I visited the Apple Store today and tried out the new MacBook Pro keyboards...

[257Loner]

You keep insisting there is one standard and that you're going by that one objective standard. I'm telling you as a professional that it's way more complicated than that and there isn't simply a line that says this device is ergonomic and this one isn't. It all depends on the person and context in which it's used which is why this is such a contentious conversation.

People who don't understand this argue like they're talking about different realities... because they ARE different realities.

If you were my physical therapist, I would hear you out. I would understand from what you were telling me that it might be worth trying out a variety of mice, ergonomic or unergonomic, to see if anything at all alleviated my carpal tunnel.

But when Apple designs a product, they must find out in advance what most people will like. They cannot subscribe to "horses for courses" because everyone is going to get the same keyboard. Therefore, Apple is tasked with finding what makes a keyboard objectively good in the hopes of satisfying as many of their customers as possible. The opening post of this topic noted that Apple has forgotten what made their previous keyboards great since they've lost keyboard travel generation after generation after generation. And this has made typing on them very uncomfortable. Therefore, I said I might replace my Retina MacBook Pro with another similar model. "Horses for courses" is irrelevant when Apple keyboards keep losing key travel generation after generation after generation. There's a history of things getting worse. That's what I was pointing out.

 

[erkanasu]

can someone on here create a product for us to order that makes it easy to change the keys out? I'll pay $50-100 for that if the keys don't get shinny.

instead of people bitching on here, lets create a solution

 

[code-m]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

That’s some confirmation bias right there that even the blind can see. You have been accustomed to your 2015 laptop keyboard and spent a brief moment at a store with the new one and decided you don’t like it. As others have mentioned it takes time to adjust, it’s like those who view ProMotion or not and decided one is better or not and for XYZ reason, your eyes and mind or in this case your fingers get used to it and it becomes normal as others have mentioned it. The human body and mind adapt relatively well and depends on the persons own beliefs on how long of a transition it takes to normalize.

What next the design is too boxy, squarish, edgy, etc? Does not run windows or whatever app you have that is not updated to be universally coded? I am sure people no had the TiBook probably thought the unibody did not compare and the PowerBook G3 crowd probably thoughT the TiBook was junk 🙄

 

[njvan-2]

I really like the keyboard on my 14" M1 Pro. And the rest of the machine...

 

[smirking]

Therefore, Apple is tasked with finding what makes a keyboard objectively good in the hopes of satisfying as many of their customers as possible.

OK, but that's not at all what you were saying before which is why you're getting such harsh responses from many people.

Yeah, Apple could have done market research and chose the path of least resistance, but you do remember that Steve Jobs was famously dismissive about customers knowing what they really wanted, right? They've never been the company that makes the safe bet. They force you to adopt USB-C. They made us ditch our floppy drives and then later our DVD drives. They also ditched just about all the ports before rethinking that decision in the M1 Pro launch.

They're always going to take a chances that could alienate even some of their biggest fans.

 

[sunapple]

You think you're funny, but Apple has increasingly shown disdain for ergonomics with their hardware. First, it was the mice. Ever since the iMac G3's puck mouse, Apple mice have received many poor reviews. And this is not a subjective matter. Their mice aren't ergonomic because they don't fit in the palm of your hand. Anyone's hands! The hands of the human beings who use Apple mice!

Keyboards are easily reviewed based on their ergonomics. However, while Apple has historically had unergonomic mice (the 2000 Pro and 2005 Mighty mice were merely "fine"), Apple keyboards have only become decreasingly ergonomic. The super short travel of their keys is as stiff as typing on concrete. Defending typing on concrete is like defending sitting on concrete furniture. Some people might enjoy it, like this guy:

“Typing on concrete” doesn’t really make sense to me. Recent keyboards like my M1 Air are super clicky. My MX Keys are very soft. I actually like both of them. Especially over some cheaper keyboards or old fashioned tall keys. So which one is more ergonomic? Is a Magic Trackpad more or less ergonomic than a Magic Mouse? Or is my MX Vertical mouse more ergonomic than a trackpad?

The correct answer with ergonomics is: it depends on the user. However a literal professional already tried to make this argument so I’m clearly talking to a concrete wall.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

A keyboard is a personal thing so I can understand someone not liking it. I've used keyboards that others have said were really good and I didn't get the same impression. My issue was saying it's somehow considered an inferior or bad keyboard. Now if we're talking about the butterfly keyboard I can see that. I've watched lots of laptop reviews and I can't think of one that said it wasn't among the best. I have the MacBook Air so it's not quite as good as the Pro keyboard. I won't say it's the best laptop keyboard I've used because I've used some nice Lenovo laptops but it's good.

With me, it’s down to “this is the keyboard I use to interact with this thing with.“ Once I acclimate to the shape and size of the arrow keys, it’s all just “keyboard” to me. I believe I only go as far as being able to tell types of keyboards apart. But, once you peg me to a specific ”type”, trying to tell the difference for me would be like someone trying to tell a difference between ALAC and a 256k music file. Some probably can feel the typing equivalence of “compressed harmonics” while I’m like “I can’t tell the difference”.

 

[ilikewhey]

You're right. The older Unibody keyboard had even more travel, which I know from personal experience. However, if I was to replace my Retina MacBook Pro, it would be with a similar model since it weighs an entire pound less than the older unibody MacBook Pro. It's remarkable how keyboards have consistently gotten worse. The Retina had the last good one.

not gonna lie my 2015 13inch was the best keyboard on a laptop for me, however i have grown rather fond of my 14inch, it just takes a little bit to get used to.

 

[jwdsail]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

While noticeably better than the butterfly KB in terms of travel feel, it doesn't come close to the 2015 or even the 2012 non-retina KB design?

The 2012 design was probably the high point in terms of KB travel/feel, system repairability/upgradability... Could have just kept improving the screen and processors in that case design and made many people much happier over the years than what we got.

Oh well.

apple.com/feedback

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Could have just kept improving the screen and processors in that case design and made many people much happier over the years than what we got.

Thing is, the JCPenney model, where you just tweak yesterday’s stuff, only works for as long as those people are alive, which is what JCPenney is finding out.

 

[Danfango]

All the people bitching in here should have to suffer a Dell 7670 keyboard for a bit. So they could market the thing as a mega laptop, they put a full size keyboard on it. But whoever photocopied the design from something sensible, shrank it and all the keys. It is now only suitable for use by hobbits and marmosets. They also seemed to fill the entire laptop with rubber bands and sand.

I have got to the point I just RDP into it from my Mac.

 

[wildaman]

not gonna lie my 2015 13inch was the best keyboard on a laptop for me, however i have grown rather fond of my 14inch, it just takes a little bit to get used to.

yup I have a 16" m1 pro and it's a fine keyboard but I still have my 2014 13" mbp and I prefer that keyboard. (and trackpad in some ways, but that's not for this thread)

 

[Mcdevidr]

5 Pages to understand why someone wants to stay with decade old tech because of a keyboard feel. Look im a pianist i feel keys for a living. The new keyboards are better to me than the 2015. To each their own but really I wouldn’t stay on tech that is a decade old for a keyboard.

 

[turbineseaplane]

5 Pages to understand why someone wants to stay with decade old tech because of a keyboard feel. Look im a pianist i feel keys for a living. The new keyboards are better to me than the 2015. To each their own but really I wouldn’t stay on tech that is a decade old for a keyboard.

Something oddly ironic about this comment ... from a pianist 😂

 

[boss.king]

I’ve used the pre-butterfly keyboards, the butterfly ones, and the current ones, and I think the latest ones are by far the best. Pre-butterfly comes in second for me, and butteryfly ranks only slightly above not having a keyboard at all.

 

[MNGR]

I use different keyboards depending on which machine I'm using. With my Windows PC, I use an EVGA keyboard using silent speed switches with low key travel. I also have a Logitech MX Keys for Mac that I use with both my iPad Pro and iPhone, which has a completely different feel from either the EVGA keyboard or the MBP keyboard. I'll probably also use the MX Keys with this MBP when I'm using it in a docked mode, but when out and about the built-in keyboard works just fine for my needs.

I think it’s what you get used to. I can use almost anything (and have since the late 60's). HP, DEC, IBM, Atari 1200xl (in the attic now), and a whole bunch of Apple external keyboards since the MAC ii to the current MB2 pro being delivered next week. It is all what you personally like and are comfortable with.

 

[JustAnExpat]

I have a MacBook Air M1. I had a MacBook Air 2015/2017 (non-"butterfly") before I sold after after I purchased the MacBook Air M1. Both the keyboards felt exactly the same to me.

A mechanical keyboard will always feel better than a laptop keyboard. But Apple hasn't changed the keyboard at all.

 

[HouseLannister]

Most laptop keyboards are hot trash. Not enough travel and not enough feedback. The MacBook feels like I am typing on my iPad screen. To me, the Magic Keyboard on my iPad feels nicer. The MBP 2021-2023 is a much more reliable keyboard compared to the butterfly ones, but it is a long way from a good feel (IMHO).

The ThinkPads mentioned in this thread were good, but even they are going with less travel on their newest gens and aren‘t as great as older generations (which have other trade offs like bad screen quality and awful webcams).

The Cherry MX Ultra low profile in the Alienware laptops that were mentioned is pretty nice, but it is a linear switch. There is a new MX ULP tactile in the Corsair's K100 Air keyboard that I hope makes it into some laptops. The extra feedback for each keystroke makes typing on shallow keys much easier. That would be my ideal laptop keyboard.

 

[ahurst]

I think 100% everyone will agree that the M1/M2 keyboards are better than the Butterfly before it.

But those who used the unibody keyboards from 2008-2015 will realise they were even better.

But those who used the aluminium PowerBook and MacBook keyboards from 2003-2006 prefer those more.

Personally, I like the current non-butterfly MBP keyboard way more than the old 2008-2015 chiclet ones: the keys on those wiggle around a ton with your fingers resting on them, whereas I find the current design to feel much more solid and tactile.

Still think the 12” PowerBook G4 has my favorite Apple laptop keyboard of all time though, tied maybe with the clicky mechanical-style board on the PowerBook 1400cs. Not holding my breath on the return of non-chiclet scissor switch keyboards though, even Lenovo ditched their legendary design for notably-worse chiclets in ~2013...

 

[infinitejest]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - the 2019 16 inch was the goat when it came to design and the keyboard.
Too bad the cooling system was terrible.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - the 2019 16 inch was the goat when it came to design and the keyboard.
Too bad the cooling system was terrible.

Well, that’s the cooling system that was designed for what Intel SAID they were going to ship.

 

[257Loner]

All the people bitching in here should have to suffer a Dell 7670 keyboard for a bit. So they could market the thing as a mega laptop, they put a full size keyboard on it. But whoever photocopied the design from something sensible, shrank it and all the keys. It is now only suitable for use by hobbits and marmosets. They also seemed to fill the entire laptop with rubber bands and sand.

I have got to the point I just RDP into it from my Mac.

Your blasé response is incomprehensible. You might as well show disdain for furniture shoppers complaining about stiff furniture. The keyboard is the #1 tool humans use to interact with their computers. It's where all the joy of using a computer comes from. All the "high-tech" silicon Apple shoves into their laptop cases accomplishes the same tasks as yesteryear: internet/email/contacts/calendar, productivity software, widgets like calc and dictionary, and iLife apps like Music and Photos. The big differences from one MacBook experience to another really comes down to the screen and keyboard. If the keyboard is worse, the joy of using a computer is worse. If you were a computer lover, I'd expect you to acknowledge that.

 

[Danfango]

Your blasé response is incomprehensible. You might as well show disdain for furniture shoppers complaining about stiff furniture. The keyboard is the #1 tool humans use to interact with their computers. It's where all the joy of using a computer comes from. All the "high-tech" silicon Apple shoves into their laptop cases accomplishes the same tasks as yesteryear: internet/email/contacts/calendar, productivity software, widgets like calc and dictionary, and iLife apps like Music and Photos. The big differences from one MacBook experience to another really comes down to the screen and keyboard. If the keyboard is worse, the joy of using a computer is worse. If you were a computer lover, I'd expect you to acknowledge that.

Lets first clarify I'm not a computer lover. They are frustrating incomprehensible lumps of pain and misery which inflict themselves upon me daily and want to make me move to a wooden shack in some forest and make "hrmph" noises a lot. This is a curse because my day job is sitting in front of them knocking out code all day and has been for the last 30 years.

What I want is reduced friction and rarely does that come into question on a keyboard. Every keyboard sucks for the first few weeks you use it. The subtle differences in pressure, audible feedback, key rocking, travel and layout are mostly moot after that time. The default thing people do is to start hating something right away because of one tiny attribute which has no measurable outcome.

There are some horrendous ones out there though which barely match the description of "keyboard" and I was outlining the distinction between those ones and the MacBook ones which are all quite ok in the scale of things.

Honestly my favourite keyboard is basically Cherry's recentish low profile SX switch Stream series, particularly the TKL variety. They just copied the old Lenovo/IBM T-series keyboards and used a standard full size layout. Job done. But I'm happy, as long as it's not that ****ing Dell one and as long as it has all the keys it is supposed to have on it.

 

[TechnoMonk]

I think it’s what you get used to. I can use almost anything (and have since the late 60's). HP, DEC, IBM, Atari 1200xl (in the attic now), and a whole bunch of Apple external keyboards since the MAC ii to the current MB2 pro being delivered next week. It is all what you personally like and are comfortable with.

Pretty much this for me. I am more used to my M1 Max 16 inch KB now. I still use my MacBook Pro 2014 as media server, typing on it feels wiggly compared to my M1. Either ways it’s not a deal breaker for me, unless the keys start falling off.

 

[Ethosik]

I am quite particular about my keyboards. In fact the only keyboard I really enjoy is the Logitech G910. I have actually purchased 10 of these throughout the years and I recently ordered another one as they are starting to get harder to find on order. The new ones are not as good.

In general, I pretty much despise ALL LAPTOP keyboards I have tried from the Dells, HPs, and Macs I have used. Now the new Macbook Pros definitely have better keyboards than the butterfly ones.