So what you're saying is your personal experience with 5 MacBooks is an accurate representation of the tens of millions of MacBook Pros in use. Got it.
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Yes, your MacBook Pro is running too hot, and yes, it is Apple's fault.
- Thread starter Doward
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Unfortunate, but true. I wish Apple would invest just a bit more to micropolish their heatsinks, and apply an appropriate amount of heatsink compound.
Out of curiosity, when you re-applied the paste, did you notice if there was too much paste originally applied? Would be interested, since you have had a wide range of Macbooks
So what you're saying is your personal experience with 5 MacBooks is an accurate representation of the tens of millions of MacBook Pros in use. Got it.
Iam saying, that is pretty good background for myself and at least I have showed some evidence. And because you seem not to help and only ram evidences like this, it seems you are denying it and/or don't know what to do, or tell me why that happens.
Or can you tell me, why is it happening? Just extreme bad luck?
I have a friend in Apple store, who I can with test temperatures on their MacBooks there. I will love to post the results, when I have it.
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Unfortunate, but true. I wish Apple would invest just a bit more to micropolish their heatsinks, and apply an appropriate amount of heatsink compound.
Out of curiosity, when you re-applied the paste, did you notice if there was too much paste originally applied? Would be interested, since you have had a wide range of Macbooks
There was definitely more than necessary, but never a HUGE blob around CPU or GPU. But some paste squeezed out, more than when I do thermal paste application, definitely yes. I would say two times more, than necessary, eyeballed.
Heatsinks have very rough surface.
For every example you post of MacBooks that you claim have overheating problems, there are countless more examples of people who report no such problems, even though they are aware of their temps and push their Macs to the limit. As I stated earlier in this thread and others, some Macs may, indeed, have these problems, but it is false and misleading to suggest that ALL MacBook models have a problem with overheating, because they clearly do not.
But I never said that ALL have this problem. I wanted to point out, that there are Macs, that do and as it seems, there are probably more than just few.
Any ideas what causes it, why this happens, what to do? Apple claimed, that everything was okay with my Macs, when I tried to have them repaired.
Yes, that fact has been established in this thread before you resurrected it.
As Apple sells over a million Macs per month, it's reasonable to expect a small percentage of them will have manufacturing defects or flaws.
You saw why it happens - the rough heatsink machining combined with entirely too much heatsink compound = less than optimal thermal transfer from die to heatsink, so the die heats up more than necessary.
I was doing a "spring" cleanup on my MBP Mid-2007 and from inside, there was not much dust, just little as it had a new mainboard replacement in 2011. I decided to do the heatsink paste as mine was running quite hot.
After cleaning the heatsinks and then do the 'heatsink' tint as per instruction by Arctic Silver but instead using lint-free cloth to remove excessive AS 5 from CPU heatsink, I used the plastic card and scraped the excessive off and there was remaining paste was left in the middle, which means the CPU heatsink has slight 'dent' on it. No matter how hard or how many times or directions I tried to remove it, the paste just stays in the centre. I did not have this 'dent' on GPU and chipset heatsinks though. Could it have caused by years of excessive heat from CPU?
I have been using Macbook Pro 2007 for over 6 years now and it is still my first Mac computer. I had repaired and serviced computers for years so I do have some experiences. Here is my few thoughts on MBP:
Macbook Pro body is made of aluminum and we all know already that aluminum is a great heat conductor. However, when the MBP is running hot, aluminum is more uncomfortable to touch/feel than plastic one and that's one of the main drawbacks of using aluminmum laptop, be it Mac or PC. When it's hot, it feels hot and bothered! At times, it felt like handling or typing on a hot water bottle!
If aluminum is a great heat conductor, the heat from CPU would have dissipated easily through the heatsinks in contact with aluminmum body but why were we seeing such a high temperature figures in comparision with similar specced but cooler plastic-body laptops? Even plastic-body laptops have just one fan!
I believe it is more of insufficient cooling design, mainly a lack of inlet vents and when I was taking apart my MBP, there is no air inlets for the fans to draw external air in to cool the heatsink so it would have the draw the air from somewhere in its own enclosure and enclosure itself being aluminum!! This is exactly what happens when you block the cooling inlet vent and as a result of this, PC laptop heats up easily but all I have to do is to clear the inlet vent. So would drilling some holes on Macbook Pro help?
Every time a new generation of intel CPUs come out with smaller die and I thought 'Great, Macbook Pro would runs cooler with this one' but then, Apple has moved their own goalposts...by making their Macbook Pro and iMac to be even more thinner!
FYI, I repaired 2009 or 2010 iMac and it was choked full of dusts which builds up the heat in no time. I had to clean it twice for my friends over the course of few years and it's not good considering its age. Overheating in an enclosure with poor ventilation can cause all kind of problems. Their DVD drive cable failed and a failed harddrive probably due to overheating. While taking it apart, I noticed that there is a small air inlet, which is a ram slot cover on the bottom of iMac and if the inlet is small then it doesn't take long to be clogged up with dusts again...and also on outlet vent on the back centre of iMac, again it is small and clogged up with dusts as well.
Last year, Apple comes out with a much thinner and newly designed iMac (2012) and a PC Pro magazine were commenting on it about it reaching 100 C easily - http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/desktops/378763/apple-imac-21-5in/2 and that's not good considering it is a brand new and all it needs a few speck of dusts to overheat easily! Google it and you will see some people complaining about how hot their iMac is, even in sleeping mode!
To sum it up, I do not like the direction the Apple is heading, especially them being obessed with trying to make their portable more thinner. After seeing some cooling design issues and poor heatsink machining as pointed out by Doward, it is hard to image how I would spend ££££ on MBP running hotter than normally is for plastic body laptops. Aluminum body should put them a cooling advantage over plastic one but so far, it seems they haven't taken advantage of that.
I am not bothered at all with how thick my 2007 MBP is as long as it fits in my messenger bag but why the need to go ahead to make them more thinner and coupled them with powerful CPUs which might be throttled back?
Laptop PC is looking more appealing for a few reasons - They are cheap, cheeful and runs cooler.
After cleaning the heatsinks and then do the 'heatsink' tint as per instruction by Arctic Silver but instead using lint-free cloth to remove excessive AS 5 from CPU heatsink, I used the plastic card and scraped the excessive off and there was remaining paste was left in the middle, which means the CPU heatsink has slight 'dent' on it. No matter how hard or how many times or directions I tried to remove it, the paste just stays in the centre. I did not have this 'dent' on GPU and chipset heatsinks though. Could it have caused by years of excessive heat from CPU?
I have been using Macbook Pro 2007 for over 6 years now and it is still my first Mac computer. I had repaired and serviced computers for years so I do have some experiences. Here is my few thoughts on MBP:
Macbook Pro body is made of aluminum and we all know already that aluminum is a great heat conductor. However, when the MBP is running hot, aluminum is more uncomfortable to touch/feel than plastic one and that's one of the main drawbacks of using aluminmum laptop, be it Mac or PC. When it's hot, it feels hot and bothered! At times, it felt like handling or typing on a hot water bottle!
If aluminum is a great heat conductor, the heat from CPU would have dissipated easily through the heatsinks in contact with aluminmum body but why were we seeing such a high temperature figures in comparision with similar specced but cooler plastic-body laptops? Even plastic-body laptops have just one fan!
I believe it is more of insufficient cooling design, mainly a lack of inlet vents and when I was taking apart my MBP, there is no air inlets for the fans to draw external air in to cool the heatsink so it would have the draw the air from somewhere in its own enclosure and enclosure itself being aluminum!! This is exactly what happens when you block the cooling inlet vent and as a result of this, PC laptop heats up easily but all I have to do is to clear the inlet vent. So would drilling some holes on Macbook Pro help?
Every time a new generation of intel CPUs come out with smaller die and I thought 'Great, Macbook Pro would runs cooler with this one' but then, Apple has moved their own goalposts...by making their Macbook Pro and iMac to be even more thinner!
FYI, I repaired 2009 or 2010 iMac and it was choked full of dusts which builds up the heat in no time. I had to clean it twice for my friends over the course of few years and it's not good considering its age. Overheating in an enclosure with poor ventilation can cause all kind of problems. Their DVD drive cable failed and a failed harddrive probably due to overheating. While taking it apart, I noticed that there is a small air inlet, which is a ram slot cover on the bottom of iMac and if the inlet is small then it doesn't take long to be clogged up with dusts again...and also on outlet vent on the back centre of iMac, again it is small and clogged up with dusts as well.
Last year, Apple comes out with a much thinner and newly designed iMac (2012) and a PC Pro magazine were commenting on it about it reaching 100 C easily - http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/desktops/378763/apple-imac-21-5in/2 and that's not good considering it is a brand new and all it needs a few speck of dusts to overheat easily! Google it and you will see some people complaining about how hot their iMac is, even in sleeping mode!
To sum it up, I do not like the direction the Apple is heading, especially them being obessed with trying to make their portable more thinner. After seeing some cooling design issues and poor heatsink machining as pointed out by Doward, it is hard to image how I would spend ££££ on MBP running hotter than normally is for plastic body laptops. Aluminum body should put them a cooling advantage over plastic one but so far, it seems they haven't taken advantage of that.
I am not bothered at all with how thick my 2007 MBP is as long as it fits in my messenger bag but why the need to go ahead to make them more thinner and coupled them with powerful CPUs which might be throttled back?
Laptop PC is looking more appealing for a few reasons - They are cheap, cheeful and runs cooler.
There are inlet vents, located at the back of the Mac notebooks, near the hinge. Both the inlet and outlet vents are located there, except on new retina models where the inlet vents are on the sides.
Thanks for pointing this out. I was looking at some Ifixit photos to see the pictures of the vents and now I can see how it would work.
It is a bit unusual to have both inlet and outlet vents on the same side, with screen hinge in the way. Not very effective and I don't think it would work as well as the ones with separate inlet vents.
But then, it seems Apple may have designed it to be this way, to run hot but many people reported issues otherwise.
So what you're saying is your personal experience with 5 MacBooks is an accurate representation of the tens of millions of MacBook Pros in use. Got it.
I just stumbled upon this wonderful gem of a thread. As someone who used to put together server systems (yeah Opterons, baby!) and witnessed just what an incredible difference the materials and thermal paste application can make in CPU temperatures, I have to comment on the logic you've been using here since the beginning.
Your argument, summed up, is that a few anecdotal reports of problems are not enough to suggest there is an issue, since many/most/the vast majority of laptops don't experience problems. That logic is fundamentally flawed.
I could do a logic walk-through on why this doesn't make sense, but use of an analogy/metaphor may be easier for people to wrap their heads around. Imagine a relatively rare disease in the populationsay, something that on average affects 0.5%. There are certain behaviors that make a person more likely to contract that disease, and certain behaviors that make a person less likely to contract that disease. Bad behaviors raise the incidence to 1%; good behaviors lower it to 0.1%. A rigorous study shows the effects to be statistically significant.
As you can see, the fact that between 99.9% and 99.0% of the population aren't afflicted by the disease is an irrelevant statistic. In our case, the "good behaviors" are proper materials usage and thermal compound application. The "bad behaviors" are things that push the CPU and/or GPU hard and for extended periods of timesomething that only a subset of users do.
You could argue that in this case, we don't have the empirical data to support the OP's conclusions about failure, and that would be correct. (There are studies out there, but I don't want to get on that tangent.) However, the above should demonstrate how badly flawed the logic you've been using is. Just as you are right to critique the use of anecdotal reports of failures as poor evidence (especially when the cause of the failure is difficult to ascertain), that same critique also indicts your argument about most users not having problems.
Ok, if I miss any of your questions, please let me know.
1) Dent in CPU - a) CPU dies are not laser-flat, and b) neither are credit cards. I wouldn't worry about a tiny bit being left. Ideally, you want just enough heatsink compound to fill the space between the die and heatsink, and you are seeing that.
2) Aluminum is a better conductor than plastic, for sure. Just because the chassis is aluminum, however, heat is not directly conducted from the heatsinks to the chassis - there is a bit of air between the heatsink / fan and the chassis. You can't consider the aluminum as an additional 'heatsink' for removing thermal energy.
3) Your work with iMacs, however, does show some of the issue - optimum thermal transfer is achieved when a) the processor die is able to transfer as much heat as possible to the heatsink, b) the heatsink is able to transfer that thermal energy into the air-stream (assuming actively cooled), and c) the air is effectively exhausted from the system.
My work shows that A/B can be notably increased in efficiency (lapping + paste). Unfortunately, C is not the greatest on Apple's products.
4) Thickness isn't an issue for a properly designed heatsink system. As long as the thermal energy is evacuated correctly, all is well. Apple's issue isn't design, it's manufacturing, that I've seen.
Uh... Failure is only a part of it. Having warmer components leads to less power efficiency and shorter component life.
Also, on an individual basis, there are many reports of users laptops shutting down when they get too hot (a failsafe in the mobo). Yes, no component failure, but pretty annoying and not a good idea over the long term!
It also means you can't use your laptop in warmer environments.
This guy got a 30 degree F (~15C) drop just by reassembling his computer properly.
This is not so much to ask Apple to do. My gaming PC is more thoughtfully assembled (if I do say so myself) and people are paying much more for these machines. I just hope Apple did a better job with my 2013 rMBP
I was really enjoying some of the posts in this thread, specially the ones with the images and videos people post. I really love to tinker with my laptops and electronics in general.
But...the latest posts are really boring, it has turned into a discussion about who is right - as in the smartest -. This is really entertaining to read in a "debate" kind of environment...but the post was not about it.
What I mean is that the conversation is deformed by another topic wich involves the next idea -> what does the word problem means.
Obviously for the OP the temperatures of his aquired product and other products he serviced are "too hot" (respecting the wording) and facing that problem (at least in his comprehension) he is offering a solution (that comes with a perspective, since a solution comes in hand with a problem).
And for others (like GGJStudios) it is not a problem.
The word problem revolves around a lot of presumptions. This presumptions are not always meet by everyone, yet it doesn't mean the problem doesn't or the problem does exist. It means that this presumptions are within the subject comprehension of the scenario.
BOTH sides have already made their point clear on wich things constitute the base of their assumptions on the matter.
Can we continue the OTHER topics on this conversation? (like if this have changed in the latest models, or the impact the solution represent in more scenarios). I'm just asking for some contributing and entertaining stuff, but in the end is up to your liberty what to do (wether it is keep arguing until you're satisfied or let it be).
Cheers! and relax a little, there is little more to contribute to make a clearer point...but that is just my opinion, be free to act as you wish.
But...the latest posts are really boring, it has turned into a discussion about who is right - as in the smartest -. This is really entertaining to read in a "debate" kind of environment...but the post was not about it.
What I mean is that the conversation is deformed by another topic wich involves the next idea -> what does the word problem means.
Obviously for the OP the temperatures of his aquired product and other products he serviced are "too hot" (respecting the wording) and facing that problem (at least in his comprehension) he is offering a solution (that comes with a perspective, since a solution comes in hand with a problem).
And for others (like GGJStudios) it is not a problem.
The word problem revolves around a lot of presumptions. This presumptions are not always meet by everyone, yet it doesn't mean the problem doesn't or the problem does exist. It means that this presumptions are within the subject comprehension of the scenario.
BOTH sides have already made their point clear on wich things constitute the base of their assumptions on the matter.
Can we continue the OTHER topics on this conversation? (like if this have changed in the latest models, or the impact the solution represent in more scenarios). I'm just asking for some contributing and entertaining stuff, but in the end is up to your liberty what to do (wether it is keep arguing until you're satisfied or let it be).
Cheers! and relax a little, there is little more to contribute to make a clearer point...but that is just my opinion, be free to act as you wish.
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Actually it is the heatsink (which is for CPU) that is 'dented' in the centre, not CPU die.
If I were to make it flat, would it take far more than just lapping it?
Ok I got it, the base of my MBP was used to be very hot which gaves the the wrong impression. Now it is just warm, that is probably why I was being paranoid as I was thinking I didn't do the paste job probably. All is fine then.
I was trying to say if Apple's manufacturers continue to make poor machining heatsinks and if it is to continue this way, it is a bit daft to make their computers thinner without fixing their machining quality first.
Yes, and in that case, I would recommend against it. Without knowing exactly how much would need to be lapped or milled, there's no way of ensuring you have proper contact clamping force.
barnettgs said:Ok I got it, the base of my MBP was used to be very hot which gaves the the wrong impression. Now it is just warm, that is probably why I was being paranoid as I was thinking I didn't do the paste job probably. All is fine then.
I was trying to say if Apple's manufacturers continue to make poor machining heatsinks and if it is to continue this way, it is a bit daft to make their computers thinner without fixing their machining quality first.
Agree 100%, and we all see how that has turned out so far.
I haven't read through this thread... But I am curious, did anyone try to lap their heatsinks?
I understand the need of smooth heatsinks, but isn't heat removal also about cumulative heat energy instead of instantaneous transfer?
I understand the need of smooth heatsinks, but isn't heat removal also about cumulative heat energy instead of instantaneous transfer?
Yes, I lapped mine when I did the work. Wasn't even a huge lapping, just a quick cut and polish.
It's all about how efficiently you can remove thermal energy from the source, and deposit into a heat exchanger (and further exchange that energy into some other medium)
When using iStat Menu, which sensor accurately reports the CPU temperature? Is it CPU Die - Digital? Separately, is the Palm Rest temperature accurate? The Palm Rest feels hotter on the surface -- but I'm not sure if it's because of the heat my palms generate.
The CPU Die is the temp of the CPU die - that's the hottest point of the CPU.
Okay, so I have a MacBook Pro 13" Mid 2010 model with an Intel Core 2 Duo at 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, and a 750GB HD. I obtained the same Shin Etsu Microsi thermal compound that Apple uses as I'm an ACMT. I applied it the correct way (little dot method) and had the heatsink spread it out. Yes the grease is more of a clay and hardens into a stiffer clay like material over time allowing it to be removed in pieces rather than remain a grease. I can report that even with those properties, Shin Etsu grease is actually not that bad compared to the fancier greases you can purchase today.
I do not have any data from my old Apple applied grease, but my mother's computer with the same specs and Apple's application of grease runs just about the same. I will have to get measurements from that sometime and post them in this thread.
Anyhow I did some testing and the results are below. The current thermal grease on my computer was applied about 2 years ago, so it isn't new. I have some Arctic Cooling MX-4 in the mail and will apply and repeat the tests and post the results. AC MX-4 is suppose to be better than Arctic Silver 5, so I will find out.
Shin Etsu stock thermal grease
Idle: 97ºF/36ºC
Fans: 1999 rpm
_____
Web Browsing, no flash
110ºF/43ºC
Fans: 1999 rpm
_____
yes > /dev /null in two terminal windows (100% CPU)
after 2 minutes
187ºF/86ºC
Fans: 3356 rpm
after 20 minutes
176ºF/80ºC
Fans: 5051 rpm
_______________
Room Temp: 65ºF/18ºC
I do not have any data from my old Apple applied grease, but my mother's computer with the same specs and Apple's application of grease runs just about the same. I will have to get measurements from that sometime and post them in this thread.
Anyhow I did some testing and the results are below. The current thermal grease on my computer was applied about 2 years ago, so it isn't new. I have some Arctic Cooling MX-4 in the mail and will apply and repeat the tests and post the results. AC MX-4 is suppose to be better than Arctic Silver 5, so I will find out.
Shin Etsu stock thermal grease
Idle: 97ºF/36ºC
Fans: 1999 rpm
_____
Web Browsing, no flash
110ºF/43ºC
Fans: 1999 rpm
_____
yes > /dev /null in two terminal windows (100% CPU)
after 2 minutes
187ºF/86ºC
Fans: 3356 rpm
after 20 minutes
176ºF/80ºC
Fans: 5051 rpm
_______________
Room Temp: 65ºF/18ºC
Aluminum is a good thermal conductor - you will feel the heat from the CPU through the aluminum.
Cooler CPU yields cooler case yields less burning of your hands/legs/face/wherever you use your Macbook Pro.