Wait, are you saying these Cherry keyboards are made to feel like the T420/X220-era pre-chiclet ThinkPad keyboards? My last laptop was an X220 running macOS and that keyboard was something special (also have an X230 which is sadly much worse), would be very interested in that Cherry board if it’s got that pre-chiclet Lenovo feeling (and key spacing/shape).
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I visited the Apple Store today and tried out the new MacBook Pro keyboards...
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I don't remember where I read this, but one suggestion I read said that Apple is pursuing greater homogeneity between Macs and iPhones and iPads. It seems they've pursued a greater homogeneity not only among software features and appearances, but also among hardware features. MacBooks have seen a downward trend in key travel, which someone in this topic said would not have bothered people accustomed to software keyboards on iPhones and iPads. MacBooks have acquired the notch (even as the iPhone moves away from it). And the MacBook Air has only had 2 USB-C ports for a while now.
Now, I'll argue that the iPhonification of the Mac has made its hardware worse. MacBooks have not benefited from less key travel, even if some software keyboard users might not mind. The notch provides 0 benefits to MacBook users. As the iPhone moves away from the notch, the MacBook notch will be seen as an annoying fad that shoehorned its way into a product that never needed it. Thirdly, offering only 2 USB-C ports on the MacBook Air is very stingy. Not having any I/O on the right side of your MacBook Air is like not having a car door on the right side of your car. It's very inconvenient.
I will admit that one benefit of the iPhonification of the Mac has been the transition to Apple Silicon. People don't want laptops to cook their laps because they run too hot. People want more battery life. People want a fast processor. Apple Silicon has done well by providing all of those benefits.
But as I've argued, the iPhonification of the Mac has not been a complete improvement. It's been more of a one step forward, two steps back sort of change. (Yes, indeed, "two steps back", for Macintosh software has also lost features as it was made more similar to iOS software.) As someone who respects what the original 1984 Macintosh stood for, and was enamored with the beautiful iMac G3 at his school growing up, the Macintosh ideal will continue to live on in the hearts of old school fans before the iPhone came about and changed everything.
Now, I'll argue that the iPhonification of the Mac has made its hardware worse. MacBooks have not benefited from less key travel, even if some software keyboard users might not mind. The notch provides 0 benefits to MacBook users. As the iPhone moves away from the notch, the MacBook notch will be seen as an annoying fad that shoehorned its way into a product that never needed it. Thirdly, offering only 2 USB-C ports on the MacBook Air is very stingy. Not having any I/O on the right side of your MacBook Air is like not having a car door on the right side of your car. It's very inconvenient.
I will admit that one benefit of the iPhonification of the Mac has been the transition to Apple Silicon. People don't want laptops to cook their laps because they run too hot. People want more battery life. People want a fast processor. Apple Silicon has done well by providing all of those benefits.
But as I've argued, the iPhonification of the Mac has not been a complete improvement. It's been more of a one step forward, two steps back sort of change. (Yes, indeed, "two steps back", for Macintosh software has also lost features as it was made more similar to iOS software.) As someone who respects what the original 1984 Macintosh stood for, and was enamored with the beautiful iMac G3 at his school growing up, the Macintosh ideal will continue to live on in the hearts of old school fans before the iPhone came about and changed everything.
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You’re just saying your opinion is a fact.
Your opinion is absolutely not a fact.
Personally, I really liked the butterfly keyboard… Until it stopped working and I had to have it replaced four times.
But I absolutely love the new M2 MacBook Air keyboard, even more than the butterfly keyboard, and even more than my really old super mushy 2009 white MacBook keyboard.
Saying that more key travel equals a better keyboard is just your opinion.
Some loved the almost haptic feedback feeling keyboards of the 12 inch MacBook.
Some want to feel like they’re pushing buttons on top of a fluffy piece of bread.
Everyone’s slightly different, but I think Apple’s current keyboards are fine for most people.
Their right at a medium between the super low travel and clicky butterfly keyboards that lots loved, and the super mushy scissor mechanism keyboards of the older MacBooks.
If you really need an absolutely fantastic keyboard that fits all of your qualifications, you should not be looking at the one that comes built into any laptop or one that Apple makes.
By far the best laptop keyboard I've ever used was a Powerbook 1400CS. Damn that thing was nice. I wish there was a way to transplant that keyboard into a modern computer. I find the new M chip Macbooks a little disappointing. The keys feel mushy even compared to my desktop Magic Keyboard (gen 3) which isn't that great itself tbh.
You'll have to look very hard to find where I said, especially in that particular post you quoted, that my opinion is fact. Rather, I argued the exact opposite: That for us to have a productive conversation about whether keyboards have gotten better or worse, we must first "agree" on some "standard of excellence" such as key travel, which is a fantastic objective measurement of how much depth each key has. And we must "agree" on a "standard of excellence" in keyboards before we discuss them because, as you said: "Everyone's slightly different".
This is all very true, but also using the models that are in the store for five minutes is not a good representation at all.
There’s a reason why there’s a 15 day or whatever it is return policy, store usage isn’t the same as actual usage.
The removal of the home button is a good example, I knew a lot of people who played with iPhone X in the store, and thought the removal of the home button was completely ridiculous, and absolutely hated it… Until they actually bought a phone and were used to it within the day.
A few people in this thread have commented about how we all have a tendency to judge what we're currently used to as the ideal just because we're used to it. Most of us are pretty emotionally biased in this way.
I was too until I sought to justify my former obsession with mechanical keyboards by doing a series of typing tests to measure how much better I could type on my favorite board vs the worst one in my posession. The results surprised me. I took 5 minute typing tests on each. There was barely a difference between my favorite board and the most garbage keyboard with stiffened rubber domes.
This isn't to say that every keyboard is fine for anyone and they just need to learn how to use it better, but we shouldn't make definitive judgements based on short exposures. Some people are much better athletes than others and have an easier time adapting their movements to new situations. Some people are better artists. Some can analyze tones or compose music better. Besides having different physical strengths and limitations, we each also have differing cognitive abilities to adapt to our environments.
As someone who spent some 15 years on mechanical keyboards (IBM Model M / AE2), I agree that it feels better, but I disagree that it's actually a superior tool.
IME the best keyboard is the one you have to work least at. Mechanical keyboards are great insofar the mechanism has excellent feedback for when you type 'through' the strike point without bottoming out. So your fingers can fly with reckless abandon. The advantage here is they require less precision to use without strain. The disadvantage is they require more work by definition, both force and travel are greater than a modern Macbook keyboard. Considerably so.
People decrying the latest keyboards simply need to adjust their typing force. The "typing on concrete" is an indication a person is typing too hard, which of course will happen naturally without taking time to adjust. As an older programmer who has been typing since '82 I was even able to do 90wpm steady and burst 150 wpm on the butterfly keyboard for years without a hint of rsi.
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Really? I think being able to interact with an app’s toolbar in full screen without accidentally causing the Menu Bad to shift the whole thing down is pretty convenient.
Plus the rounded corners are worth it.
That's not a benefit of the notch but of the extra screen real estate added above the 16:10 portion of the screen, which they could still do without the notch.
Plus, it's really creepy to have that large notch with a large camera always looking at you while you're on your laptop, as if you're always being watched.
I can guarantee you mcdevidr isn’t tickling the ivories on a +10yo Steinway with outdated tuning pins, bridge, pinblock, hammers, or pedals.
Step 5: people start ignoring the thread and leave few people argument to each other.
I've perused online forums since High School, and there are few interlocutors you'll meet who will enrich you with kind, knowledgeable, and gracious advice or perspective. Sometimes, however, participating is worth the risk of meeting unkind conversationalists if there's a chance to sharpen the mind on a particular topic.
Hard disagree. The only metric you mention in your comments is key travel, but as also say in your other messages the idea of a "good" keyboard is a bit subjective. It's true that key travel is one metric that can be used to measure...key travel, but not everyone agrees that more key travel always equals better typing.
Pretty much everyone agrees that the butterfly keyboards were a terrible decision, but all of that is in the past. The current keyboards on both the Pro and the Air are excellent. They may not have as much key travel as back in 2015, but they still feel very solid and reliable. For example, you can still press the keys from any side/angle and the key will uniformly press down. Many Windows laptop keyboards won't do this, and in fact the really terrible laptops have keys that can even get jammed under the laptop frame on some occasions.
Saying that you're going to buy another 2015 MBP instead of buying an M1 or M2 MBP, solely based on the keyboard (since the M1 and M2 MBP have all the other features you mentioned), is just silly. Apple silicon blows the Intel processors out of the water.
Apple Silicon chips have certainly received good reviews for their performance. But my Intel Core i7 processor in my early 2015 MacBook Pro runs internet/email/contacts/calendar apps, productivity software, widgets such as calc and dictionary, and iLife apps such as Music and Photos with such speed as I've never seen before. Most can get by with a 7-8 year old laptop like most can get by with a 7-8 year old car.
Yes, and I could render a Pixar film on a vacuum-tube computer given unlimited time, but why would I when better tools exist? For those that need them, the new chips are very much worth it, even if they “could get by” with a 7-8 year old laptop.
Because most cannot afford expensive upgrades willy-nilly.
I held onto my 2015 MacBook Pro for as long as I could, and eventually picked up a 2019 in 2020. I wanted one final Intel Mac that could still run Mojave and also run the Windows VMs I need. At some point, I plan on an AS Mac. Point though is that my 2019 rMBP runs much faster for things I do (32GB and faster 2TB storage help a lot) and as much as I love/miss the 2015 rMBP keyboard (and to be honest I think the 2012 rMBP keyboard was even better), I’d rather have the snappier performance, brighter display, faster I/O with TB3 with a butterfly keyboard even at the expense of MagSafe and 2015 keyboard. I agree that the 2015 is still a capable daily driver for the average person not doing much in the way of content production, but why handicap yourself by sticking with a now 8yo laptop when the latest MBPs are superior in every way (notch notwithstanding). Even if you consider the latest MBP keyboard inferior to the 2015 keyboard, it’s definite not the compromise butterfly keyboard would represent.
If that 8 year old i7 meets your definition of "speed as I've never seen before", then any current equivalent processor on the market (Intel i7, AMD Ryzen 7, or Apple Silicon) would likely blow past that machine as if it was standing still. There's also the issue of software compatibility and OS support. More often than not, newer software will require either a newer processor or a newer version of the operating system. As older machines reach the end of their support cycle, it will become harder to run the applications you use on a daily basis - that principle holds true regardless of CPU manufacturer or operating system.
I generally am not a big fan of most laptop keyboards but absolutely love the new Mac keyboards.
I really appreciate how, although you have different priorities than me, the way you describe MacBook Pros tells me that we're seeing the same things.
Honestly, you are better off getting a good non-Apple keyboard instead of sacrificing the benefits of the newest MacBooks. This comparison talks about mechanical keyboards, but there are probably good and light low-profile ones as well.
www.theverge.com
Just like how photographers and hobby photographers accept they will have to carry a dedicated camera to get better photos than their phone, or gamers will carry something like a Steam Deck, you may have to accept carrying a keyboard.
The best mechanical keyboards to buy right now
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Just like how photographers and hobby photographers accept they will have to carry a dedicated camera to get better photos than their phone, or gamers will carry something like a Steam Deck, you may have to accept carrying a keyboard.
I had both of those computers and did not care for the way the whole thing flexed down when you typed. The switches were all sitting on a circuit board held in place with little clips. It WAS easy to clean out, for sure, and it did have good key travel.
My favorite is probably the 11" MacBook Air. It had good rigidity but also generous key travel. (That was the perfect little ultraportable writing Mac, and it's never been properly replaced in the lineup.)