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flur

macrumors 68020
Nov 12, 2012
2,371
1,160
Sorry but when was the last time you ran a virtual machine. Serious performance issue my arse as Jim Royal would say. And additional battery consumption is utter rubbish as well.

As are the comments regarding available software. Sure if you have some unique requirement that is only available on window fair enough but otherwise all is well.

Your preconceptions seem to be the points made in the late previous century. None of the arguments put forward are current and relevant.

Well, I run a VM on a regular basis, specifically to use the Windows version of Word. I do this because the Mac version of Word doesn't work as smoothly for me - it takes forever to load my 400 page novel, while in Windows I can start working right away - and my printer won't print double-sided from my mac, but will from Windows in VM.

I can confirm that, even at 8gb RAM I do occasionally have memory issues, and the battery takes a hit. And all I'm doing it running Word! Imagine if I were doing something that was actually intensive.

So, basically, ALL those arguments ARE relevant and current, in my experience.
 

flur

macrumors 68020
Nov 12, 2012
2,371
1,160
Not sure why anybody would buy a Mac if they aren't going to use OS X.

Well, I bought a Mac to use Scrivener, which at the time worked much better on the Mac. I use OSX for most things, but there are things that are better done for Windows (like Microsoft's applications - that should be obvious, LOL).

In an ideal world, MS would make their software suite work as well on a Mac as it does on Windows, and Apple would make decent drivers that allowed Windows to properly throttle. But in the world we live in, these two companies are too busy trying to one-up each other that the consumer who needs (or wants) both ends up suffering.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,233
1,382
Brazil
Sorry but when was the last time you ran a virtual machine. Serious performance issue my arse as Jim Royal would say. And additional battery consumption is utter rubbish as well.

As are the comments regarding available software. Sure if you have some unique requirement that is only available on window fair enough but otherwise all is well.

Your preconceptions seem to be the points made in the late previous century. None of the arguments put forward are current and relevant.


It was today. I have a 15" rMBP with 8 GB RAM, running Yosemite. I run Windows 8.1 on Parallels 10. It runs OK, but there is a serious hit on performance on both OS X and Windows (and also depending on how much RAM I assign to the virtual machine). It also consumes the battery much faster.

As for software, it is not unique requirements. Apple focuses on hardware and has a platform that has less than 10% of the market share. It also does not develop a lot of fully-featured software. Microsoft is a softwarehouse and has more than 90% of the market share of desktop OS. Of couse Windows has more software available.

I don't have any unique requirements; but although they are quite simple, OS X fails to meet them entirely. Microsoft Office, for instance, is much superior on Windows than on OS X, and nor Apple nor anyone else provides a credible replacement for it. iWork is only a solution to those who have very simple needs and do not work in a true office environment. And I would not say the need for a fully-featured and complex office suite is a unique requirement.

All my arguments are current as of today. I can feel they are true every time I have to use my computer. You may not feel the same way, but your needs may be different. But just because your needs are different, it does not make my requirements "unique", as if they were some sort of an aberration.
 

thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,193
3,392
Pennsylvania
So are they using commodity hardware or are they using custom hardware that they support poorly? Can't be both.

Not sure why anybody would buy a Mac if they aren't going to use OS X.

Why not? Their CPU's, chipset, RAM, SSD's, all of the guts of the computer are commodity hardware. The special bits are the micro controller in the trackpad or (I believe) the keyboard. So while your CPU will perform fantastically under Windows with the default drivers, your trackpad won't.

Then there's the edge cases for things like GPUs which are commodity hardware, but customized for each OEM - some want more horsepower, others want less power but longer battery life, and so while the silicone may be the same, the driver is different in order to get the hardware to be compatible with the rest of the computer.
 

motrek

macrumors 68030
Sep 14, 2012
2,618
305
Why not? Their CPU's, chipset, RAM, SSD's, all of the guts of the computer are commodity hardware. The special bits are the micro controller in the trackpad or (I believe) the keyboard. So while your CPU will perform fantastically under Windows with the default drivers, your trackpad won't.
...

My off-the-cuff post probably didn't convey this very well, but my point is that just because they're using commodity hardware doesn't mean they can, should, or have to support Windows. (Which is what you implied.)
 

hleewell

macrumors 6502a
Oct 22, 2009
544
62
16GB RAM, 1TB SSD standard
Superfast boot speed, super cool
Longer "all day" battery life
Smoke everything in the market
 

cyb3rdud3

macrumors 68040
Jun 22, 2014
3,344
2,089
UK
Well, I run a VM on a regular basis, specifically to use the Windows version of Word. I do this because the Mac version of Word doesn't work as smoothly for me - it takes forever to load my 400 page novel, while in Windows I can start working right away - and my printer won't print double-sided from my mac, but will from Windows in VM.



I can confirm that, even at 8gb RAM I do occasionally have memory issues, and the battery takes a hit. And all I'm doing it running Word! Imagine if I were doing something that was actually intensive.



So, basically, ALL those arguments ARE relevant and current, in my experience.


Something is not right I would suggest. Right now I've got two virtual machines running. One with Windows Server and SQL server and reporting services. The other with Windows 8 and sql studio. Then office365 on my Mac, with IntelliJ Idea and Talend Open Studio. All on my little MacBook Air with i7 and 8Gb and no slow down what so ever for any of the systems.

Likewise in connected to a Epson and Canon dual sided colour printer without issues.

Office365 really works well on the Mac. In fact the last bad version was 2008 which was really slow. Current versions are super fast and also support the macros and vba. I'd love to know what is so inferior about them.

It is amazing how two people can have such different experiences.

Ps. I use VMWare such that I can move machines in and out of esxi easily.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,233
1,382
Brazil
Something is not right I would suggest. Right now I've got two virtual machines running. One with Windows Server and SQL server and reporting services. The other with Windows 8 and sql studio. Then office365 on my Mac, with IntelliJ Idea and Talend Open Studio. All on my little MacBook Air with i7 and 8Gb and no slow down what so ever for any of the systems.

I don't know how you manage that. I run Windows 8.1 on Parallels 10 on my retina MacBook Pro and I can feel the performance hit. It is very clear. Windows will only run fine if I assign 4 GB to it; but then, OS X runs slow. Very clearly.

Office365 really works well on the Mac. In fact the last bad version was 2008 which was really slow. Current versions are super fast and also support the macros and vba. I'd love to know what is so inferior about them.

Office 365 is a subscription model. Office 2011 is the version available for Mac, and which corresponds to Office 2010 for Windows. Windows has Office 2013, and Mac did not get a counterpart to that yet. If you use Office 2013 and 2011 you can easily notice the differences. Office 2013 is faster, has a better interface, less bugs, consumes less memory and has more features.

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Well, I run a VM on a regular basis, specifically to use the Windows version of Word. I do this because the Mac version of Word doesn't work as smoothly for me - it takes forever to load my 400 page novel, while in Windows I can start working right away - and my printer won't print double-sided from my mac, but will from Windows in VM.

I can confirm that, even at 8gb RAM I do occasionally have memory issues, and the battery takes a hit. And all I'm doing it running Word! Imagine if I were doing something that was actually intensive.

So, basically, ALL those arguments ARE relevant and current, in my experience.

Totally agree with you. Word for Windows is far better than Word for Mac, even on a virtual machine. And, yes, my Mac also takes a hit when running a virtual machine.

----------

My off-the-cuff post probably didn't convey this very well, but my point is that just because they're using commodity hardware doesn't mean they can, should, or have to support Windows. (Which is what you implied.)

Perhaps Apple should. Apple already supports Windows; why shouldn't it do it properly? It would only attract more Windows users.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,233
1,382
Brazil
Yes and UNIX/BSD OS X foundation has also opened access to a lot of software to the Mac platform.
MacOS and now OS X has always shown attractivity for developpers, and even more as interest continues to grow for the platform among consumers, and also when developpers already have had to convert/learn to develop for iOS. The software argument is really getting old.

Not yet. iOS apps tend to be very simple. I can see lots of apps made without much effort, and for sale for US$ 0.99. This is not the kind of apps that I would expect on OS X. I want software full of features, and I don't see that.

I love the way you present it: "Apple chose to produce its own OS". Yes, and before Windows was even an idea and on the market.
That's always how the company was driven, that's the idea. You really have to see Apple as a different company than simply a PC assembler whose only choice will under pressure essentially be to ship hardware for Windows.
Coming from the Windows world, you can of course have difficulties to grasp the concept. Which is a problem if you want to speculate and dicsuss Apple future lines of Mac.

Yes, Apple did. It was a choice to develop and to keep a different OS. I am not sure Mac OS came before Windows. Windows as a graphical interface was released in 1985, but it run on top of MS-DOS, which was first released in 1981. Mac OS dates back from 1984, years after Apple II in 1977. But, back in the day, there were many different operating systems; even Microsoft tried it with MSX in 1983.

That is not the point.

I know Apple is a different company and that it has a different OS, and that people love it.

But the fact is that OS X has less than 10% of the market and it is very frustrating that software is not available for it, and that, although a Mac could perfectly run Windows to make it up for it, it runs it poorly due to bad drivers.
 

chleuasme

macrumors 6502
Apr 17, 2012
485
75
it should be supported like any other first class OS. Possibly even more so, considering it's 90% marketshare to Apple's 10%
Apple should support Windows better than OS X on their Mac? Yes, ok.. Well I already answered that before.
Apple is making a lot of its money on hardware sales. They aren't going to retain consumers only playing in the field of Windows PC assemblers, where the race to the bottom and low margins is driven by consumer's desire to save money. They sell you more than another PC made of the sum of its specs, and consumers choosing a Mac are paying for it.
Unit sales market share is not a concern, they capture 50% of the profit made on hardware in the sector with barely 7% of the sales. A majority of people run Windows, so what? You can bet the majority of these users didn't even choose Windows in the first place, their wallet did and this was the default, and then it's also hard to change an habit. You would sound more legitimate to ask for Apple supporting installation of OS X on any random PCs than what you're asking for. And this of course is not gonna happen either, they want to sell you the full experience, and it includes lucrative hardware.

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Office 2011 is the version available for Mac, and which corresponds to Office 2010 for Windows. Windows has Office 2013, and Mac did not get a counterpart to that yet. If you use Office 2013 and 2011 you can easily notice the differences. Office 2013 is faster, has a better interface, less bugs, consumes less memory and has more features.
[...]
Word for Windows is far better than Word for Mac, even on a virtual machine. And, yes, my Mac also takes a hit when running a virtual machine.
Yeah, so the blame is on Microsoft, right? Why would I have to install Windows to have access to a decent version of Office?

----------

But the fact is that OS X has less than 10% of the market and it is very frustrating that software is not available for it, and that, although a Mac could perfectly run Windows to make it up for it
If that's a problem for you and can't deal with Bootcamp or virtualization solutions, don't buy a Mac. Or contact devs and software editors for the support of OS X, they can consider more and more it's new opportunities for them.
 
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thejadedmonkey

macrumors G3
May 28, 2005
9,193
3,392
Pennsylvania
My off-the-cuff post probably didn't convey this very well, but my point is that just because they're using commodity hardware doesn't mean they can, should, or have to support Windows. (Which is what you implied.)

I'm not saying that Apple has to support Windows, just that if they're going to say that they support it (e.g., offer Bootcamp and everything) that they do it right.
 

cyb3rdud3

macrumors 68040
Jun 22, 2014
3,344
2,089
UK
I don't know how you manage that. I run Windows 8.1 on Parallels 10 on my retina MacBook Pro and I can feel the performance hit. It is very clear. Windows will only run fine if I assign 4 GB to it; but then, OS X runs slow. Very clearly.







Office 365 is a subscription model. Office 2011 is the version available for Mac, and which corresponds to Office 2010 for Windows. Windows has Office 2013, and Mac did not get a counterpart to that yet. If you use Office 2013 and 2011 you can easily notice the differences. Office 2013 is faster, has a better interface, less bugs, consumes less memory and has more features.

----------





Totally agree with you. Word for Windows is far better than Word for Mac, even on a virtual machine. And, yes, my Mac also takes a hit when running a virtual machine.

----------





Perhaps Apple should. Apple already supports Windows; why shouldn't it do it properly? It would only attract more Windows users.


I'm actually more amazed that you are someone who is using the "more" features from office 2013 vs office 2011. The fast majority of people that I work with in a professional capacity don't even use all the features in word MS Word 2.0.

But no using it on a daily basis with graphically and tabular intense data. Some of the contracts that we work with go up to 10k pages. We transfer easily between PC and Mac users without issue.

And perhaps VMWare works differently, but unless you've got an intensive mathematical process running in the background it just idles out when switching between operating systems. When I'm on my laptop I use them in spaces and at my desk they go up the 2569x1600 external monitor.

No performance hit whatsoever. I'm really surprised that you rMBP has that so clearly. Is it one of the early ones? When I looked at them I found the graphics in store stuttering especially when using OpenGL type stuff like Apple Aperture. That made me go the MacBook Air route.

I've found mine a little trouper. It was so fun to see at a Neo4j hackathon when my little MBA crunched through the data in ms with others waiting for seconds. Granted the SSD redesign has a lot to do with that as well. I guess another thing the rMBP hasn't got, so we are not comparing fully alike.
 

cyb3rdud3

macrumors 68040
Jun 22, 2014
3,344
2,089
UK
Apologies. I hope you are stronger than me as that was my entry in this thread as well. It seemed to have moved from Asus to virtualisation and office now.

I just want a new MBA so I can give my current one to my daughter :)
 

objektør

macrumors 6502
Nov 25, 2014
273
24
At home
Apologies. I hope you are stronger than me as that was my entry in this thread as well. It seemed to have moved from Asus to virtualisation and office now.

I just want a new MBA so I can give my current one to my daughter :)

No offense! Just interested in a new rMBA myself. And I prefer osx, not Windows. I even tried the Surface pro3. Perfect size for me. Real nice screen and so on. But I noticed after a couple of days that I just don't want to go back to Windows if Idon't have to (and I don't).
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,233
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Brazil
I'm not saying that Apple has to support Windows, just that if they're going to say that they support it (e.g., offer Bootcamp and everything) that they do it right.


Agreed. After all, they should offer an Apple-like experience even under Windows. If Apple is not willing to support Windows well, then it should let its potential users know right away, instead of advertising a Mac as the computer that can have the best of both worlds.
 

chleuasme

macrumors 6502
Apr 17, 2012
485
75
I don't think Apple has much to fear in offering the best possible support of Windows on their hardware, but they don't need to invest and make the effort to edge their support either; fixes are released, but that's a secondary platform not at the heart of their business.
I think you should stop trolling this thread you created, this subject is not related to the purpose of the thread. You can create another thread in the appropriate section of the forum if you want to discuss that subject.
 
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skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
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No offense! Just interested in a new rMBA myself. And I prefer osx, not Windows. I even tried the Surface pro3. Perfect size for me. Real nice screen and so on. But I noticed after a couple of days that I just don't want to go back to Windows if Idon't have to (and I don't).

So a 12-inch retina MacBook Air might be a good size for you. Note that the Surface Pro 3 has a 3:2 screen ratio, which is different from the screen ratio used in the MacBook Pros and the 13-inch Air (16:10) and the 11-inch Air (16:9). If a 12-inch Air is launched in 2015, it will probably have a 16:10 screen, just like most of Apple's laptops. Some have praised the 3:2 screen ratio of the Surface Pro 3 and the Google Chromebook Pixel, alleging it is better for productivity.
 

objektør

macrumors 6502
Nov 25, 2014
273
24
At home
So a 12-inch retina MacBook Air might be a good size for you. Note that the Surface Pro 3 has a 3:2 screen ratio, which is different from the screen ratio used in the MacBook Pros and the 13-inch Air (16:10) and the 11-inch Air (16:9). If a 12-inch Air is launched in 2015, it will probably have a 16:10 screen, just like most of Apple's laptops. Some have praised the 3:2 screen ratio of the Surface Pro 3 and the Google Chromebook Pixel, alleging it is better for productivity.

Yes, I quite liked the 3:2 ratio on the SP3 as well as the 12" size. I've tried the 11.6" mba for 2 weeks. Before that we used a 2009 MBP so the screen on the 11.6 was actually an improvement though I didn't like the 16:9 ratio that much.
A new 12" rMB 16:10 with the size of the 11.6 but without the bezels would be my machine of choice even I prefer the 3:2. It's a matter of priorities.
I'd be fine with: (retina)screen, 10hour batterylife, size/weight/performance (like the current 11.6 mba). Nice with a fanless but absolutely no must. Especially not when it means it's getting hot/less performance. I might even prefer a fan. The fan in the 11.6mba that I used only turned on with Handbreak and the like. No problem or issue at all. I'm not a heavy user. Some photo/video-editing (iMovie) and some sketchup. And the usual consuming/iPad stuff.
We have a mba13 (2014) now and my original iPad that is showing its age but I want to try to wait it out for the new rMB. Maybe even to the second generation if it turns out that the 1gen Broadwell edition has some trouble. Skylake might come 2H 2015 with some improvements.
 

chleuasme

macrumors 6502
Apr 17, 2012
485
75
Some have praised the 3:2 screen ratio of the Surface Pro 3 and the Google Chromebook Pixel, alleging it is better for productivity.
What is the most "productive" screen (thinking with HiDPI 2x for ease of comparison sake):
10.6"@960x540, 12"@1080x720, 12"@1152x720, 11.8"@1280x800 or 11.6"-12.2"@1366x768 (and size-wise, the Chromebook Pixel is more in the class of the rMBP13, if forgetting its OS)?
Aspect ratio isn't everything, you also have to look at the resolution when you consider a screen. A screen can be defined by its diagonal size + resolution or by its pixel density + resolution, but not only one of these dimensions (and aspect ratio is directly derived from the resolution, and you have a simple relation between pixel density, size, and resolution: a screen is defined in a 2-dimensional space. But if you want to consider the aspect ratio, you'll still need both the diagonal size and the pixel density to describe it).

The Surface Pro 3 is sure a more a productive device than its older sibblings, the screen is larger with a high pixel density. Mirosoft aknowledged they couldn't retain the small form factor of previous versions if they wanted to run a desktop OS and offer a decent experience in laptop mode. But as by design they also wanted a tablet, they couldn't grow too large either and probably 3:2 being more square offered the best choice for both world, as it works great for a laptop.
But compromises made on performances and battery life to afford a thin body with the high pixel density screen still make of it an unbalanced device to me (and then, discussion on 2-in-1, etc). The next version of the Surface Pro will be the real first interesting Microsoft device to me in that segment, and will be interesting to see competing with the Macbook in discussion in this thread: both are waiting for Broadwell.
 
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skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
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Brazil
What is the most "productive" screen (thinking with HiDPI 2x for ease of comparison sake):
10.6"@960x540, 12"@1080x720, 12"@1152x720, 11.8"@1280x800 or 11.6"-12.2"@1366x768 (and size-wise, the Chromebook Pixel is more in the class of the rMBP13, if forgetting its OS)?
Aspect ratio isn't everything, you also have to look at the resolution when you consider a screen. A screen can be defined by its diagonal size + resolution or by its pixel density + resolution, but not only one of these dimensions (and aspect ratio is directly derived from the resolution, and you have a simple relation between pixel density, size, and resolution: a screen is defined in a 2-dimensional space. But if you want to consider the aspect ratio, you'll still need both the diagonal size and the pixel density to describe it).

I tend to think that the smaller the screen is, the more square it must be in order to be productive.

I don't see much difference in productivity between a 16:9 and a 16:10 22-inch screen, for instance, provided that the resolutions are similar. However, I do see a lot of difference between a 16:9 and a 16:10 or a 3:2 screen at smaller sizes with the same resolution.

The 16:9 aspect ratio is not good for browsing the web or for word processing, for instance. On a large screen, you can use only one side of the screen for the application, and therefore the aspect ratio of the window will be different from 16:9, for instance (it may be 8:9 using half of the screen, for intance). However, on a laptop with a small screen, the window tend to occupy the whole screen and, therefore, the 16:9 aspect ratio reveals its shortcomings.

The Surface Pro 3 is sure a more a productive device than its older sibblings, the screen is larger with a high pixel density. Mirosoft aknowledged they couldn't retain the small form factor of previous versions if they wanted to run a desktop OS and offer a decent experience in laptop mode. But as by design they also wanted a tablet, they couldn't grow too large either and probably 3:2 being more square offered the best choice for both world, as it works great for a laptop.
But compromises made on performances and battery life to afford a thin body with the high pixel density screen still make of it an unbalanced device to me (and then, discussion on 2-in-1, etc). The next version of the Surface Pro will be the real first interesting Microsoft device to me in that segment, and will be interesting to see competing with the Macbook in discussion in this thread: both are waiting for Broadwell.

I have not yet seen the Surface Pro 3, but it looks very interesting to me. When I first saw the Surface (even before the Surface Pro hit the shelves), I thought it had great potential, even though it was not there yet. The Surface Pro 3 is a very interesting offering, although I have not tested the keyboard nor the battery life.

The retina MacBook Pro will probably be a competitor to the Surface Pro 3, as both will have thin-and-light bodies and similar screen sizes. It will be interesting to see how they will compare to each other.
 

objektør

macrumors 6502
Nov 25, 2014
273
24
At home
What is the most "productive" screen (thinking with HiDPI 2x for ease of comparison sake):
10.6"@960x540, 12"@1080x720, 12"@1152x720, 11.8"@1280x800 or 11.6"-12.2"@1366x768 (and size-wise, the Chromebook Pixel is more in the class of the rMBP13, if forgetting its OS)?
Aspect ratio isn't everything, you also have to look at the resolution when you consider a screen. A screen can be defined by its diagonal size + resolution or by its pixel density + resolution, but not only one of these dimensions (and aspect ratio is directly derived from the resolution, and you have a simple relation between pixel density, size, and resolution: a screen is defined in a 2-dimensional space. But if you want to consider the aspect ratio, you'll still need both the diagonal size and the pixel density to describe it).

The Surface Pro 3 is sure a more a productive device than its older sibblings, the screen is larger with a high pixel density. Mirosoft aknowledged they couldn't retain the small form factor of previous versions if they wanted to run a desktop OS and offer a decent experience in laptop mode. But as by design they also wanted a tablet, they couldn't grow too large either and probably 3:2 being more square offered the best choice for both world, as it works great for a laptop.
But compromises made on performances and battery life to afford a thin body with the high pixel density screen still make of it an unbalanced device to me (and then, discussion on 2-in-1, etc). The next version of the Surface Pro will be the real first interesting Microsoft device to me in that segment, and will be interesting to see competing with the Macbook in discussion in this thread: both are waiting for Broadwell.

The screen on the Surface pro 3 at 12"@1080x720 is really nice and since the rumored rMB is said to have a similar size screen I liked to try it out. I could compare it to my girlfriends mba13" eventough it has a 16:10 screen. I was pleasantly surprised by the screen estate. It showed quite a bit more than the mba13. Ofcourse text is smaller but crisp and sharp so I could read without my reading glasses something that is more difficult on the mba. I liked the 11.6 mba formfactor but not the 16:9 screen. The new 12"rMB could be the 'perfect size' for me. Worth the wait.
 

chleuasme

macrumors 6502
Apr 17, 2012
485
75
I tend to think that the smaller the screen is, the more square it must be in order to be productive.
Yes, because you want vertical space. But that's not only a physical measure of the height of the screen, it also depends on the vertical resolution of the screen, the actual pixel count.
The SP3's 12"@[2x]1080x720 screen offers a smallest vertical resolution than the MBA11's 16:9 screen: you can fit more lines of text on the MBA11 screen for example. And as it also offers a smaller physical screen area with a smaller horizontal resolution, split screen or displaying two apps side by side will be more comfortable on the MBA11.
You can't assess that aspect ratio will decide "productivity" quality of a screen without discussing its physical measurement and pixel density too. In HiDPI 2x, the SP3 is not offering a more productive screen than a 1366x768 screen around the same size.

However, on a laptop with a small screen, the window tend to occupy the whole screen and, therefore, the 16:9 aspect ratio reveals its shortcomings.
No, you can't say that as generally. There is other factor to consider, resolution is one.

The retina MacBook [Air] will probably be a competitor to the Surface Pro 3, as both will have thin-and-light bodies and similar screen sizes. It will be interesting to see how they will compare to each other.
Not really, no. The SP3 is directly touted as a competitor to the current MBA line.
You'll want to look at the future SP4 to compare it with a retina 12" Macbook in 2015, they'll be the same generation.

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I was pleasantly surprised by the screen estate. It showed quite a bit more than the mba13. Ofcourse text is smaller but crisp and sharp so I could read without my reading glasses something that is more difficult on the mba.
On OS X, that screen used with a 2x retina factor would offer a much smaller area than a MBA13 (1440x900 vs 1080x720); you'd have to use it at 2x 1440x960 (and introduce scaling artifacts on OS X after scaling down 2880x1920 to the 2160x1440 pixel grid of the screen) to have an effective larger space but indeed you have to trade comfort for that: everything is smaller, even if legible due to the high pixel density.
On Windows you can also tweak UI text elements sizes, but then face other kind of problems.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Original poster
Feb 23, 2009
4,233
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Brazil
Yes, because you want vertical space. But that's not only a physical measure of the height of the screen, it also depends on the vertical resolution of the screen, the actual pixel count.

I am assuming similar resolutions here.

The SP3's 12"@[2x]1080x720 screen offers a smallest vertical resolution than the MBA11's 16:9 screen: you can fit more lines of text on the MBA11 screen for example. And as it also offers a smaller physical screen area with a smaller horizontal resolution, split screen or displaying two apps side by side will be more comfortable on the MBA11.
You can't assess that aspect ratio will decide "productivity" quality of a screen without discussing its physical measurement and pixel density too. In HiDPI 2x, the SP3 is not offering a more productive screen than a 1366x768 screen around the same size.

You are not being fair here by considering the Surface Pro 3 at HiDPI 2x only. The SP3 has a 2160x1440 resolution, which is much higher than the 1366x768 resolution of the 11-inch Air.

As far as I know, the SP3 uses 1.5x scaling, meaning an effective resolution of 1440x960, which is higher than 1366x768 of the 11-inch Air in all respects. This 1440x960 is also a little more than the 1440x900 resolution of the 13-inch Air.

In addition to having a higher resolution, the screen in the SP3 is also larger than in the Air: much more vertical space and just a very small amount of less horizontal space. A comparison is here: http://www.displaywars.com/11,6-inch-16x9-vs-12-inch-3x2

So, the SP3 screen is better for productivity than the screen in the 11-inch Air: larger, more vertical space, and higher resolution. You can argue that the Air is a better device than the SP3 due to having a better keyboard and so on, but that's another story.

No, you can't say that as generally. There is other factor to consider, resolution is one.

Yes. And this is why I assumed similar resolutions.

Not really, no. The SP3 is directly touted as a competitor to the current MBA line.
You'll want to look at the future SP4 to compare it with a retina 12" Macbook in 2015, they'll be the same generation.

You are right. I was referring to the SP4, the follow-up to SP3.
 

chleuasme

macrumors 6502
Apr 17, 2012
485
75
I am assuming similar resolutions here.
No, you were not.

You are not being fair here by considering the Surface Pro 3 at HiDPI 2x only. The SP3 has a 2160x1440 resolution, which is much higher than the 1366x768 resolution of the 11-inch Air.

As far as I know, the SP3 uses 1.5x scaling, meaning an effective resolution of 1440x960, which is higher than 1366x768 of the 11-inch Air in all respects. This 1440x960 is also a little more than the 1440x900 resolution of the 13-inch Air.
I said it was for comparison sake; it's necessary if you want to compare with other screens that are or would fit in a Mac (we aren't gonna do again the discussion, Apple likely will use a screen at 2x not 1.5x. I might happen to be proved wrong on that, who knows). Of course, you can through software exploit the pixels of the screen different ways, and yes by default the SP3 is at 1.5x.

And of course, if you add to the previous list a 12"@1440x960, I'll agree this could be seen as the most "productive" screen. But, then again, we're down talking about pixel density and comfort of utilization and at 144ppi (equivalent at 1x) we're starting to reach some limits I'd argue (everything almost even 7% smaller on screen than on a MBA11 screen, itself already quite dense): yes the highest pixel density at 216 ppi allow to maintain legibility at small sizes, but there is a limit at going too small or force the user to come closer to the screen (or have to display text larger but then losing the interest of the larger resolution for a larger estate). Microsoft using by default this screen as a 1440x960 screen would be equivalent to Apple making 1920x1200 the default on its rMBP15 (144 vs 147 ppi equivalents).

But all that is not related to the aspect ratio as you presented it first, it's the [software/logic] resolution that allows you to then say it's a more "productive" screen.

the screen in the SP3 is also larger than in the Air:
Yes, you're right 66.7 sq. in. vs 57.6 sq. in. if you talk about physical size (I meant surface in term of pixels as a unit, not physically, and still considering it at 1080x720).
much more vertical space and just a very small amount of less horizontal space.
Physically yes, but not at 2x, which was how was compared the two screens.

So, the SP3 screen is better for productivity than the screen in the 11-inch Air: larger, more vertical space, and higher resolution.
Used at 1440x960, yes definitely more space than on the native resolution of the MBA11, no debate. That's not what was in discussion. If you're able to cope with a small UI, you could then consider a 11.6"@1600x900 screen is at least as much "productive", although being 16:9. But that's not how I approached the comparison, you also have to keep the pixel density in a reasonable range for 1x usage.

The only way to compare any given [range of] size of screen at any aspect ratio would be at fixed pixel density equivalent ideally, and then you could say a 12" 3:2 screen offers of course a larger surface than a 16:9 11.6" screen (both physically and in term of resolution as we'd be at fixed pixel size).
 
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