better. Unfortunately it crashes so much that despite its performance it was intolerable, at least for me. People on this forum are willing to tolerate these issues. However I doubt the target market for the video in the OP is not. Thus my comment to the effect of task and willingness to work within limitations.

I think I need to go watch the video, at least the first one, to know exactly what he's claiming. Difficult to "defend" it if I haven't seen it.
 
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1042686

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Huh, That’s interesting actually. If the YouTuber missed that setting in TFF, I think your average user certainly would too - and that in a nutshell speaks to a big part of the first Youtuber’s point- that a PPC is not really suitable for your average user who is looking for software to just work & to work quickly.

PPC works for us because we choose to tinker with them, understand & work around their limitations. This forum is a perfect example of that dedication to tinker & extend our PPC’s usefulness way beyond what Apple thinks. Conversely the rest of the forum speaks to the opposite - those ppl who just need & want their shizzle to work.

I do agree that the video name is inaccurate as it would imply everyone but it’s YT and that guy wants views so I get the ”why” behind the verbiage.
 

defjam

macrumors 6502a
Sep 15, 2019
795
735
Not in the case of the video linked but the same channel recently demonstrated that TFF can't play Youtube (the guy hadn't enabled MSE playback in preferences) - so through lack of research, I'd say that's misinformation. Not a hanging offence obviously but I think it's worthwhile to point such things out so people out there have the correct information.
Do you have a link to this demonstration?
 

Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Original poster
Jun 17, 2014
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Lincolnshire, UK
guess it depends on how you define "show".

I think you misunderstand me - in the video TFF showed the standard "can't play html5 video" type error - not a poor playback scenario - that was my only point, he's a tech guy and does a lot of PPC videos.
I don't understand this notion of the videos are for average users so there's no need to be accurate - I've had personal experience of non-techy, average users thanking me for advice of getting use out of PPCs where others have said, "no, can't do that - buy a new Mac."
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Do you have a link to this demonstration?

 

defjam

macrumors 6502a
Sep 15, 2019
795
735
I think you misunderstand me - in the video TFF showed the standard "can't play html5 video" type error - not a poor playback scenario - that was my only point, he's a tech guy and does a lot of PPC videos.
I don't understand this notion of the videos are for average users so there's no need to be accurate - I've had personal experience of non-techy, average users thanking me for advice of getting use out of PPCs where others have said, "no, can't do that - buy a new Mac."
I "misunderstood" because that's not what you communicated. With this additional information I see what your objection is.

While I understand people here are PPC enthusiasts and want to keep these systems working for as long as they can I'm not sure you're being helpful to average users you've advised. I, like the YouTuber does in the first video of your OP, feel that the average user would be better off with an older Intel Mac. The YouTuber in the first video you referenced made qualifying statements such as "reasonable experience" and "smooth Internet" experience. I can't disagree with him about that. The difference between my PowerMac G5 and 2010 Mac Pro is like night and day. The latter is quite useable, the former is an exercise in patience.
 

z970

macrumors 68040
Jun 2, 2017
3,580
4,502
My G5 stutters when watching his YouTube at a resolution of 240p, even with MSE enabled (along with Eric's custom TFF file).

What type of G5 did you say you had? 240p stuttering is not what I would call normal behavior for most G5-based machines, even when under TenFourFox.

Erik's TFF tweaks do not contain any media accelerating preferences, last I checked. After installing the TFF MP4 enabler, I suggest either changing media.webm.enabled to false, or to take foxPEP out for a little test drive. You may see a difference.

Navigating Web 3.0 with a 15 year old computer in a stock software configuration is comparable to, to paraphrase @wicknix, visiting the Arctic and expecting your skin to keep you warm. They are perfectly capable platforms; they just need a little augmentation to perform to their fullest. And personally, I think that makes a lot of sense in practice.
 

Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Original poster
Jun 17, 2014
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Lincolnshire, UK
I "misunderstood" because that's not what you communicated. With this additional information I see what your objection is.

While I understand people here are PPC enthusiasts and want to keep these systems working for as long as they can I'm not sure you're being helpful to average users you've advised.

I communicated accurately - you chose to misinterpret it.

The user in question had an iBook and wanted to let her son use it to play course work video tutorials - buying another computer was totally out of the question. She was unable to do this and online line advice varied from scorn to "it's impossible" - I pointed her in the right direction and she and her son were happy to have a repurposed iBook playing the videos without issue.
 

defjam

macrumors 6502a
Sep 15, 2019
795
735
What type of G5 did you say you had? 240p stuttering is not what I would call normal behavior for most G5-based machines, even when under TenFourFox.
The one I test on is the 1.8GHz PCI version:


Probably the slowest G5 one could own but it's now the only one I own. I used to have a dual 2.3GHz PowerMac G5 and it too had problems smoothly playing YouTube videos in TFF.

Erik's TFF tweaks do not contain any media accelerating preferences, last I checked. After installing the TFF MP4 enabler, I suggest either changing media.webm.enabled to false, or to take foxPEP out for a little test drive. You may see a difference.

Navigating Web 3.0 with a 15 year old computer in a stock software configuration is comparable to, to paraphrase @wicknix, visiting the Arctic and expecting your skin to keep you warm. They are perfectly capable platforms; they just need a little augmentation to perform to their fullest. And personally, I think that makes a lot of sense in practice.
I have no interest in doing any of this since I have many Macs which do not require anything other than starting them up and browsing the web.
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The user in question had an iBook and wanted to let her son use it to play course work video tutorials - buying another computer was totally out of the question. She was unable to do this and online line advice varied from scorn to "it's impossible" - I pointed her in the right direction and she and her son were happy to have a repurposed iBook playing the videos without issue.
I think "without issue" might be an overstatement.

I like PPC systems and I'm disappointed they are no longer useable on the Internet, at least not for the average user. They require too many compromises and cannot offer a reasonable user experience for the average user. I guess if it's your only option then so be it. But the cost of more capable Intel Macs has reached the point where any additional money is well spent.
 
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z970

macrumors 68040
Jun 2, 2017
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Probably the slowest G5 one could own.

That would be the 1.6 iMac.


I have no interest in doing any of this since I have many Macs which do not require anything other than starting them up and browsing the web.

Then why not use them instead? If you want to delegate your G5 to offline work, then that's great, it's probably happiest there anyway.

I don't really see the problem here. If the "average" user has a desire to get more out of their old PowerPC Mac, they will usually ask around and search for ways to do so. Then, they deserve to get the best, most informed answers and assistance to help get them to achieve that goal, not be redirected towards predetermined "better" platforms that offer a superior Web experience - that's just unhelpful and arguably undermining.

On the contrary, if they have no real drive to use their aged Macintosh and instead turn to newer solutions, then that's their decision, and it gets left at that.
 
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defjam

macrumors 6502a
Sep 15, 2019
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735
She was a "non-techy" user, I found her a solution without confusing her with jargon, her iBook did the job she required it to, she was very happy with the results.

Again you are willfully misinterpreting.
There's no misinterpreting and I would ask that you stop attempting to attribute as much. It is my opinion without issue is an overstatement. IMO assisting average users continuing to use PPC systems is not doing them any favors. That's not misinterpreting anything, that's an opinion.
 

Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Original poster
Jun 17, 2014
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Lincolnshire, UK
There's no misinterpreting and I would ask that you stop attempting to attribute as much. It is my opinion without issue is an overstatement. IMO assisting average users continuing to use PPC systems is not doing them any favors. That's not misinterpreting anything, that's an opinion.

How can the iBook doing exactly the task she wanted it to do with no outlay or cost be anything other than "without issue?"
 

defjam

macrumors 6502a
Sep 15, 2019
795
735
How can the iBook doing exactly the task she wanted it to do with no outlay or cost be anything other than "without issue?"
I have no doubt it did that one task without issue. However knowing users as I do, because I support them just as you appear to do, they don't just do one thing.
 

iluvmacs99

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2019
920
671
I have a single core PowerMac G5 1.8Ghz that is based on the iMac G5 motherboard as well as the PowerBook G4 and both can play Youtube videos in TFF @ 240p smoothly once you adjusted the resolution lower than 1080p. It does stutter @ 1080p, but when set to 1152x864 resolution, both no longer stutter and is quite interactive within reasons.

Both of these machines are used as my reference computers for the work I do with the poor and the disadvantaged. I think many of you do not realize the scope of the damage the 2007-2008 Great Financial Collapse (known as the Great Recession) had done to a lot of common folks out there.

I work with many folks that, before the 2007-2008 financial collapse, were middle class working people. A lot of them still own their G5, G4 and even the B/W G3 and their PowerBooks and most of them, at the time, bought them brand new and happily paid the Apple tax, because their financials were better then. They could afford that before 2007. After 2008, most of them were financially decimated to a point that even today, most of them are living below the poverty line and will never see the former glory days of the past. But it is sad to see that the poor are getting much younger! So I'm not surpirsed a lot of people tend to ask if the PowerPC macs can be used today, because machines like iBooks and PowerMac G5 single core are really cheap. They are neither collectable and yet mostly disposable.

Many of these people simply can't afford to even pick up an Intel machine, because that would mean investing in new software they don't have money for, so they make do with what they could work with. Most of the ideas and work arounds that I learned about the PowerPC came from these folks and in this forum. When you're on the bread line; truly beggars can't be choosers and so you have to be very creative.
I had re-purposed PPC machines for that are being used today by these people to get by on the net, because you need to have a computer to get a job and manage your basic banking needs. I intentionally run these old slow PPC machines at home so that I can clone my settings for these people to use effectively. For the most part, they are happy with the PowerPC. I generally will advice people to go Intel or AMD with Ubuntu/Mint 19 if they have better finances, but an old PowerPC with Tiger or Leopard are equally capable if finances are limiting you to get a better computer.

But there are also people out there who want to be with the Joneses and sometimes confuse these PowerPC machines as Intels and buy them without research and this is where the video has some validity.
 

Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Original poster
Jun 17, 2014
5,209
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Lincolnshire, UK
I have no doubt it did that one task without issue. However knowing users as I do, because I support them just as you appear to do, they don't just do one thing.

Totally irrelevant - she asked for help on one specific task and she got that help, trying to justify your argument by suggesting she'd then expect the iBook to do other tasks is clutching at straws.
 

defjam

macrumors 6502a
Sep 15, 2019
795
735
I have a single core PowerMac G5 1.8Ghz that is based on the iMac G5 motherboard as well as the PowerBook G4 and both can play Youtube videos in TFF @ 240p smoothly once you adjusted the resolution lower than 1080p. It does stutter @ 1080p, but when set to 1152x864 resolution, both no longer stutter and is quite interactive within reasons.

Both of these machines are used as my reference computers for the work I do with the poor and the disadvantaged. I think many of you do not realize the scope of the damage the 2007-2008 Great Financial Collapse (known as the Great Recession) had done to a lot of common folks out there.

I work with many folks that, before the 2007-2008 financial collapse, were middle class working people. A lot of them still own their G5, G4 and even the B/W G3 and their PowerBooks and most of them, at the time, bought them brand new and happily paid the Apple tax, because their financials were better then. They could afford that before 2007. After 2008, most of them were financially decimated to a point that even today, most of them are living below the poverty line and will never see the former glory days of the past. But it is sad to see that the poor are getting much younger! So I'm not surpirsed a lot of people tend to ask if the PowerPC macs can be used today, because machines like iBooks and PowerMac G5 single core are really cheap. They are neither collectable and yet mostly disposable.

Many of these people simply can't afford to even pick up an Intel machine, because that would mean investing in new software they don't have money for, so they make do with what they could work with. Most of the ideas and work arounds that I learned about the PowerPC came from these folks and in this forum. When you're on the bread line; truly beggars can't be choosers and so you have to be very creative.
I had re-purposed PPC machines for that are being used today by these people to get by on the net, because you need to have a computer to get a job and manage your basic banking needs. I intentionally run these old slow PPC machines at home so that I can clone my settings for these people to use effectively. For the most part, they are happy with the PowerPC. I generally will advice people to go Intel or AMD with Ubuntu/Mint 19 if they have better finances, but an old PowerPC with Tiger or Leopard are equally capable if finances are limiting you to get a better computer.

But there are also people out there who want to be with the Joneses and sometimes confuse these PowerPC machines as Intels and buy them without research and this is where the video has some validity.
Now the goal posts are shifting from those wanting to purchase a PPC to those who already have them. If a PPC system is all you have and you are unable to afford one of the earlier Intel Macs then you work with what you have. Those are not the people being referenced in the first video of the OP.
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Totally irrelevant - she asked for help on one specific task and she got that help, trying to justify your argument by suggesting she'd then expect the iBook to do other tasks is clutching at straws.
I disagree. Yes, she asked for help on one specific task. I guess if you're goal is to address one specific issue and not look ahead then your solution is acceptable.

However, as someone who has helped countless users with "one specific" task there's always another task. And another. And another. I'd be surprised if she didn't, at some point, want to use that iBook for more than that one task. Instead of helping her with that one task it would be, IMO, better to offer a longer term solution. Earlier Intel Macs, which are much more capable than an iBook, are not that expensive. You might even be able to find one for free (I've given away several). Furthermore if price really is an object then perhaps a PC would be better. Those are even more plentiful and people discard quite capable systems, at least compared to an iBook, all the time.

I can say this because I've done this. I've even given some of these people systems. Why? Because I feel it's better to give them a system that isn't such a hassle to use rather than constantly working on their system.
 
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alex_free

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2020
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Now the goal posts are shifting from those wanting to purchase a PPC to those who already have them. If a PPC system is all you have and you are unable to afford one of the earlier Intel Macs then you work with what you have. Those are not the people being referenced in the first video of the OP.

I gotta say, this isn’t really relevant in current year. MacBook 2006s and iBooks go for similar prices, as do Mac Mini 2009s and 2005s. You buy a PPC because you either didn’t do any research or you did so because you knew what you wanted, a computer from the golden years of Apple.
 

sparty411

macrumors 6502a
Nov 13, 2018
552
499
I gotta say, this isn’t really relevant in current year. MacBook 2006s and iBooks go for similar prices, as do Mac Mini 2009s and 2005s. You buy a PPC because you either didn’t do any research or you did so because you knew what you wanted, a computer from the golden years of Apple.
I fail to see the point in buying an ancient Apple computer as a primary machine. Apple only supports their operating systems for a handful of years, and 3rd party software vendors usually follow suit a year or 2 later. The less fortunate are better off pulling a core 2 shitbox out of the dump, and installing a supported operating system on it. In this day and age, I even find Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, and even Haswell laptops / desktops in the garbage.
 

defjam

macrumors 6502a
Sep 15, 2019
795
735
I gotta say, this isn’t really relevant in current year. MacBook 2006s and iBooks go for similar prices, as do Mac Mini 2009s and 2005s. You buy a PPC because you either didn’t do any research or you did so because you knew what you wanted, a computer from the golden years of Apple.
I agree. That's exactly what the first YouTuber said in the OP. It was his, and is my, opinion there's no reason to accept the performance of a PPC when more capable systems are similarly priced. Exception being is if you have no choice or prefer to do so.
 

Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
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Jun 17, 2014
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I disagree. Yes, she asked for help on one specific task. I guess if you're goal is to address one specific issue and not look ahead then your solution is acceptable.

However, as someone who has helped countless users with "one specific" task there's always another task. And another. And another. I'd be surprised if she didn't, at some point, want to use that iBook for more than that one task. Instead of helping her with that one task it would be, IMO, better to offer a longer term solution. Earlier Intel Macs, which are much more capable than an iBook, are not that expensive. You might even be able to find one for free (I've given away several). Furthermore if price really is an object then perhaps a PC would be better. Those are even more plentiful and people discard quite capable systems, at least compared to an iBook, all the time.

Why would I address any issue other than the one she presented? She was pretty desperate, it was that iBook or nothing, the last thing she wanted was another online 'expert' telling her it's ancient and she needs to buy another machine - and she'd already been very frank about her financial circumstances.

Your point is correct in most circumstances but this wasn't one of those circumstances.
 

bobesch

macrumors 68020
Oct 21, 2015
2,128
2,204
Kiel, Germany
There are different aspects about usability of PPC:

Pro:
1. If you've got one and want to make the best of it to make it cope with temporary tasks - also by using a mobile device for file-exchange between the PPC and the cloud. So the mobile device is the one best suitable to consume modern web and streaming too. FileSharing/(S)FTP, webDAV, VPN, ScreenSharing/VNC, Networking, email, fax also make a PPC still capable for office tasks and network-connection to newer machines and may compensate the devastated cloud- and other support of most providers.
2. To keep or even get a PPC as a special device for special tasks: old software/games, scientific equipment etc.
I've got my first iBook-G4 especially to use it as a beamer-companion 4-5y ago. It has got an mSATA and Leopard/Offic2008/LibreOffice and so it has been still able to cope with all PDF- and Office-files thrown at it. And it is a sturdy and real handsome companion, that takes all bumps and bruises.
3. Being an enthusiast and have fun to tinker with that stuff and make the best of (1) or (2) happen.

Con:
If someone is looking for a (single) device, that is able to fit all needs out of the box and if he/she does not find himself in the Pro1-3 group and if he/she is looking for fast web, streaming, video-editing, 4k-video, support for all cloud-services and video-communication, secure online-banking etc etc ... And if their Zen of Mac is, not to be distracted by the needs of tinkering with stuff ... Then a PPC is not that unique device to go for. It might be/ certainly will be a big disappointment and a frustrating experience.

And I do understand Video #1 that way: to keep people of the Con-group away from buying a PPC-Mac, if they are not aware of and/or do not look for the one-of-a-kind qualities of an old PPC-Mac and if they do not know about the limits.
Especially if such an old device might be overpriced and sold with delusionary promises and hereupon is bought with the wrong expectations.
 

RogerWilco6502

macrumors 68000
Jan 12, 2019
1,823
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Tír na nÓg
I think you're being pedantic. Yes, I can browse the web on a PPC system. Do I? No, it's a horrible experience and I would not recommend anyone but an enthusiast even bother to try.
I highly doubt I'm being pendantic. Certain words have certain connotations and I was stating the connotation that "unusable" has.
 

iluvmacs99

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2019
920
671
Now the goal posts are shifting from those wanting to purchase a PPC to those who already have them. If a PPC system is all you have and you are unable to afford one of the earlier Intel Macs then you work with what you have. Those are not the people being referenced in the first video of the OP.
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Actually, the OP sounded more like a hypocrite than an authority of the topic, because usually when we talk about this issue, we tend to compare a machine to a specific standard. Does this machine meet this or that standard. If it doesn't, then it's not usable. You already showed you have a standard that the PPC machine does not meet yours. I respect that, but why does anyone else need to meet your standards and the OP's? Who is the OP to dictate what is the proper computer standards in 2020? I think that's the issue here is that, we sometimes like to impose a certain standard on other people, but lack the ear to listen to what they actually need rather than what you think they need. That was what I got the take from Dronecatcher with the iBook and that is what I do -- listen -- with my clients and not imposing what I think they need; rather than what they want out of the computer.
 
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