1.1.1 Jailbreak Complete, Security Ramifications

[EagerDragon]

Love how some people here are smarter than Steve and the board of directors and can tell Apple exactly how to run their business.

Do you know where they are heading?
Do you know what products are in the pipeline?
Do you know how they plan to integrate them and make people want them?
Are you one of their desired customers or just someone they could not refuse selling to?

 

[madmaxmedia]

Yep, I edited my earlier post to add a comment about that Madmax...I guess it just all ties together in my mind as the effort to open up the iPhone is not soley about 3rd party apps but also who you can use it with, but I'll try to stick more to the apps discussion only.

Yeah. I mean the 2 are related in that achieving one helps the other, but they are different.

But because they are related, I can't see how Apple could act in any other way than they are now- patching against any jailbreak methods that are developed. And I say that as a Touch owner who wants to jailbreak and play around with my iPod, but obviously have no vested interest in iPhone SIM unlocking.

 

[amcclay]

Apple's Responsibility

I don't think anybody here is arguing against Apple's RIGHT to 'fix' things that may or may not be wrong with the iPhone. Nobody has a 'right' to have Apple accommodate their every need on the iPhone.

People who hack their iPhone's also have a responsibility to acknowledge the inherent danger of treading into an unregulated frontier of experimentation.

At the same time, it is reasonable that many people who have stuck by Apple through the highs, lows and highs again have some expectations about how they might behave toward their users. Indeed, there were some signals about Apple taking a 'neutral' stance on 3rd party apps etc.

Apple could very well have seen a serious vulnerability and potential for problems with the previous unencrypted file system and decided to fix it as a means of protecting the users. That is plausible.

What is NOT plausible is that Apple saw some reason to deny its users the ability to add their own ringtones on a device that has, as part of its main functionality, the ability to play any sound (mp3) that a user adds to it. This is one area, where it is fair and RIGHT to criticize apple's behavior. People have a right to A.) voice their complaints about it, and B.) find ways to circumvent such an unreasonable restriction on a device that they own.

You may disagree with this and that's fine - then don't write to Apple requesting this, and certainly don't try to get ringtones on your phone because they are not "apple approved". But what you shouldn't do is spend your time "whining" about others who wish to see the situation improve and are taking steps to remedy it in lieu of Apple doing it themselves.

Again, people expect more from Apple. And, I for one - after defending them through thick and thin feel it is proper to do so.

People jumping up and down angry at the iPhone hackers simply look like control freaks obsessed with what other people might be doing to their iPhones. I'll leave political leanings out of this except to say, that this smacks of various other desires of people to impose restrictions on others in an arbitrary way rather than "live and let live".

In short: If you don't like hacked iPhones, don't hack one.

 

[EagerDragon]

Any and all security related holes will be patched by Apple even if it does not result in unlocking or un-approved 3rd party apps.

They would be liable in court if they knew of a vulnerability and did nothing about it, which it resulted in people being affected.

Those lawsuits they will loose quick and their stock would decline.

 

[Rustus Maximus]

I don't think anybody here is arguing against Apple's RIGHT to 'fix' things that may or may not be wrong with the iPhone. Nobody has a 'right' to have Apple accommodate their every need on the iPhone. People who hack their iPhone's also have a responsibility to acknowledge the inherent danger of treading into an unregulated frontier of experimentation.

Hey we agree...but then I read on and get...

What is NOT plausible is that Apple saw some reason to deny its users the ability to add their own ringtones on a device that has, as part of its main functionality, the ability to play any sound (mp3) that a user adds to it. This is one area, where it is fair and RIGHT to criticize apple's behavior. People have a right to A.) voice their complaints about it, and B.) find ways to circumvent such an unreasonable restriction on a device that they own.

I don't think it's a question of plausibility as much as it is most likely the long smelly finger of the record companies again (whom Apple has to deal with a great deal if you recall their little iTunes store.) If you sniff you'll also catch a good whiff of capitalism in that Apple also sees a way to continue growing their revenue stream to a degree with the previously mentioned iTunes store.

Also, yes you have the right to complain and voice that towards Apple. However you do not have the right to break contractual agreements or meddle in the internal functions of the iPhone...you have the freedom to do so if you wish...just as Apple has the right AND the freedom to stop you or try to.

But what you shouldn't do is spend your time "whining" about others who wish to see the situation improve and are taking steps to remedy it in lieu of Apple doing it themselves.

Again, people expect more from Apple. And, I for one - after defending them through thick and thin feel it is proper to do so.

People jumping up and down angry at the iPhone hackers simply look like control freaks obsessed with what other people might be doing to their iPhones. In short: If you don't like hacked iPhones, don't hack one.

I don't care what you do to your iPhone. I stated it earlier, I for one am not angry or upset or whining or seeking to drive down into the fiery pits of utter damnation and burning control those who choose to hack their phones. In short: If you like hacked iPhones, hack one.

You stated earlier that..."Nobody has a 'right' to have Apple accommodate their every need on the iPhone."

Then you say here essentially that "unless they do it then we sure will!!". So, do it...live with the consequences when Apple cracks or otherwise inhibits your desire to do that since they are obviously not ready to allow it for whatever the reason. It isn't Apple's fault, they will open it up when and if they decide to.

I'll leave political leanings out of this except to say, that this smacks of various other desires of people to impose restrictions on others in an arbitrary way rather than "live and let live".

If you were gonna 'leave political leanings out of it' you wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

"Live and Let Live"...ie..."Let me do whatever I want to the iPhone....even if it breaks it then I have to call your tech support and increase your costs and overhead to support my own risky decision to 'fix' your obviously broken product and I will tell all my friends how Apple is the suxxorz because they won't open this thing up

 

[matticus008]

The ultimate irony - Jobs in bed and capitulating to AT&T, the company that, 30 years ago he was "commiting crimes" against.

That's not irony; that's evolution. At some point the rebel must become the establishment--it's part of the natural order of things. If the rebels all stay rebels, they eventually lose anything to rebel against.

Hacking a phone doesn't even come close to changing the world...if anything, the idea that the iPhone and whether you can play Tetris on it is a substantive issue is what people should be rebelling against. Talk about self-obsessed consumerism run rampant.

 

[BTW]

so much for OS X security....

I'd rather have a secure web browser and some decent Apple-approved applications, then install this.

This is certainly a good trial-by-fire exercise for Apple. Hackers didn't seem to care too much about the OSX platform on the Macs, since it is a open development platform and they didn't have much to gain. Now the iPhone has spun that around. This will be good for all flavors (or flavours if you prefer) of OSX and Safari.

I'd bet the iPhone dev team has other exploit routes to go down and don't want to publish those unless they have to (a.k.a Apple patches 1.1.1).

 

[guzhogi]

I think that people should be able to hack their phones if they want to, but at their own risk. Yet, after a few months (1.5 years at most), Apple should open the iPhone up to native 3rd party apps so people wouldn't need to hack their iPhones. Not just web based ones. I say after a few months b/c I want Apple to have time to get the iPhone firmware as stable as possible 1st.

With the iPhone, and any product/service for that matter, people shouldn't be content w/ just what's out there. People should let the companies know what they want and make them provide it. If not, we get stagnation & crappy products.

 

[Virgil-TB2]

the entitlement problem

I remember reading other iPhone threads and there have been several posts that said that if you're not happy w/ the iPhone or how Apple handles it, get a different phone. That's a little BS b/c what if there's no phone out there you ARE happy with? ....

This is exactly what people are talking about though when they refer to the only problem being in the users exaggerated sense of entitlement.

This is you.

You are the one with the problem, because you seem to think that you have a right to have a phone with a feature-set that you are personally "happy" with.

This is not the way things work, nor have they ever. Whatever gave you the idea that the manufacturer is under an obligation to make a product that you are happy with?

Those "several posts" you are referring to above are absolutely right. The manufacturers make products, and you buy them if you like them, and don't buy them if you don't. That's just the way things are whether you are "happy" about it or not.

 

[guzhogi]

Love how some people here are smarter than Steve and the board of directors and can tell Apple exactly how to run their business.

Do you know where they are heading?
Do you know what products are in the pipeline?
Do you know how they plan to integrate them and make people want them?
Are you one of their desired customers or just someone they could not refuse selling to?

Maybe not smarter, but these companies are here to serve the consumer, not the other way around. Companies should do what their consumers want/need. People today are too concerned about getting $$$ and not enough about helping themselves & others.

 

[guzhogi]

This is exactly what people are talking about though when they refer to the only problem being in the users exaggerated sense of entitlement.

This is you.

You are the one with the problem, because you seem to think that you have a right to have a phone with a feature-set that you are personally "happy" with.

This is not the way things work, nor have they ever. Whatever gave you the idea that the manufacturer is under an obligation to make a product that you are happy with?

Those "several posts" you are referring to above are absolutely right. The manufacturers make products, and you buy them if you like them, and don't buy them if you don't. That's just the way things are whether you are "happy" about it or not.

True, but who says it has to stay that way? What if the colonial Americans were like that? If they were, there would be a USA. WHat we call Americans would all be English citizens right now.

 

[longofest]

I posted a lot of related posts stating most of what is stated in this article in the previous thread "

Preliminary iPhone 1.1.1 'Jailbreak', Ringtones Soon?

"

A little credit would not hurt.

We generally give credit to folks who use our submission form... You made some good points in that thread, but to be honest, I made the post without having read your comments. Use the submission link, and assuming 10 million people aren't submitting the same thing, you'll get the credit

 

[ruckus]

I remember reading other iPhone threads and there have been several posts that said that if you're not happy w/ the iPhone or how Apple handles it, get a different phone. That's a little BS b/c what if there's no phone out there you ARE happy with? I can understand these companies will want to do something a specific way, but it is we, the consumers, who should drive what features an item has, not necesarily the companies. Sure, some people want unrealistic things, but many things (like an NES emulator, IM app, etc.) are all very possible. So Apple & all companies should be more attentive to what people want and give them it.

Customers can make a change. But it works best by voting with your wallet. Me, for example, will not buy an iphone until it meets my requirements. Unfortunately, so man people bought one even though it didn't meet their requirements. A big way companies view how good their product is is by looking at the sales numbers.

If everyone who wanted 3rd party development on the iphone didn't buy one, I bet apple would be looking for a solution to this a lot closer.

Apple already got your sale, already got your 2 year contract. The consumers are voting, they are saying they don't care the phone is crippled, i'll take one anyway. For this reason, apple has no real drive to open up the iphone. I suspect they will someday, but apple is doing just fine w/o doing that.

I'm not the only one out there, but I vote with my wallet, and apple hasn't gotten my vote yet! (Although, i guess they did because I bought my fiance an iphone, because I know she doesn't really care about 3rd party apps )

 

[Unspeaked]

I'm not the only one out there, but I vote with my wallet, and apple hasn't gotten my vote yet! (Although, i guess they did because I bought my fiance an iphone, because I know she doesn't really care about 3rd party apps )

That is a hilarious closing line!

 

[xelphy]

When Leopard comes out you are going to miss a lot of nice features by not upgrading the iPhone. Since you did unlock it, you risk a brick.

Right, well in that case is there anyway to re-lock it so that I can successfully update it?

PS: I'll also have to see these 'new features' to believe them

 

[emotion]

I'm not the only one out there, but I vote with my wallet, and apple hasn't gotten my vote yet! (Although, i guess they did because I bought my fiance an iphone, because I know she doesn't really care about 3rd party apps )

Hahahahaha. Good post!

If you felt that strongly that voting with your wallet is the way to change the iphone for the better then why didn't you just convince your fiance to wait instead of working on some people on a forum?

 

[emotion]

Right, well in that case is there anyway to re-lock it so that I can successfully update it?

Depends on who unlocked it and the method. I suspect there's some methods that do indeed cause damage. Hence Apple's warning.

However, I do think Apple can make a phone that has been played around with, and the phone side doesn't work anymore, work again.

ie. make, what most people are incorrectly callng a brick, into a non-brick.

PS: I'll also have to see these 'new features' to believe them

I'd hate to miss out on syncing notes, todos and possibly even a2dp (which is in Leopard too).

In the future, what about when MMS and iChat appear? What about plugging serious security flaws? At what point do you jump? Are the 3rd party apps available now that good? (It's an honest question btw.)

 

[marcrumors]

enough already

Cant we all just get along?

Anti-hackers:
Dont like hacking? Dont do it. We've heard all the arguments why we shouldnt. Many people have told us all the reasons we're stupid for doing it. That's fine. Thats your opinion. But we're doing it or have already done it. And if we're excited about the news, we want to come to this thread and find out new info without having to sift through all your posts saying the same thing over and over.

Hackers:
Of which I am one. We like being able to do what we want with the product, whether its legal or not. We like the apps or another service provider. BUT we have to accept the responsibility for our actions. There were far too many warnings for anyone to have bricked their phone by updating to 1.1.1. And we have to accept that Apple wants to close it off. I dont agree with it, but thats how it is. We made a decision and we have to live with it without complaint.

But these threads are getting silly. Every thread has the same argument going on. I dont post much, because Im just here to get the news. But everything just degenerates into this empty rhetoric on both sides. I think we all get it. Some people like it, some people dont. Those that dont like it, can you not hijack threads to make the same arguments we all heard. Hackers, dont respond or complain. We know why we did it. We arent going to convince anyone else.

Thank you for your time.

 

[emotion]

Anti-hackers:
Dont like hacking? Dont do it. We've heard all the arguments why we shouldnt. Many people have told us all the reasons we're stupid for doing it. That's fine. Thats your opinion. But we're doing it or have already done it. And if we're excited about the news, we want to come to this thread and find out new info without having to sift through all your posts saying the same thing over and over.

Hackers:
Of which I am one. We like being able to do what we want with the product, whether its legal or not. We like the apps or another service provider. BUT we have to accept the responsibility for our actions. There were far too many warnings for anyone to have bricked their phone by updating to 1.1.1. And we have to accept that Apple wants to close it off. I dont agree with it, but thats how it is. We made a decision and we have to live with it without complaint.

Well said.

I think the frustration here is Apple's strategy. Both sides must be feeling that. Apple have handled this badly.

 

[guzhogi]

Customers can make a change. But it works best by voting with your wallet. Me, for example, will not buy an iphone until it meets my requirements. Unfortunately, so man people bought one even though it didn't meet their requirements. A big way companies view how good their product is is by looking at the sales numbers.

If everyone who wanted 3rd party development on the iphone didn't buy one, I bet apple would be looking for a solution to this a lot closer.

Apple already got your sale, already got your 2 year contract. The consumers are voting, they are saying they don't care the phone is crippled, i'll take one anyway. For this reason, apple has no real drive to open up the iphone. I suspect they will someday, but apple is doing just fine w/o doing that.

I'm not the only one out there, but I vote with my wallet, and apple hasn't gotten my vote yet! (Although, i guess they did because I bought my fiance an iphone, because I know she doesn't really care about 3rd party apps )

Very true. Only thing w/ that is what about the people who need a phone and everything else is total & utter cr@p? Sometimes, just holding off and not getting one is not an answer. Plus, people shouldn't just settle for the least of all evils, especially when the best option is still total cr@p.

 

[EagerDragon]

Maybe not smarter, but these companies are here to serve the consumer, not the other way around. Companies should do what their consumers want/need. People today are too concerned about getting $$$ and not enough about helping themselves & others.

Sorry, but that is an idialistic view.

They are here to make money for the shareholders. That is their function in life. If that means making customers happy most of the times, then more gravy. But sometimes that also means that a failrly small group will be unhappy. Most companies would kill for having a 80 to 90 customer approval. Apple does better than that.

Money first, that is what the shareholders want and they are the ones that approve/disapprove the board of directors for the company and as such the direction the company takes.

BTW Apple is an american company not a socialistic state, money is the bottom line. If the shareholders don't like the return, Steve and others need to find a new job.

 

[ruckus]

Hahahahaha. Good post!

If you felt that strongly that voting with your wallet is the way to change the iphone for the better then why didn't you just convince your fiance to wait instead of working on some people on a forum?

I have become my own worst enemy! haha...truthfully, she didn't want an iphone, i had to convince her she wanted it. (long story, her phone was run over by a car, she wanted the same phone, but if I'm going to spend $350 blah blah)

But I do suspect my gripes with the phone will be resolved, and it is a pretty cool toy nonetheless. I just wanted to play with it sometimes while still "not voting with my wallet". But, I wallow in my hypocrisy.

...and I look at it this way: I get two votes, I only voted once. The next I'm reserving!

 

[goosnarrggh]

The difference is that one is legal and one is not. Hacking the iPhone is consistent with your full use and enjoyment of the product, so long as you remain lawfully accessing the provider's network and so long as you do not infringe on anyone's property rights in doing so. You are not making illegal copies or violating an explicit agreement. Putting OS X on a PC is a clear violation of license terms to the software, just as putting the iPhone OS on a Nokia would be.

Matticus, in my interpretaton, you've got it exactly backwards.

People who "hack" their iPhone willy nilly with the open-ended intent of installing any arbitrary 3rd party application are in material breach of Apple's EULA. As such, Apple, if it so chose, could sue all such people with copyright infringement, and would have a fair chance of winning.

People whose sole intent in jailbreaking their iPhone was to install a piece of SIM-unlock software, are arguably NOT in violation of the EULA. It is the the language of the EULA itself, in light of the DMCA exemption, that leads me to that conclusion. I've explained my reasoning previously in other threads, so I really don't want to get into it again if you don't mind.

If those SIM-unlocked people have already activated a service agreement with AT&T, then they are still contractually required to pay the early termination fee or else they'll still be on the hook for paying the prescribed monthly service fees, regardless of whether they go on to use it or not. But that's an issue that's up to AT&T to pursue.

If those SIM-unlocked people never activated their phones on the AT&T network in the first place, then they have not entered into a contract with AT&T, so AT&T has no standing in the matter. Only Apple's software EULA is applicable, and again, I hold that agreement has *not* been violated.

Now let me clarify - I am not convinced that Apple has any obligation to provide warranty support for any bricked iPhones that have been hacked in any way at all. I just don't agree that people who have SIM-unlocked iPhones have necessarily done anything illegal.

 

[sachamun]

All your desires and wishes aside, how can people be mad or frustrated with Apple when it was clear from day 1 that iphone would not support 3rd party apps? That was the deal, and you bought into it. If you get any more than that, you should be happy. I don't like it either, but if you don't like something, don't buy it.

 

[iJed]

I've just jailbroken and installed installer.app on my iPod touch using this guide. Its not yet the simplest process but it was by no means difficult. Took me about 30 mins to get fully working. Obviouly I did not do the iPhone only stuff.