I visited the Apple Store today and tried out the new MacBook Pro keyboards...

[jwdsail]

A few people in this thread have commented about how we all have a tendency to judge what we're currently used to as the ideal just because we're used to it. Most of us are pretty emotionally biased in this way.

I was too until I sought to justify my former obsession with mechanical keyboards by doing a series of typing tests to measure how much better I could type on my favorite board vs the worst one in my posession. The results surprised me. I took 5 minute typing tests on each. There was barely a difference between my favorite board and the most garbage keyboard with stiffened rubber domes.

This isn't to say that every keyboard is fine for anyone and they just need to learn how to use it better, but we shouldn't make definitive judgements based on short exposures. Some people are much better athletes than others and have an easier time adapting their movements to new situations. Some people are better artists. Some can analyze tones or compose music better. Besides having different physical strengths and limitations, we each also have differing cognitive abilities to adapt to our environments.

I'd like to see a similar test, but where the metric isn't typing speed, but comfort?

Keep typing on each, until you have to tap out. Until you're, "screw this I'm done with this one".

That would be more useful data than typing speed for most everyone, outside of people doing data entry professionally, I'd think?

Someone who's a proficient typist more than likely can grind out WPM for 5 min fairly consistently across input devices, as long as the starting hand/finger positions are all relatively close?

Long-term comfort, however is going to factor in several ergonomic factors, including key travel, hand position, etc...

 

[darngooddesign]

That's not a benefit of the notch but of the extra screen real estate added above the 16:10 portion of the screen, which they could still do without the notch.

Yes, they could have don't it by increasing the size of the MBP. Without using a dark wallpaper or making a custom wallpaper I can dynamically hide the notch two ways, one is with Top Notch which simply makes the menubar black, the other is with Lunar Pro which matches the pre-notch MacBooks by moving the entire Menubar down. After a year of my MBP's thin bezels, a thick black top bezel looks weird to me.

Plus, it's really creepy to have that large notch with a large camera always looking at you while you're on your laptop, as if you're always being watched.

Your 2015 MBP's camera is always looking at you, but like a creepy stalker it's hiding behind the bushes.

 

[smirking]

I'd like to see a similar test, but where the metric isn't typing speed, but comfort?

Keep typing on each, until you have to tap out. Until you're, "screw this I'm done with this one".

There's no objective way to test for comfort though and a five minute typing test is actually quite strenuous. It doesn't sound like much, but I'm a very proficient typist and it wasn't a cakewalk.

At the time I was about a 120wpm typist on 1 minute tests. On 5 minute tests, I'd drop to 80-85 due to fatigue. I felt less comfortable from beginning to end on the bad keyboard, yet the end result was barely different.

But yes, a speed typing test is not a very good way to determine comfort and comfort does matter. What I'm trying to show is that it's very hard to come up with a reliable metric to identify whether a design is ideal or not so mostly conversations about keyboards are conversations about emotions, which may be why they're so contentious.

 

[mectojic]

I had both of those computers and did not care for the way the whole thing flexed down when you typed. The switches were all sitting on a circuit board held in place with little clips. It WAS easy to clean out, for sure, and it did have good key travel.

My favorite is probably the 11" MacBook Air. It had good rigidity but also generous key travel. (That was the perfect little ultraportable writing Mac, and it's never been properly replaced in the lineup.)

Fair enough. And yes, the 11-inch is the ultimate portable Mac experience. Actually typing this on my 2015 11-inch Air now!

 

[Love-hate 🍏 relationship]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

Funny, I actually find the new mbp to be rather generous with travel distance

 

[257Loner]

Funny, I actually find the new mbp to be rather generous with travel distance

Relative to the butterfly keyboards, yes. Compared to the 2015 rMBP or 2012 uMBP, unfortunately no.

 

[Love-hate 🍏 relationship]

Relative to the butterfly keyboards, yes. Compared to the 2015 rMBP or 2012 uMBP, unfortunately no.

I haven’t had the chance to use such old macs , but I’m comparing them with…well , objectively first( from a pure sensation perspective )

And also compared to previous 2019mbp , mba m1, mbp m1 , mba m2

Btw idk if you noticed but there are some huge variations between keyboards . I presume they come from different manufacturers

Some are smoother and have more track distance I feel, other are more .. tactile and feel rather stiff

 

[smirking]

Btw idk if you noticed but there are some huge variations between keyboards . I presume they come from different manufacturers

Even ones from the same model and year can have slightly different keyboards with variations due to manufacturing. Keyboards can also break in. It may not feel quite the same after a few months of use. Go to an Apple Store and just try out every keyboard. It's surprising how different they can feel from one machine to the next.

 

[RaphaZ]

As a user I like the keyboard.
However, right now I’m trying to read a book and someone is typing on a Mac.
Its absolutely impossible to have a good reading experience with this noise.
I invite you to do this experience.

 

[pshufd]

I have not tried the keyboards on the M2 MacBook Pros but I have an M1 MacBook Pro and I like it quite a bit.

My preference on desktop keyboards are Cherry MX Blues (I would like even heavier activation but those are hard to find). So I like loud, clicky keys that require a fair amount of force.

I had a 2008 MacBook Pro 17 and the articulation and feel of the keytops was great. The keys were rounded and had a lot of travel.

I have 2014 and 2015 MacBook Pro 15s and they feel mushy and quiet but only after I switched to mechanical keyboards. The 2021 MacBook Pro keys are great. Very good tactile feedback, moderate effort to press. I'd like more travel but that's always a compromise when you're trying to keep things thin. I will have to give the 2023 MacBook Pros a try as I would be happier with even more feedback.

 

[pshufd]

As a user I like the keyboard.
However, right now I’m trying to read a book and someone is typing on a Mac.
Its absolutely impossible to have a good reading experience with this noise.
I invite you to do this experience.

I have headphones for when I want to block out ambient noise from phone calls or typing.

 

[dmccloud]

I have not tried the keyboards on the M2 MacBook Pros but I have an M1 MacBook Pro and I like it quite a bit.

My preference on desktop keyboards are Cherry MX Blues (I would like even heavier activation but those are hard to find). So I like loud, clicky keys that require a fair amount of force.

I had a 2008 MacBook Pro 17 and the articulation and feel of the keytops was great. The keys were rounded and had a lot of travel.

I have 2014 and 2015 MacBook Pro 15s and they feel mushy and quiet but only after I switched to mechanical keyboards. The 2021 MacBook Pro keys are great. Very good tactile feedback, moderate effort to press. I'd like more travel but that's always a compromise when you're trying to keep things thin. I will have to give the 2023 MacBook Pros a try as I would be happier with even more feedback.

To my knowledge, the 2022/23 MBP keyboards are identical to their M1 counterparts. At the very least, I really did not notice any difference between the 2020 M1 13" Pro and my 2023 M2 Max 14" Pro keyboard.

 

[pshufd]

To my knowledge, the 2022/23 MBP keyboards are identical to their M1 counterparts. At the very least, I really did not notice any difference between the 2020 M1 13" Pro and my 2023 M2 Max 14" Pro keyboard.

The keys do soften with time on my M1 Pro MacBook Pro. I actually prefer it clickier.

 

[teh_hunterer]

You're right. The older Unibody keyboard had even more travel, which I know from personal experience. However, if I was to replace my Retina MacBook Pro, it would be with a similar model since it weighs an entire pound less than the older unibody MacBook Pro. It's remarkable how keyboards have consistently gotten worse. The Retina had the last good one.

So you're not going to address the fact you posted a video about the old butterfly keyboard as if it was about the current keyboards?

 

[teh_hunterer]

Gotta love how many threads on this forum start with garbage hot takes that look like they’re just posted here to make it to the front page and drive up “engagement“.

No ****. And the OP in these threads never backs down, never clarifies their opinion. Ever.

 

[iikaros]

Hate to burst your bubble folks...but Apple doesn't know diddly about keyboards.

I have an M2 14" MBP, and have had multiple previous generations. Also have and have used many different models and generations of Thinkpad. Thinkpad's have the best keyboards in the industry.

X1 Yoga Gen 4 & 5, and X1 Carbon 6 & 7 are the industry best for laptop keyboards. Anyone who disagrees is drinking way too much of the Apple kool-aid.

 

[unrigestered]

keyboard feels are personal though.
there are people who swear by mechanical keyboards being ultimately superior, while for me those are more of a hipsters thing.

 

[FreakinEurekan]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

I mean… could you see an advantage of a pre-2016 keyboard over 2023? I guess so… I have a 2013 MacBook Air and a 2021 16” MacBook Pro and I don’t find the pro to be a worse typing experience by any great measure. It’s certainly not something I’d sacrifice the Apple Silicon to get rid of 🧐

 

[pshufd]

I mean… could you see an advantage of a pre-2016 keyboard over 2023? I guess so… I have a 2013 MacBook Air and a 2021 16” MacBook Pro and I don’t find the pro to be a worse typing experience by any great measure. It’s certainly not something I’d sacrifice the Apple Silicon to get rid of 🧐

The advantage of the keyboards on the Retina MacBook Pros was more key travel. Apple has substituted tactile feedback in the form of a click, to compensate for the key travel and bottoming out. I use a 2015 MacBook Pro from time to time and I find that I prefer the 2021 keyboard. Of course, the ideal for me would be to have both; and that's why I use noisy, clicky mechanical keyboards in my office.

 

[257Loner]

The advantage of the keyboards on the Retina MacBook Pros was more key travel. Apple has substituted tactile feedback in the form of a click, to compensate for the key travel and bottoming out. I use a 2015 MacBook Pro from time to time and I find that I prefer the 2021 keyboard. Of course, the ideal for me would be to have both; and that's why I use noisy, clicky mechanical keyboards in my office.

I'm telling you, it would be awesome if Apple would imitate the PC world a little and allow customers the option to choose a mechanical keyboard for their laptops.

 

[dmccloud]

I'm telling you, it would be awesome if Apple would imitate the PC world a little and allow customers the option to choose a mechanical keyboard for their laptops.

They would have to modify the entire machine to accommodate a mechanical keyboard, which would make it at the very least slightly thicker and heavier. I've never been a big fan of mechanical keyboards on a laptop, and even the gaming keyboard I use with my gaming PC uses silent but tactile switches with a short activation range. The big, loud, overtly clicky keyboards remind me too much of a typewriter, and that's something I don't want to go back to.

 

[257Loner]

They would have to modify the entire machine to accommodate a mechanical keyboard, which would make it at the very least slightly thicker and heavier. I've never been a big fan of mechanical keyboards on a laptop, and even the gaming keyboard I use with my gaming PC uses silent but tactile switches with a short activation range. The big, loud, overtly clicky keyboards remind me too much of a typewriter, and that's something I don't want to go back to.

I believe they have short throw, chiclet-sized, and silent mechanical keyboards. But there's a way to improve the current MacBook Pro keyboards. They've done better many times before.

 

[DeepSix]

I use a 2021 M1 MBP for a work computer and I dread everytime I have to use that keyboard to type on. It's like typing on blocks of fire wood. Thankfully I don't have to type much on it, no more than 20 characters. But it's one of the worst keyboards I've ever used in my life. Its so bad that its a deal breaker and will not buy a recent M2 MBP to use as my own just because the keyboard is so bad.

Every now and then I may have to take the laptop home overnight and if I do, I connect one of my own bluetooth keyboards to it. It's that bad. Don't want finger strain after and have to see the doctor after.

The M2 air keyboard however is noticeably better. I was typing on the demo in Best Buy and after I got used to it after a few mins, it was quite good and I would tolerate it if I was to buy an Air.

 

[Turnpike]

If you're using a 2015 Macbook Pro in 2024 (like I am) I bet you'd be HAPPY with a new laptop that's the exact same size, weight, and EVERYTHING, with the internals being updated to the M3, right? This was the ultimate machine as far as serviceability, build, lighted apple in the lid, keyboard, ports, Mag Safe.... if Apple made a limited run of these with new internals, I bet they would be the most popular thing EVER.

 

[coffeemilktea]

Personally, I think the 2006 MacBook Pro had the best keyboard of any laptop I've ever used, but there's no way Apple is going back to anything like that now.

Realistically, if you want a good keyboard experience, you'd just have to buy a good Bluetooth keyboard and pair it to your Mac. Though I guess this isn't ideal if you're using your MacBook Pro at Starbucks or something. 🙃