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U.S. Mac Sales Grow 28.5% in Holiday Quarter, PC Market Suffers Worst Decline Ever [Updated]

Digital Skunk said:
I wouldn't even go as far as to say that it's Windows 8 that's causing the decline. I am using a Dell Venue 8 Pro now and it's the best tablet experience I've ever had hands down. Better than an iPad or Android tablet.

Windows 8 functions as advertised, the app selection is a moot point, and Windows has gotten Apple beat by a mile in terms of being able to switch into and out of a fully touch or mouse and board UX/UI. Even with dual displays plugged into an 8" tablet I can get a touch UI on one screen and a full desktop experience on the other. The machine runs Photoshop without a hitch while running other light apps. I've coded websites and made GFX in Illustrator. Lightroom, and it's hungry hippo self, runs decently, but don't load up the library.

Then there's games, where Civ 5 does a fantastic job both in the touch and desktop UI.

Now the hardware . . . . . that's another story. I've already had three Dell related hardware glitches with this thing that the normal user wouldn't have been able to recover from.



I don't even think there will be too many Macs.

The way things are going in the high end market, which usually trickles down to the average user, everything is moving to zero client. Where the grunt of the work is handled by servers that just stream pixels to end users. The 48 core 256GB of RAM servers that Dell and HP make are far better at handling any task you can throw at them.

Soon, even the laptop will be a novelty.
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Isn't it amazing how history repeats itself? From terminals to terminals.

Personally I really like the concept and idea of Surface Pro. I think the idea is brilliant! One small device that can do touch when you're on the go and when you're at home, you can have it docked to a larger monitor and use it as a desktop OS.

If Windows 8 had been executed much better(I hate side scrolling paradigm personally), it would've sold very well.

Maybe with Windows 9 Microsoft will fix it and by that time Surface Pro should be very powerful as well and hopefully fanless.
 
Daalseth said:
Absolutely. I set up a users Win8 home system a few weeks ago and did my best to teach him how to use it. It's an all in one HP system with both mouse/keyboard and a touch screen. The m/kb and touch interfaces are a confusing mishmash and the user hates it. I've got tiles and taskbar links to his critical programs and he still gets lost in GUI hell where he isn't sure what to do. He hasn't figured out how to close a program window (though I've told him a couple of times) or put it in the background so he's force quitting apps when he can't get rid of them. Everything wants to open full screen and then he doesn't know where to go to open another app or how to get back to the desktop. The result is that he can't run more than one app at a time (yes I know it is possible but he can't figure out how to make it work). He's very unhappy with MS and HP for selling him "this POS computer". Last I heard he was slowly migrating back to his ancient XP box because he knows how to make it do what he wants.

I was thinking what would I do if Apple were to disappear today. If there were no MacOS any more and I had to run something else:...I'd build a PC running LinuxMint.

Yes Virginia, Windows8 is that bad.
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Yes, this is exactly what I am talking about. Win 8 is the problem. No one can figure it out, because it is not logical. Your friend is going through what several of my family members are going through and what my clients go through. No one likes it. MS can only do the opposite of Apple/Google/BB/WebOS, since they are last to market with a (current gen) Mobile OS. If MS was smart they would have launched Win 8 style on their tablets only, before absorbing the mess into their entire eco system.
 
Cod3rror said:
Isn't it amazing how history repeats itself? From terminals to terminals.

Personally I really like the concept and idea of Surface Pro. I think the idea is brilliant! One small device that can do touch when you're on the go and when you're at home, you can have it docked to a larger monitor and use it as a desktop OS.

If Windows 8 had been executed much better(I hate side scrolling paradigm personally), it would've sold very well.

Maybe with Windows 9 Microsoft will fix it and by that time Surface Pro should be very powerful as well and hopefully fanless.
Click to expand...

Yes! Now that you mention it I hated configuring the Start screen when I got Win8.
 
Renzatic said:
In computer terms, 15 years is the coming and going of a dinosaur age.

edit: I'll also add being able to stream 4k content is a lot closer than you think. We'll assume that a 2 hour Blu-Ray quality movie is about 30GB. You could stream that on a 34 Mbps connection. Now we'll assume again that 4k movies are roughly 4x the size, or 120GB per 2 hours. To be able to stream that, you'd have to have a 133 Mbps internet connection.

That's high, but not 15 years away high. I've got fiber running to my house, and I could access 100 Mbps just by calling up my telco and asking for it. On top of that, Google and a bunch of other companies are already experimenting with gigabit fiber in a few select cities. So the bandwidth needed to stream 4k isn't all that far away. I'd say in a year or two, most cities will have access to that much bandwidth, and in about 4-6 years, it'll be widely available and affordable.
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If only they would just let us use USB 2.0 for the coming 4K monitors instead of requiring us to these crazy and completely unnecessary 20GB/sec wiremajiggies... :rolleyes:
 
I wish someone would sort out the RELEVANCE of year over year, before publishing these reports. In this case, it appears this quarter last year, everyone was holding off their purchases because new iMacs were "out" but there wasn't any stock.

I suppose raw numbers are helpful, how many and percentage of the market, compared to other manufacturers. If you can trust the numbers at all, as they're research estimates, not reported sales (and let's not get into sales to channels vs actual customers).

Year over year really only works for laundry detergent or cola, which is bought THROUGHOUT the year, but has some kind of seasonal demand, so that month over month isn't very indicative.

As for Windows 8, being awful has never really hurt Windows sales - they've had 90% or better, no matter how bad the experience. Hardware trends like netbooks, smart phones, iPads and tablets seem to have more influence over Windows sales, than how bad the Windows is this year. It's always been bad and going to be better next time… and somehow people keep buying hoping things will improve, despite the track record.

Most 'ordinary' Windows users do seem befuddled by the Metro interface, and frankly, when I try one in the store, I have no idea how to get it to work. I've had users ask me how to quit a programme and if Alt-F4 didn't work, I wouldn't have been able to help them.

Which leads us to one reason Android might be so popular, a lot of people just hate change. It takes them so long to learn anything, even slight changes drive them crazy. With Android, you buy it with one OS and it never gets updated. I'd argue, the majority of users see that as a plus, not a minus.

The contracting PC market is just as funny, to me. How many people bought PCs when they didn't need all the functionality?
 
sguser said:
Indeed. I've been Windows user for 15 years. I've switched to Mac OS X and I couldn't have been happier.
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i jumped ship when Windows Vista came out. Like you, i could not have been happier to leave.

But then again i still use SGI IRIX
 
Tiger8 said:
This is all Windows 8 at play, ladies and gents.
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Considering previous quarters (when the W8 situation was worse) - had several months with Apple doing almost as badly as the market average (and far behind several other OEMs) not really.

This quarter is solely spurred by the refreshes of their hardware.
 
Renzatic said:
In computer terms, 15 years is the coming and going of a dinosaur age.

edit: I'll also add being able to stream 4k content is a lot closer than you think. We'll assume that a 2 hour Blu-Ray quality movie is about 30GB. You could stream that on a 34 Mbps connection. Now we'll assume again that 4k movies are roughly 4x the size, or 120GB per 2 hours. To be able to stream that, you'd have to have a 133 Mbps internet connection.

That's high, but not 15 years away high. I've got fiber running to my house, and I could access 100 Mbps just by calling up my telco and asking for it. On top of that, Google and a bunch of other companies are already experimenting with gigabit fiber in a few select cities. So the bandwidth needed to stream 4k isn't all that far away. I'd say in a year or two, most cities will have access to that much bandwidth, and in about 4-6 years, it'll be widely available and affordable.
Click to expand...

Connection is only part of the equation. I can't watch Amazon Prime Instant Video in HD on my stable 100Mbps connection because of the sound hiccups. In addition to connection you also need server bandwidth. Besides, think about the following. To play uncompressed 4K movie on your BR player you'll eventually need a $100 device and $2 (cost to manufacture) optical disk. We are not there yet but in year it might be the case. Alternatively, you can do it
with some (severe) compression using, say, $100 ATV, router, cable modem, Comcast infrastructure and, say, Amazon's servers at the total cost (per customer) of how much? $2000?
 
Eidorian said:
I haven't seen the need to buy a new desktop in 4 years and while I want to replace my Macbook, Apple somehow manages took make each new generation less desirable.
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I would not go that far, but its only post Mavericks that my 2009 MacBook Pro is starting to feel a bit tired. I'm more tempted to replace my one year old iPad (16G is not quite enough).
 
Renzatic said:
In computer terms, 15 years is the coming and going of a dinosaur age.

edit: I'll also add being able to stream 4k content is a lot closer than you think. We'll assume that a 2 hour Blu-Ray quality movie is about 30GB. You could stream that on a 34 Mbps connection. Now we'll assume again that 4k movies are roughly 4x the size, or 120GB per 2 hours. To be able to stream that, you'd have to have a 133 Mbps internet connection.

That's high, but not 15 years away high. I've got fiber running to my house, and I could access 100 Mbps just by calling up my telco and asking for it. On top of that, Google and a bunch of other companies are already experimenting with gigabit fiber in a few select cities. So the bandwidth needed to stream 4k isn't all that far away. I'd say in a year or two, most cities will have access to that much bandwidth, and in about 4-6 years, it'll be widely available and affordable.
Click to expand...

Streaming 4K is very close. I was talking about complete cloud computing where all you have at home is an input device and a screen.

And I don't think 15 years is that long even when considering computers. 15 years ago I had a 300 Mhz G3 with a dedicated graphics card. Nothing different than what I have today. It's the same technology, but faster.
 
Renzatic said:
I'll admit that MS loves burying stuff underneath stuff which is underneath more stuff, and they have an even bigger thing for hiding stuff in plain sight, like it's an easter egg just waiting to be discovered. But most of the changes to Windows 8 are literally stuff you only have to be shown once to figure out, and you'll never forget about it again. I mean all the settings and everything are all tucked into the bottom left corner.
Click to expand...

I think Windows 8 has moved lots of things from "hidden in plain sight" to "hidden". This doesn't make much difference to actual usability because people can't find it anyway. It changes the attitude of people: If I show them things that are "hidden in plain sight" they say "Oh well, I was stupid for not seeing it". If I uncover things that were plain hidden they say "Windows 8 hid it, I hate Windows 8". And there's a problem if they ask me, experienced Mac user, for help. I often find things that are hidden in plain sight, but I don't find things that are hidden. And not everyone can use Google.

Renzatic said:
So could it be better? Hell yeah, it could. Win 8.1 went a fair way fixing it, but it still has more ways to go. And hell, the settings menu is obtuse even at the best of times.

But is it an unusable mess? No, it's not. You just gotta learn literally a couple new things.
Click to expand...

People don't want to learn. As a result, they hate Windows 8. One problem that Microsoft has is that for an experienced Windows 7 user, it's easier to use MacOS X than to use Windows 8. Which is probably one explanation for Mac sales growth. The argument "if I buy a Mac I'll have to re-learn everything" isn't valid anymore.

----------
albusseverus said:
IAs for Windows 8, being awful has never really hurt Windows sales - they've had 90% or better, no matter how bad the experience.
Click to expand...

Maths is misleading you. Assume Windows had 90% share and MacOS X 10%, say 90 million vs 10 million, just to make up some numbers. If Windows dropped by a third to 60 million, the market share would only drop from 90% to 85.7%.
 
Michael Goff said:
Most hated? Where do you get that?
Click to expand...

Not from you that's for sure lol...

try and understand my whole sentence in future before u post. It clearly says "I think'... Not positive, not negative, just MY OWN personal view.. which can always be wrong.
 
Exhale said:
Considering previous quarters (when the W8 situation was worse) - had several months with Apple doing almost as badly as the market average (and far behind several other OEMs) not really.

This quarter is solely spurred by the refreshes of their hardware.
Click to expand...

Given that 8.1 was not the return of Christ as Microsoft made it sound, I think Windows 8 damage is still ongoing, we haven't seen the bottom of this yet. Just like Vista's damage continued for years.

BTW, cool screen name, reminds me of a song
 
Tech198 said:
Not from you that's for sure lol...

try and understand my whole sentence in future before u post. It clearly says "I think'... Not positive, not negative, just MY OWN personal view.. which can always be wrong.
Click to expand...

So you have no basis that you formed your opinion on?
 
00sjsl said:
I would not go that far, but its only post Mavericks that my 2009 MacBook Pro is starting to feel a bit tired. I'm more tempted to replace my one year old iPad (16G is not quite enough).
Click to expand...
2.5" drives, replaceable RAM, and discrete graphics are luxuries now. I would have been happy with a Haswell MacBook Pro and the Retina display is frustrating with scaling. All those pixels to pull 1280 x 800 effective on the 13" model.
 
Michael Goff said:
So you have no basis that you formed your opinion on?
Click to expand...

Let's make that clear: With previous Windows version, I heard of people not liking them, disliking them, some saying "I hate it" in an exaggerated way. With Windows 8, that's the first time that I've heard of people saying that they hate it, and really meaning it. So the basis for my opinion is real people telling me how they feel about it. In addition, enough experience with software development and user experience design that I can understand _why_ they feel like this.
 
Parasprite said:
If only they would just let us use USB 2.0 for the coming 4K monitors instead of requiring us to these crazy and completely unnecessary 20GB/sec wiremajiggies... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I'm talking about the necessary bandwidth to stream a 4k movie off a server, not the bandwidth to drive a ultra high resolution display over a wire. HDMI offers us a 5Gb connection, yet we're able to stream a Blu-Ray quality 1080p movie over a 35Mb internet connection.

Next time you use that rolleye emote, make sure you're up to speed, and actually know what we're talking about.
 
Last edited:
gnasher729 said:
Let's make that clear: With previous Windows version, I heard of people not liking them, disliking them, some saying "I hate it" in an exaggerated way. With Windows 8, that's the first time that I've heard of people saying that they hate it, and really meaning it. So the basis for my opinion is real people telling me how they feel about it. In addition, enough experience with software development and user experience design that I can understand _why_ they feel like this.
Click to expand...

See?

That wasn't hard.
 
lilo777 said:
Connection is only part of the equation. I can't watch Amazon Prime Instant Video in HD on my stable 100Mbps connection because of the sound hiccups. In addition to connection you also need server bandwidth. Besides, think about the following. To play uncompressed 4K movie on your BR player you'll eventually need a $100 device and $2 (cost to manufacture) optical disk. We are not there yet but in year it might be the case. Alternatively, you can do it
with some (severe) compression using, say, $100 ATV, router, cable modem, Comcast infrastructure and, say, Amazon's servers at the total cost (per customer) of how much? $2000?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I should've taken the millions of billions of hiccups that could come up between a server hosting a 4k movie and your TV. Just having a fast enough connection isn't enough. That's only a theoretical maximum, and you're not always guaranteed to get that speed.

If someone were to stream 4k movies in the near future (like in the next couple years or so), and it ends up being hugely popular, they'd practically have to have their own dedicated backbone just to support the service. That's a lot of data being thrown around, and it'd be expensive as hell to maintain. It'd take a company bigger than Netflix to do, that's for sure. There's probably not anyone outside of a telco that could do it.
 
Michael Goff said:
So you have no basis that you formed your opinion on?
Click to expand...

That's correct. It's just my own view of the fact all the issue they have with dealing with Metro.

That's what i've heard, and more..... While some like Windows 8 .... Personally, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
 
gnasher729 said:
What's strange is that IDC seems to _always_ have lower estimates for Apple. I'm really wondering if someone has kept track of this - last ten years Gartner estimates, IDC estimates, and Apple actual numbers.
Click to expand...

Apple doesn't break down sales by regions, so we never really know the sales in the U.S., which is what these reports are about. We can make a guess based on Apple's worldwide sales, which we will know on Jan 27. If those are up, then it is probably safe to say that the US sales are up. But that will still just be a guess. At least for lay-folk like us just watching from the sides.
 
Renzatic said:
In computer terms, 15 years is the coming and going of a dinosaur age.

edit: I'll also add being able to stream 4k content is a lot closer than you think. We'll assume that a 2 hour Blu-Ray quality movie is about 30GB. You could stream that on a 34 Mbps connection. Now we'll assume again that 4k movies are roughly 4x the size, or 120GB per 2 hours. To be able to stream that, you'd have to have a 133 Mbps internet connection.

That's high, but not 15 years away high. I've got fiber running to my house, and I could access 100 Mbps just by calling up my telco and asking for it. On top of that, Google and a bunch of other companies are already experimenting with gigabit fiber in a few select cities. So the bandwidth needed to stream 4k isn't all that far away. I'd say in a year or two, most cities will have access to that much bandwidth, and in about 4-6 years, it'll be widely available and affordable.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure. In the past 10 years, the maximum available speed provided in my area (without going to a dedicated connection for a few grand a month) has increased from 15Mbps to 20Mbps.

As a general rule, in the US, residential data connections haven't increased all that much. While it'd be nice to think the providers would get off their collective rear ends, and update their infrastructure, 3+ decades of subsidies aimed at doing exactly that hasn't exactly made them rush to do so. What makes you think that'll change to the point where the connection to your home will be 130-150Mbps in 4-6 years?
 
Microsoft is the best advertising campaign that Apple could never create.

The latest products out of Redmond ooze with contempt and hostility, utterly exploding beyond recognition the concept of usability.
 
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