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When big clubs fall, nobody feels sorry for them. It happened with Liverpool 20+ years back, and it is happening with Man Utd right now (though they may recover much more quickly). And that is fair. Who feels sorry when an overdog fails? Nobody except their own fans.

What I meant to ask earlier was, will Hoeness' conviction mean he loses control of the club? Can he/will he be fired?
 
What I meant to ask was, will Hoeness' conviction mean he loses control of the club? Will he be fired?

He won't be officially fired. Pretty sure about that. That's something even (more sensitive - like my boss) Bayern fans were adressing when this came out last year.

How much he is still involved and in control nowadays is pretty much impossible to say.

To clarify (and I am by no means very informed about these laws) in Germany, it's posssible to 'out' yourself as a tax-evader (lol - not sure how that is properly translated) and if done correctly you just pay back the amount in question + (small) fee but you don't get convicted. Now this rule actually applies only to sums <1million. So when the whole scandal took place it was almost immediately clear that he's pretty much convicted automatically.
 
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Also, please consider what an estimated (best case scenario in favor for Hoesness) amount of evaded taxes means regarding the overall sums. I mean he ain't no sheik or oligarch and there are numbers, accounts and questions raised which get Bayern Munich fans fingers crossing that their high-and-mighty club isn't dragged into this as well.

This is soooo good!


Oh, we're at 26.2 millions right now. :D

Obviously forget to press that tara button when selling his sausages ;)
 
On Blackadders question:

It is possible, if a person is engaged in an honorary office or does a lot for charity, that he will get a lower sentence.

Then there is the judgement by the highest court, that if the amount in question is over 1 Million, you can't just pay, but have to stay in prison and the sentence won't be suspended for probation. But that is not a law, but only a recommendation by the highest court.

If you on your own, after years, go to the "police" and say you did tax fraud and you will give the court all documents and name the right sum of the not payed taxes and your income, you get no sentence at all. You just have to pay the taxes for the years in question plus 6% for every year.
If you are lucky and have waited long enough and then tell the "police" you will not get any trial and no sentence will be spoken out.

If you do not tell on your own and investigation sees your tax fraud, you will go to prison + pay the taxes.

That is the case with Honess.

Timeline:
Magazine "Stern" is investigating that there might be tax fraud by Hoeness.
Hoeness notices that and in two nights tells his advocate to help him, declare !on his own! that he has committed tax fraud. It will count, if you name every amount of money and give the papers and documents for it, before investigation starts. (It was also said, that the minister of finance or the minister president had given him a hint, that they might soon investigate).
This they did, but the investigators had also heard of the "Stern" research and filed an investigation on their own.
The prosecutor looked through the filed self-declaration and decied, that it is maybe(!) to late and that it must be missing some details.
Now Hoeness people say, no one can get all documents together in two nights, please have mercy.

Now the court had to decide, what they should think about that.

Trial began on monday.
Honess declares that besides the 3,5Million he had admitted, that there are actually 18,5million in sum. (As a self defense saying, that they must see that he is really faithfully honest, this time and that they should think about that, because now the prosecutors do not have to find that on their own).

He also lamented, that he had spent 5million for charity and has payed 50million taxes in Germany anyway. (Thinking, that might save his butt). Mind, if your earn 150.000/year, you have to pay 42% for everything over that. But you can declare all sorts of losses (the money you spent for fuel on your way to your job, or if you buy a PC for your home office, etc. so no one actually pays that.) So, if he has payed 50million taxes in Germany, you can imagine how much he must have earned, to still have money he did not declared.

Then it was discovered, that he had claimed a loss of 120million when he did his annual tax declaration (the one he really did and the ta office knew about) in Germany. At the same time he had declared a 120million earnings in Switzerland.

This morning the prosecutor said, that she found that on top of the 3,5million he had declared initially, when he was caught, that on top of that it is not 15million, as he said on Monday, but 23,7million, which is in sum 27,2million.
Now ! the question will be, if that is in the questionable years, or if it is too long back. (This might save his butt, but it is unlikely, that all is overdue).

They expect a sentence on Thursday, which hints that it is quite easy to estimate the amount in question, because in these high regions, you do not have to think a lot anymore and will say "you go to prison".

BUT, my fear is, that the minister president of Bayern will interfere through the backdoor or something else (the so called "itallian behaviour is very common and wide spread in the state of Bavaria).
The court in question also made everybody laugh, when they had to plan the trial against three neo-nazi-terrorists (the NSU), because they were doing their job like semi-pros and so one might think that there will be surprises to come that no one can think of. (Maybe an assistant puts coffee on the USB-stick with the data and throws it in the trash, because he thinks, now that it is wet, no one can use it anyway. These kind of storys. I make that up now, of course).

Then there is another thing. "Stern" has discovered that there was a bank account with 500million on it. They found out, that it first was by a club and then later got transfered to a single person. But they did not have enough information (that was in 2002), so they decided not to make this public.

---
The crazy Bayern fans

No matter what, the fans keep saying "no one is perfect", "everyone does a small mistake from time to time" and so on. They even say, "No he can't get sentenced. I mean he is our Uli." (As if they really do not understand, why one can even ask that question). Or "he has done so much good", furthermore "the state wastes the money, so it is better in the hands of Uli". "No, we are Bayern!?!?!".

I think the fact, that the prosecutor is female, will lead even to that, that they will say "she doe snot know her profession, they should have taken a man", "she is just a bitch and wizard", "someone has to ******* her, than she would be cooler. I bet she never gets *********"

Rummenigge (Bayern head)
btw. has been senetenced, because he had smuggled two pricey clocks from Saudi-Arabia to Germany and did not declare that for taxation.

Beckenbauer

says: "People should not be that hard with him, he has just made a little mistake." (he btw. pays his taxes in Austria, because he lives there. You can work in Germany, but live elsewhere and then you get not taxed in Germany.)

---
Pep's statement

I say: Really? I did find him ok, but now he is a persona non grata. Does he not have any moral? He could have done like other people would do in this situation and say "I won't comment, let's wait for the trail to be finished".
 
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CoxOrange, ty for explaining that much better. Not so much for equalising last week-end...:D
 
Thanks Cox Orange, it sounds like quite a circus. I hope they throw the book that him. Supporters are always blind to their own team's faults as long as the team is winning things.

Time for another one of those overpriced beers at Wembley, Jaffa. :D
 
Bayern is doomed, doomed I tells ya :p

As long as Bayern wins, the headlines around Hoeness will quickly go away, it happened last year, people said the same thing last year around that winning for Uli will be the best they can do. I have my doubts that there will be a verdict on Thursday, this thing is getting out of proportions. Question remains: how can someone at the top of one of the top clubs in Europe and founder of a successful enterprise be so sloppy with his taxes?

Arsene make it happen!:D
 
Question remains: how can someone at the top of one of the top clubs in Europe and founder of a successful enterprise be so sloppy with his taxes?

he is in good company though... just last year Messi brokered a 5 million euro "deal" with spanish justice for his tax evasions ;)

yet somehow that was quickly buried in the news outlets ... and i somehow doubt those 2 are the only tax evaders from international football
 
PS: what I wrote under Beckenbauer, I meant as a quote, have added "."

CoxOrange, ty for explaining that much better. Not so much for equalising last week-end...:D
Hehe, well at least you owe Choupo-Moting the first goal. ;)
Thanks Cox Orange, it sounds like quite a circus. ...
(Today) Hoeness and his advocates accepted the claim by the prosecutor about the 27,2million without saying much to it (they were reported to just having asked 3 clarifying questions). That is seen as an additional move by Hoeness side to make the impression that they are cooperative. I think they might think: better say ok now, then giving them encouragement to dig even further and find that there is even more money.
...
1* As long as Bayern wins, the headlines around Hoeness will quickly go away (...) 2* Question remains: how can someone at the top of one of the top clubs in Europe and founder of a successful enterprise be so sloppy with his taxes?
1 agree
2 agree, though I think if there is not a portion true of his quote, that he had lost control over knowing what he has and that he gambled so much with shares, that he didn't knew what money went out and what in.
Nevertheless, I think these rich people would have other people who are professional enough to do that and warn him, if something is going wrong and if he is a successful manager (like you just said), I then again think he should have knowledge and control of what he possess' himself.

If not, that would be the sign that he just had luck being a manager, absolutely not knowing what he does, but having success. (I often ask myself, if people in that "wage"-category are actually doing a real job or just sitting there and having luck. (like Mehdorn) - and they can rest on their luck, because they have so much money and do not have to fear of loosing a job, because they have mighty friends and money. (yes, I know, sounds like a stereotypical left wing view, and makes me look like having very simple political views. :D)

Or people like Hoeness are like these actors (not sarcastic, I mean the profession of acting) that gave their money to financial advisers to let that spend in houses in eastern Germany in the 90ies and afterwards having lost everything.
...
yet somehow that was quickly buried in the news outlets ... and i somehow doubt those 2 are the only tax evaders from international football
Agree.
+ would like to have someone investigate against Blatter. :D

---
I am constantly switching, between radio (the match) and sport1 fan talk (they are on Bayerns side) and the political magazines. In 5min. the talk show "Münchner Runde" starts, I'm curoius, if they will have a critical view, with northern guest journalists invited or if they will stay under their kind and defend him.
 
Poldi!

That was worth it. Bayern will claim foul but wouldn't complain if Robben gets a pen for his dive.
 
That actually surpassed my expectations. Bayern were far from vintage. Arsenal had their chances but lacked that little bit of pace and quality in the final third. Probably would've been a different game with Walcott and Ramsey on the pitch. Probably.

Ox terrorised their defence but ref let Bayern get away with the body-checks.

Great save by Fabianki. Germans REALLY suck at pens, and Robben proves once again he is a 1st class diver.

But in the end, the inevitable happened.

That said, Arsenal still unbeaten against Bayern whenever its been 11 v 11.

Game was lost by the red card and the missed pen in the first leg. If penalty goes in and it stays 11 v 11 and you just wonder...
 
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Robben and Ribery are so very unlikeable.

Athletico Madrid beat Milan 5-1 on aggregate. We know they are capable of beating Real Madrid, so I think we have to call them real contenders and I'm rooting for them. Diego Costa is sin sparkling form.
 
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Milan are really in a crisis. That exit means no CL football for them next season. Too many old players past their prime in the team. Experience needs to be mixed with youth/talent.

Athletico now real dark horses. Diego Simeone has worked wonders.
 
PS: what I wrote under Beckenbauer, I meant as a quote, have added "."



2 agree, though I think if there is not a portion true of his quote, that he had lost control over knowing what he has and that he gambled so much with shares, that he didn't knew what money went out and what in.
Nevertheless, I think these rich people would have other people who are professional enough to do that and warn him, if something is going wrong and if he is a successful manager (like you just said), I then again think he should have knowledge and control of what he possess' himself.

If not, that would be the sign that he just had luck being a manager, absolutely not knowing what he does, but having success. (I often ask myself, if people in that "wage"-category are actually doing a real job or just sitting there and having luck. (like Mehdorn) - and they can rest on their luck, because they have so much money and do not have to fear of loosing a job, because they have mighty friends and money. (yes, I know, sounds like a stereotypical left wing view, and makes me look like having very simple political views. :D)

Or people like Hoeness are like these actors (not sarcastic, I mean the profession of acting) that gave their money to financial advisers to let that spend in houses in eastern Germany in the 90ies and afterwards having lost everything.

Agree.
+ would like to have someone investigate against Blatter. :D

---
I am constantly switching, between radio (the match) and sport1 fan talk (they are on Bayerns side) and the political magazines. In 5min. the talk show "Münchner Runde" starts, I'm curoius, if they will have a critical view, with northern guest journalists invited or if they will stay under their kind and defend him.

I think he perfectly knew what he was doing, but is trying to play it down, he was trying to play that victim card of his "addiction" last year and now his attorney is saying that the actual sum doesn't matter at this point? He think the success that he had with Bayern on a professional level got to his head and he couldn't get enough, yes that would be in accordance of what he said him falling victim to his addiction, yet at the same time, he took upon everyone, who doubted/criticized him. I mean even Christoph Daum apparently feels sorry for him now. Hey maybe, Willi Lemke will pay him a visit in prison. :p

I wonder what verdict will be reached because this will either mean that people are scared from now on or they say screw it, if he got away with that sum and that kind of punishment, there's no reason to do right thing.
 
Speaking as someone who pays his taxes, I can't feel even a little bit sorry. He's lived the good life, and shirked his responsibilities; time to pay up.

Kariya said:
Milan are really in a crisis. That exit means no CL football for them next season. Too many old players past their prime in the team. Experience needs to be mixed with youth/talent.

Nobody 'deserves' to be in the Champions League, even team with Milan's pedigree - and as you say, this is going to be a major blow for them. Once you're out it can take a long time to come back. It's good to see a little shakeup among the top dogs in Europe though. That's why I'd love to see Athletico at least make the final.

A word on Arsenal - the overall press on them is negative these days but in truth they've had a good season and they gave Bayern a tougher game than just about anyone has since their last meeting. It's disappointing to get knocked out but it happened in two close games against the team that will probably win it all. Hardly anything to be ashamed of.

Losing to Bayern is understandable. But people are still going to expect them to beat Wigan...
 
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- *shrug* meh. 'Twas expected. Miracles rarely happen with Arsene in Europe.

- At least it managed to stay 11 v 11 this time and still undefeated at the Allianz. But reality is reality.

- Well done Chambo

- Well done Robben

- Ozil, hamstring, few weeks.

Sounds about right.

Good luck to Jaffa in the FA semis.
 
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considering the fact that arsenal was two goals behind at the kick off i wasn't so sure what Arsenal was doing in the first half. They simply let Bayern dominate.

then after the equalizer (which an other ref could have called a foul) another good 15 minutes by Arsenal.
Why not pley like that for 90 Arsene ?
 
Manuel can't complain about the referee tonight. Barca should be 2-0 up.

EDIT:...actually he might. Dzeko screwed over

EDIT: Full time. City out. Barca won't win the CL either.
 
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Barca could still win it, but the money's gotta be on either Bayern or possibly Real Madrid.

City just can't do anything in Europe, despite all the money and talent.
 
Seems all the top teams need to bolster their defences;

- Bayern's Dante is weakening and ageing. And they play a defensive midfielder as a centre and a winger as a left back. Van Buyten is 36 and slow.

- Barca also play a defensive midfielder as a centre half, have lost their wall (Puyol) and their other centre (Pique) is off the pace.

- Madrid's Pepe is ageing and always a liability.

- City outside of Kompany have Demichelis, Nastasic and Lescott. Nuff said.

- Even Chelsea need some work. Terry is ageing and Luiz is not a defender. Only Cahill.

Add the above + pacey front lines + increasingly sloppy European refereeing = Red cards/pens waiting to happen.

Still think Real will be the team to beat. Very potent up front.

In other news, Rangers win promotion.
 
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Can't agree with Bayern defense. Alaba is a worldclass left back, Martinez, Boateng and possibly Badstuber are more than solid as CBs and young. Doesn't really matter that Martinez is originally played as a defensive mid. Kompany was almost playmaker at his time in Hamburg. They could do with a new right back though imho, put Lahm permanently into midfield and retire Schweinsteiger. But that won't happen.

I can see Hummels leaving to Barca in 1-2 years - heck maybe even this summer depending on the WC and circumstances (CL qualification), not very likely though. Gündogan and Reus will leave as well rather soon. Followed by Klopp in 2-3 years. Then that chapter is closed as well. Kinda sad but it was fun while it lasted.
 
Liverpool's suits need to be crisscrossing Europe immediately and start waving large wads of cash under the noses of every top defender they can think of, if the club hopes to make any kind of impact in the Champions League next season. The triple-S strike force looks good but my goodness the defense will be murdered by any decent CL team. :eek:

Players like Hummels would make a huge difference for Liverpool.
 
Like strikers, there is a shortage of decent defenders in the market.

Can't agree with Bayern defines...

Agree on Alaba. Not quite as convinced by the rest from the european games i've seen. But thats just me.
 
Liked Leverkusen today. Seemed much more confident. If they had only started earlier with this mentality.

-------
Women's Algarve Cup Finale.

Germany won 3:0 against Japan.

I was surprised how well, understood and maybe well-rehearsed everything looked. And that with the Coach again changing players for the starting team, even changing positions. She had put Maroszan (number 10) who had usually played behind the striker before (and once even as a striker) to the six. That worked like a charm. She is considered to have the best technique (besides Sazcic, formerly D'Mbabi) and has a heavy shot (will take free kicks often) that hits into the goal from 30m away.
The 2:0 was a very nice goal. I hope I can find a clip of that tomorrow. The ball was shot parallel to the box and then forwarded into the goal box with a backheel.

There were changes/substitutes on other positions (one because of injury and others for learning reasons) as well. Even the younger 2nd goal keeper who got a chance today, did a good job. After some uncomfortable impressions I got in the earlier matches, I now think they are well prepared for the WC 2015 and have many options. The team was outstanding today and Japan wasn't even bad (it sometimes looks like they play it more like chess, though) and their technique and good ball possession was still see-able.
(Additional Infos deleted for convenience).
 
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