You Can/Can't Still Use PowerPC Macs in 2020!

[z970]

This right here. uMatrix makes the difference for me between usability and non-usability of FireFox-variant browsers. This is true whether I'm using Intel or PPC. Unfortunately for PPC, Firefox variants are all we have left in the browser space, at least on OS X. This very forum is worse than unacceptable, it's downright unusable (quite literally) for me with T4Fx on any PPC system, unless I'm using uMatrix. @defjam, if you never tried uMatrix or something like it to tame the javascript and other garbage code all over the web, then your experience is understandable.

On a 2 GHz G5 w/ TFF FPR19, I've been purely relying on a customized version of the MVPS hosts file + foxPEP 1.7 all this time, and have been seeing reasonably good performance on those two alone.

After reading this comment, I decided to put uMatrix 1.1.4 back for the hell of it, and it's made the Web that much more usable, even after the aforementioned additions and all.

So, I would certainly say those three ought to be a borderline requirement when expecting realistically usable, even good performance from TenFourFox, each serving a purpose of its own.

MVPS hosts removes the ads and their scripts, foxPEP accelerates image rendering, video playback, and site loading (plus a ton more), and uMatrix blocks the remaining third-party script cruft. With no hardware acceleration, the result must be seen to be believed.

Matches made in heaven.

 

[hrutkaymods]

Arguments for both here...I think the against argument is not as informed as it could be....

Hey thanks for picking up this topic! I’ll probably be doing a follow up video eventually with more examples and information. I’ve also learned even more than I already knew in the last few weeks since posting that response video

 

[Dronecatcher]

IMO your solution is very limited. IMO it would be better to get her something more capable. Given that people discard much more capable systems the counter argument "there's no money" doesn't really cut it.

How many times do I have to say it, she was broke and couldn't buy another machine and I was in no position to offer her one for free being a) broke myself and b) 4000 miles away.

Obviously he should continue using his iBook. Applying your argument anyone buying something more modern is a fool

If the machine they have is already fit for purpose and the money can be better spent elsewhere, yes they are.

 

[salamanderjuice]

To advise PPC users and owners that their machines are not useable is misinformation. My G5 outperforms my Core Duo in many tasks where the complete opposite outcome would be expected. I can't be convinced that the former is not useable when the evidence from my experiences demonstrates otherwise. My Sawtooth is now 20 years old and yet remains useable and practical for a variety of present day tasks.

Can you have the giant caveat "not usable for every everyday task at a quality you expect?" Sure, stuff like word processing and light image editing is doable on PPC Macs, but is streaming Netflix? Playing Fortnite? Skyping? Browsing 15 tabs at once? How big of a PITA is it to find remotely up to date software that still works?

An Apple II is still technically usable for tasks, but just can't handle everything a modern user expects from a computer. PPC Macs just can't anymore.

And I totally get trying steer clueless people away from $150 PowerBook G4s on eBay entranced by the look when a $100 White MacBook will do everything 5x faster with more modern features, security and software.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

On a 2 GHz G5 w/ TFF FPR19, I've been purely relying on a customized version of the MVPS hosts file + foxPEP 1.7 all this time, and have been seeing reasonably good performance on those two alone.

After reading this comment, I decided to put uMatrix 1.1.4 back for the hell of it, and it's made the Web that much more usable, even after the aforementioned additions and all.

So, I would certainly say those three ought to be a borderline requirement when expecting realistically usable, even good performance from TenFourFox, each serving a purpose of its own.

MVPS hosts removes the ads and their scripts, foxPEP accelerates image rendering, video playback, and site loading (plus a ton more), and uMatrix blocks the remaining third-party script cruft. With no hardware acceleration, the result must be seen to be believed.

Matches made in heaven.

Where may I find uMatrix? Is it just in the TFF extension store?

 

[AphoticD]

No harm in letting the YouTube masses believe these old systems are “unusable”. I’m not looking for validation or “what’s trending now” anyway.

A video from somebody looking to share their negative opinion on something I am interested in doesn’t change how I feel about it.

To compare computers and cars again; if you love a particular vintage / make / model car, truck or motorcycle you’ll gravitate toward it regardless of how fast, safe or economic it is.

My taste in music is no different. Nobody can convince me to change what I like.

There would be a very low percentage of PowerPC users (other than @eyoungren or @bunnspecial) who use these old Macs to produce their primary income with no possibility of moving to Intel hardware to continue their work - whether it be financial constraint or vintage software which simply isn’t available on newer hardware. For the majority of PowerPC users, we are making the hardware useful because we choose to.

The key underlying message with these kinds of videos is simply that people have no patience for older hardware... and it’s implied that they (and the viewer) shouldn’t have to.

 

[TheShortTimer]

Can you have the giant caveat "not usable for every everyday task at a quality you expect?"

It depends on what that "everyday task" is. For me, many everyday tasks would show no gain in quality whatsoever in carrying them out on the latest Mac models. In fact they might even be possible out of the box because Apple has removed the functionality at the hardware and software level.

Sure, stuff like word processing and light image editing is doable on PPC Macs, but is streaming Netflix?

I don't even use Netflix but I've already got truck load of other kit that can stream it if I feel inclined.

Playing Fortnite?

Ok, the quality of my computing is not measured on whether I can play Fortnite. I own numerous consoles and prefer that route for cutting edge gaming. I've never forgotten the advice that I received when I started dabbling with sound engineering: keep your Atari ST for sequencing and buy a PlayStation for when you want to play games.

Skyping?

Skype? Oh, that program. I've not used it in years and with good reason. I can live without that!

Browsing 15 tabs at once?

Seriously? That's how you judge the quality of computing? Ok, moving on...

How big of a PITA is it to find remotely up to date software that still works?

The software that I have on my Sawtooth workhorse for DAW purposes works just fine and doesn't need to be updated. Everything installed on there carries out the tasks that I require.

An Apple II is still technically usable for tasks, but just can't handle everything a modern user expects from a computer.

Straw man example but I admire your creativity.

PPC Macs just can't anymore.

The average "modern user" is browsing Facebook, Tinder/Grindr on their smartphone.

And I totally get trying steer clueless people away from $150 PowerBook G4s on eBay entranced by the look when a $100 White MacBook will do everything 5x faster with more modern features, security and software.

You talk about security and yet mention using Skype. 🤔

 

[defjam]

I don't know what to tell you, man. You're using a fully CPU-bound browser to wade through an ocean of JavaScript on a fifteen year old machine running a thirteen year old OS, and expect to get results that fall within your standard, which from the best I can gather, are GPU-accelerated browsers on ten year old machines running less than five year old OSes with Web-optimized graphics and media libraries OOB.

Therein lies the problem. I can get a great browsing experience without any hassle by using a slightly newer system that can be acquired for the similar cost.

And to top it all off, you won't even bother trying the solutions we've given you to improve your experience, which have been demonstratively shown to make life easier on the specific hardware you're using - in multiple use cases, no less.

That's where you're wrong. I did try some of the suggestions. Unfortunately I can't call any of them solutions. I was very pleased with the performance of LWK. Had it been stable and useable for more than 30 minutes of browsing I might have a different opinion. But it's not. I've taken Eric's tweaks and used them for TFF. I saw a slight improvement but the experience remained frustrating.

As for additional suggestions I decided it's not worth it. I was willing to try things but at some point I had to say it's not worth it. It appeared as if I would be peeling that onion forever. One doesn't have to jump through hoops to have an acceptable browsing experience on more capable systems which have similar (or possibly lower) acquisition costs. The final nail in the coffin was when someone made the comment that using multiple browsers was the best way to browse the web on a PPC.
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I think maybe you gave up too soon. A satisfactory web experience is attainable on PPC, but not without its challenges. It isn't worth the effort to everyone, and that's understandable too.

This is exactly my point. I tried a few suggestions which ended up having issues of one sort or another. At one point I just said it's not worth it when I have other options.
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How many times do I have to say it, she was broke and couldn't buy another machine and I was in no position to offer her one for free being a) broke myself and b) 4000 miles away.

This is the first time you've said it. This woman's situation has become more and more of a hardship during this discussion.

If the machine they have is already fit for purpose and the money can be better spent elsewhere, yes they are.

That's where you and I differ. I doubt it's fit for purpose. It might be fit for that one purpose but I would be very surprised if that one single purpose is all they wanted out of a computer. Or perhaps, given it's limitations, that's all they expect out of that computer. IMO you can address her immediate need and then suggest she look around for an alternative. As has been said here countless times...much more capable systems are being tossed or given away all of the time. I've given away countless systems over the years. In fact, just a couple of months ago, I just gave away a 2007 MacBook, perfect shape...not a thing wrong with it.

 

[defjam]

A video from somebody looking to share their negative opinion on something I am interested in doesn’t change how I feel about it.

I don't get the impression anyone is attempting to change your opinion regarding PPC. No one is trying to change the opinion of any enthusiast who wants to use a PPC for their daily driver. The only "changing" is to make the average user aware that PPC systems are useable despite the paper specifications.
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It depends on what that "everyday task" is. For me, many everyday tasks would show no gain in quality whatsoever in carrying them out on the latest Mac models. In fact they might even be possible out of the box because Apple has removed the functionality at the hardware and software level.



I don't even use Netflix but I've already got truck load of other kit that can stream it if I feel inclined.



Ok, the quality of my computing is not measured on whether I can play Fortnite. I own numerous consoles and prefer that route for cutting edge gaming. I've never forgotten the advice that I received when I started dabbling with sound engineering: keep your Atari ST for sequencing and buy a PlayStation for when you want to play games.



Skype? Oh, that program. I've not used it in years and with good reason. I can live without that!



Seriously? That's how you judge the quality of computing? Ok, moving on...



The software that I have on my Sawtooth workhorse for DAW purposes works just fine and doesn't need to be updated. Everything installed on there carries out the tasks that I require.



Straw man example but I admire your creativity.



The average "modern user" is browsing Facebook, Tinder/Grindr on their smartphone.



You talk about security and yet mention using Skype. 🤔

Being dismissive of the tasks many people do with their computers doesn't change the fact a PPC system is unusable for these people. No one is trying to say you shouldn't use a PPC. The context is the average user.

 

[salamanderjuice]

It depends on what that "everyday task" is. For me, many everyday tasks would show no gain in quality whatsoever in carrying them out on the latest Mac models. In fact they might even be possible out of the box because Apple has removed the functionality at the hardware and software level.



I don't even use Netflix but I've already got truck load of other kit that can stream it if I feel inclined.



Ok, the quality of my computing is not measured on whether I can play Fortnite. I own numerous consoles and prefer that route for cutting edge gaming. I've never forgotten the advice that I received when I started dabbling with sound engineering: keep your Atari ST for sequencing and buy a PlayStation for when you want to play games.



Skype? Oh, that program. I've not used it in years and with good reason. I can live without that!



Seriously? That's how you judge the quality of computing? Ok, moving on...



The software that I have on my Sawtooth workhorse for DAW purposes works just fine and doesn't need to be updated. Everything installed on there carries out the tasks that I require.



Straw man example but I admire your creativity.



The average "modern user" is browsing Facebook, Tinder/Grindr on their smartphone.



You talk about security and yet mention using Skype. 🤔

Yeah, I'm sure Edward Snowden endorses using a operating system that hasn't seen an update in a decade too.

I'm not saying there is no tasks a PPC Mac can handle but for most tasks a PPC Mac is a poor choice over a more modern computer running modern software. Especially if you have to collaborate with anyone else ever.

And yeah, running Skype, playing Fortnite, and watching Netflix are common tasks people do on their PCs and expect to work. Jobs even conduct interviews over Skype these days and meetings are done over it too. And yeah, I do browse typically with 15+ tabs, and no that's not the entirety of how I judge computing performance or quality. I do a lot of scientific programming with software that would take a herculean effort to get going on a PPC Mac to run at the tenth the speeds of a modern machine if I don't even run into RAM limitations but I know that's not a typical use case.

PPC Macs are pretty and fun to fiddle with, I like the iBook G4 I picked up recently and miss my iMac G3 and G4 tower but I can't seriously comprehend moving all or the majority of my computing needs over to one in this day and age. I certainly wouldn't recommend one to a non-collector or enthusiast. Even at a budget when more powerful Intel Macs are available at the same price or less and newer used PC machines are even cheaper.

 

[Dronecatcher]

This is the first time you've said it. This woman's situation has become more and more of a hardship during this discussion.

Which one of these previous statements lead you to believe I'd implied she wasn't broke?

"buying another computer was totally out of the question"

"She was pretty desperate, it was that iBook or nothing"

"she'd already been very frank about her financial circumstances"

"There's no money for another computer"

That's where you and I differ. I doubt it's fit for purpose.

I shouldn't really engage you any further on this as I assume now you are just being deliberately contentious.

 

[eyoungren]

Where may I find uMatrix? Is it just in the TFF extension store?

At the top of the PowerPC forum is my tweak thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/my-tenfourfox-about-config-tweaks-and-my-addons.1838393/

In Post #1 it lists the address for the addon here: https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix/releases?after=1.1.6

Understand that when Mozilla switched the structure of addons it meant that we are unable to install addons from the main site. There is a link in my first post to a site for legacy (us) addons as well.

What all that means is that you have to manually install the addon. Download it, then go to your addon page and then either click on the button to search for and add uMatrix or drag and drop it into the addon page. There is no more ability (except I think on the legacy site) to click "Install Addon" on a webpage.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

At the top of the PowerPC forum is my tweak thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/my-tenfourfox-about-config-tweaks-and-my-addons.1838393/

In Post #1 it list the address for the addon here: https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix/releases?after=1.1.6

Understand that when Mozilla switched the structure of addons it meant that we are unable to install addons from the main site. There is a link in my first post to a site for legacy (us) addons as well.

What all that means is that you have to manually install the addon. Download it, then go to your addon page and then either click on the button to search for and add uMatrix or drag and drop it into the addon page. There is no more ability (except I think on the legacy site) to click "Install Addon" on a webpage.

Ok, thank you!

 

[Amethyst1]

Not to fuel this debate further, but to provide an example: one of my acquaintances still uses an iBook G4 running Tiger as their only (!) computer for word processing, iTunes, loading in pictures from an old digital camera and occasionally, watching a DVD. Everything else, i.e. surfing the web, email, messaging, gaming, streaming media etc. is handled by their smartphone and that particular person is fine with it, because it's basically become their primary device, with the computer getting turned on only for those tasks the phone cannot handle (conveniently). So, this works for them.

I'm the complete opposite. I'm a computer person through-and-through and hate/avoid using a smartphone unless I absolutely have to. So, my primary computer has to handle everything I care to throw at it, and with ease. And that means it's got to be a reasonably recent x86 box. Don't get me wrong, I love using my PPC machines for what they do well as well as tinkering and discovering new things to try with them. But for me, they won't do as primary machine anymore.

 

[Amethyst1]

You've raised some great points there, @AphoticD. I agree 100%.

No harm in letting the YouTube masses believe these old systems are “unusable”.

There's one way I can see that this could be harmful in - if it causes owners of "unusable" PPC Macs to improperly dispose of them, creating toxic e-waste. But if it means those systems are given away for free (or sold if need be), allowing someone else who hopefully knows what to expect from them, to have fun with or get some good use out of them, that's all the better.

 

[defjam]

I shouldn't really engage you any further on this as I assume now you are just being deliberately contentious.

I think it's your unwillingness to understand a differing point of view.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I think it's your unwillingness to understand a differing point of view.

If by point of view you mean your unwillingness to fully read my comments, make hasty conclusions and furthermore discredit my informed opinion on a generalised comment I make....then no, I don't want to understand your differing point of view.

 

[defjam]

If by point of view you mean your unwillingness to fully read my comments, make hasty conclusions and furthermore discredit my informed opinion on a generalised comment I make....then no, I don't want to understand your differing point of view.

Here you go again with the personal attacks. Offering a different perspective does not mean I didn't fully read your comments nor did I make hasty conclusions. I'm offering a different perspective but you're hell bent on justifying the use of PPC systems you're ignoring them and instead attacking the person offering the different opinion. You'd rather argue about it than say "Yeah, I understand where you're coming from".

 

[Dronecatcher]

Here you go again with the personal attacks. Offering a different perspective does not mean I didn't fully read your comments nor did I make hasty conclusions. I'm offering a different perspective but you're hell bent on justifying the use of PPC systems you're ignoring them and instead attacking the person offering the different opinion. You'd rather argue about it than say "Yeah, I understand where you're coming from".

Again, the evidence is in the thread itself - nowhere am I "justifying the use of PPC systems" - I stated the Youtube author wrongly maintained TFF can't play Youtube and disagreed that "non-techy" "average Joe" users don't need accurate info on PPC Macs by citing the example of the woman with the iBook.

 

[defjam]

That would be the 1.6 iMac.

iMac G5/1.6 17" Specs (iMac G5, M9248LL/A, PowerMac8,1, A1058, 1989): EveryMac.com

Technical specifications for the iMac G5/1.6 17". Dates sold, processor type, memory info, hard drive details, price and more.

everymac.com

Well, that depends. The 1.6GHz system has an 800MHz (1/2 processor clock speed) bus whereas the 1.8GHz system has a 600MHz (1/3 processor clock speed) bus. Personally I'll take the faster processor speed but some would argue for a faster bus.

 

[z970]

a $100 White MacBook will do everything 5x faster with more modern features, security and software.

As a simplification, thinking you're safe by using even the most secure operating system in the world running on a post-965 Intel chipset is like hiding in a maximum security underground maze with a tracking device on your back.

Any Intel computer equipped with the Management Engine by definition automatically forfeits security.

But of course, the average Joe that just wants to play Fortnite and watch 4K YouTube likely doesn't place much priority on that stuff anyway.

What all that means is that you have to manually install the addon. Download it, then go to your addon page and then either click on the button to search for and add uMatrix or drag and drop it into the addon page. There is no more ability (except I think on the legacy site) to click "Install Addon" on a webpage.

All I've ever had to do is go to the addon's GitHub releases page, download the latest available "firefox.xpi" option, and TFF automatically installs it as an addon. No file movement required.

Well, that depends. The 1.6GHz system has an 800MHz (1/2 processor clock speed) bus whereas the 1.8GHz system has a 600MHz (1/3 processor clock speed) bus. Personally I'll take the faster processor speed but some would argue for a faster bus.

The linked iMac G5 has a 533mhz bus, making it the slowest G5.

As for the second slowest G5, that would probably be the 1.6 Power Mac as that pulls a GeekBench score of 918 as opposed to the 1.8's 1005. The Power Mac G4 MDD 1.47 had a 167mhz bus, and in many tests was shown to either keep up or go toe to toe with the low-end G5s, even with their massively faster FSB speeds. - Case in point, the MDD 1.42's GB is 1224.

 

[Amethyst1]

Well, that depends. The 1.6GHz system has an 800MHz (1/2 processor clock speed) bus whereas the 1.8GHz system has a 600MHz (1/3 processor clock speed) bus. Personally I'll take the faster processor speed but some would argue for a faster bus.

We need to find a way to underclock these systems to create the slowest G5 ever...

Not.

Or do we?

 

[defjam]

The linked iMac G5 has a 533mhz bus, making it the slowest G5.

My mistake, I assume PowerMac G5 tower systems.

 

[Amethyst1]

As for the second slowest G5, that would probably be the 1.6 Power Mac as that pulls a GeekBench score of 918 as opposed to the 1.8's 1005. The Power Mac G4 MDD 1.47 had a 167mhz bus, and in many tests was shown to either keep up or go toe to toe with the low-end G5s, even with their massively faster FSB speeds. - Case in point, the MDD 1.42's GB is 1224.

To be fair, that MDD has two CPUs. Those G5s only have one.
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As a simplification, thinking you're safe by using even the most secure operating system in the world running on a post-965 Intel chipset is like hiding in a maximum security underground maze with a tracking device on your back.

Any Intel computer equipped with the Management Engine by definition automatically forfeits security.

Get a Core 2 system running on a 945 chipset then - no ME as you know, and good performance. Any Late 2006 Intel Mac, save for the Mac Pro, fits the bill.

 

[fourbirds]

Old computers regardless of architecture will be slower at accomplishing certain tasks, incapable of accomplishing others, and just as fast for again others. If your needs are matched by using an older PPC Mac, then good. If your needs render an old computer incapable in meeting your expectations, then upgrade ($$) or reevaluate your needs.