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11" MacBook Air Owner Connects High-End Graphics Card With Complex Thunderbolt Setup

nando4 said:
The PE4L has a switch (SW1) where a user can set a 0, 500ms or 6.9s PCI Reset Delay. Sonnet/Magma/OWC products do not have that requiring a circuit workaround to do it. Without it you *might* be able to get UEFI mode to work. I say might because we've had numerous users have iGPU activation issues on 11/13" MBA/MBP systems. MBR/BIOS mode as setup by Bootcamp has no iGPU issues but the system simply will not boot in that mode without the PCI Reset Delay.



Turns out the PMD (with HD6650M/HD7670M) attached to the Sony Z2/Z3 Lightpeak (LP) port is also a 10Gbps link just like Thunderbolt. Sony never bothered to allow an external desktop video card via it's proprietary LP port. So MikJoa completely ignored the LP port and instead cut a hole in his Z3 and wired up an eGPU using the x1 2.0 (5Gbps) mPCIe wifi slot. From DIY eGPU guide for sony VAIO VPC-Z2 & SVZ13:

Image

Seeking Intel/Apple cooperation

The pressure is on for Intel/Apple to stop resisting TB eGPUs, allowing manufacturers to create affordable solutions for their users to enjoy. Else we'll continue to see more hacks via mPCIe slots as workarounds.

Had Intel been more cooperative we would have seen eGPUs over 4 years go. Rather than cooperate, Intel did the opposite and locked down features like user-settable x2/x4 southbridge ports (starting Series-6) preventing ganging mPCIe/expresscard slots to extract multi-lane bandwidth. Does Intel suffer oppositional conduct disorder?
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Thanks for the info!
 
I'm honestly excited to see some sort of affordable PCIe-to-Thunderbolt solution come out for video cards. I've got a Mac Mini just waiting for this sort of thing.
 
MachineShedFred said:
This was done over a year ago, and in a better way, by Netkas. Why go TB > ExpressCard > PCIe, when you can just go TB > PCIe?

I mean, if you like complexity, multiple bridge interfaces, and a spaghetti of wire, that's cool. But I'd rather use something that is available, supported, and just plain better.

See: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=885028&Q=&is=REG&A=details
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PCIe card minimum guaranteed power: 25 W

Try to find a decent GPU that operates at 25W. You're going to be looking a long time because it doesn't exist. Good GPUs operate at hundreds of watts.
 
Tech198 said:
A Macbook Air is designed to be portable, but u can't exactly play games this setup on the road can you ? The PC card came out of a PC, therefore the PC is nearby .... Why use a mac then ? other than just the show that it can be played over TB with smooth frame rates...
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I don't have a gaming machine. I use a 17" MBP with a 6750M for gaming, and it's a wee bit lacking in the horsepower department, but not enough that I would want to buy a gaming machine. However, a friend just offered me his old 5770 card for free, and with a $80 adapter (the one in the video) and $30 PSU, I can drive it with this setup. Let's throw the setup in a $40 mid-tower case to keep the cats off my GPU.

eGPU gaming rig: $150 (plus I owe the guy some sushi)
Traditional gaming PC: $500+
 
afawcett said:
that's really cool. im sure countless people said this wasn't possible, but i'm glad someone persisted until it worked.
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+ 1, and agree with the sentiment.

I have very little understanding of gaming, at least as most people seem to understand it today (playing wholly unrealistic shoot'em up's while wanting realistic video). Whether this hacker's solution is practical only because he's pumping all the pixels back to the small screen of the 11" MBA is a distinct possibility.

OTOH, he's also using only half the bandwidth of a TB1 interface, which again is only half of the bandwidth of TB2, So...

While the fact remains that even TB2 does not offer the full bandwidth of PCIe, TB2 should offer enough bandwidth to make the use of GPU's over TB2 a practical endeavor...

RGDS,
 
As a long-time MBA user, I dont get the point of this setup as it goes against the core principles behind a MBA.

A MBA is all about mobile productivity: a fair compromise between consumer-level performance and excellent mobility... so, under that definition, what hardcore gamer would buy a MBA?!?! and, in the other and what MBA customer would care for 90 FPS in a game?!?!

It's like the new 4x4 off-road Ferrari... what is the point of that?!
 
KohPhiPhi said:
As a long-time MBA user, I dont get the point of this setup as it goes against the core principles behind a MBA.

A MBA is all about mobile productivity: a fair compromise between consumer-level performance and excellent mobility... so, under that definition, what hardcore gamer would buy a MBA?!?! and, in the other and what MBA customer would care for 90 FPS in a game?!?!

It's like the new 4x4 off-road Ferrari... what is the point of that?!
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You're very close-minded.
 
What caught my eye the most was the cost comments and the double-edged sword of how Intel is constraining vendors...yeah, it helps prevent junk, but the "tax" sounds surprisingly high...I think I literally read the word "usury"!


-hh
 
-hh said:
What caught my eye the most was the cost comments and the double-edged sword of how Intel is constraining vendors...yeah, it helps prevent junk, but the "tax" sounds surprisingly high...I think I literally read the word "usury"!


-hh
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It will be interesting to see how this setup will work with the next Mac Pro which has Thunderbolt 2.
 
donutbagel said:
Why carry around all that gaming equipment in your MBP everywhere you go if you are a person who only needs it at home? Besides, you can upgrade this, and you can't upgrade a MBP's GPU.
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How can you upgrade an MBA's GPU but not a MBP? I didn't read the whole thing because I gave up understanding all the innards of computers a long while ago. But logic tells me that if this was done using Thunderbolt then it should work on an MBP.

I do think this kind of an upgrade could be neat if it were much easier. I have an iMac, which is pretty much not upgradable. But if some external device were available to boost processing power, that would be awesome. I really would like my boot drive to be an SSD, but I really don't want to pay about $500 for a similar storage capacity (500GB) when I'm about to drop at least $300 on an iPhone.
 
Michael CM1 said:
How can you upgrade an MBA's GPU but not a MBP? I didn't read the whole thing because I gave up understanding all the innards of computers a long while ago. But logic tells me that if this was done using Thunderbolt then it should work on an MBP.

I do think this kind of an upgrade could be neat if it were much easier. I have an iMac, which is pretty much not upgradable. But if some external device were available to boost processing power, that would be awesome. I really would like my boot drive to be an SSD, but I really don't want to pay about $500 for a similar storage capacity (500GB) when I'm about to drop at least $300 on an iPhone.
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This does work on a MBP, it's actually be done quite a while ago, seems like no one has really caught on to this amazing tech. Yes you lose portability but who honestly games on the go, I'm talking about core gamers here. This does make it an easier option to take to lan.

Below is vids on a 13" retina
Although it is quite an expensive setup I think this could be the future of desktop PC's now being more mobile while having the power for more graphical intense software.

Starcraft 2
http://youtu.be/KX0JOKawu90

Diablo 3
http://youtu.be/EC3lietNVlY

Dirt 3
http://youtu.be/0yMZLXJuOyQ

Borderlands 2
http://youtu.be/anzmnq96-GI
 
Michael CM1 said:
How can you upgrade an MBA's GPU but not a MBP? I didn't read the whole thing because I gave up understanding all the innards of computers a long while ago. But logic tells me that if this was done using Thunderbolt then it should work on an MBP.

I do think this kind of an upgrade could be neat if it were much easier. I have an iMac, which is pretty much not upgradable. But if some external device were available to boost processing power, that would be awesome. I really would like my boot drive to be an SSD, but I really don't want to pay about $500 for a similar storage capacity (500GB) when I'm about to drop at least $300 on an iPhone.
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I think the other poster meant that you can upgrade the external Thunderbolt GPU, not the MBA's.

The iMac is upgradable, you can upgrade nearly everything but the GPU and you can use Thunderbolt for that anyway.
 
pastrychef said:
Ah yes. How could I have missed that...
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No problem. There's a lot of points which (unfortunately) are being overlooked in this general discussion ... this thread as well as the one in News which is running in parallel.

I could start a bullet list:


  • This is newsworthy because it shows that a Macbook Air doesn't always have to be only a lightweight, light weight laptop.
  • The specific performance bottleneck present here is due to the series of adaptors being used
  • Yes, there's "better" TB solutions than this klunge, but they cost much, much more.
    --> Which is newsworthy because it illustrates just how much markup ($$$) exists on certified TB solutions;
    --> And which also illustrates that self-serving business interests are apparently stifling such innovation.

FWIW, I personally like the idea of having a nice TB-compatible LCD display which has a nice, robust PCIe slot built into it to afford a modular graphics card solution and performance boost for a docked laptop. Unfortunately, I'm a bit doubtful that Apple would really want to offer just such a product, even though it would go a long ways to help justify spending $1K for a genuine Apple 27" LCD versus the $611.96 for a generic Dell 27" Ultrasharp at Amazon.com.

-hh
 
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-hh said:
No problem. There's a lot of points which (unfortunately) are being overlooked in this general discussion ... this thread as well as the one in News which is running in parallel.

I could start a bullet list:


  • This is newsworthy because it shows that a Macbook Air doesn't always have to be only a lightweight, light weight laptop.
  • The specific performance bottleneck present here is in the one TB adaptor
  • Yes, there's "better" TB solutions than this klunge, but they cost much, much more.
    --> Which is newsworthy because it illustrates just how much markup ($$$) exists on certified TB solutions;
    --> And which also illustrates that self-serving business interests are apparently stifling such innovation.

FWIW, I personally like the idea of having a nice TB-compatible LCD display which has a nice, robust PCIe slot built into it to afford a modular graphics card solution and performance boost for a docked laptop. Unfortunately, I'm a bit doubtful that Apple would really want to offer just such a product, even though it would go a long ways to help justify spending $1K for a genuine Apple 27" LCD versus the $611.96 for a generic Dell 27" Ultrasharp at Amazon.com.

-hh
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Actually the real bottleneck is that a Thunderbolt to expresscard adapter and then an expresscard yo PCIe is being used. This gives you about 10% of the performance you would get if you just used a TB to PCIe adapter.
 
ihuman:D said:
Actually the real bottleneck is that a Thunderbolt to expresscard adapter and then an expresscard yo PCIe is being used. This gives you about 10% of the performance you would get if you just used a TB to PCIe adapter.
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The above information is incorrect by a significant margin.

Thunderbolt is 10Gbps, Expresscard 2.0 is 5Gbps. Real-world performance testing of the difference between them when running a NVidia Fermi/Keplar card whose driver engage pci-e compression with the x1 (5Gbps) link but not the 10Gbps link at 2012 13" MBP + GTX660Ti + HD7870 (TH05 @ x2 2.0) find it to be between 6% and 15% on average:

What performance benefit does x2 2.0 give over x1 2.0?

* external LCD: +6.3% max=18.1%;
* internal LCD Optimus: +14.6% max=40.8%]

Users with IVB/SB expresscard/mPCIe eGPU implementations would likely want to know how much better performance would a Thunderbolt eGPU provide.

We see external LCD sees only +6.3% with max 18.1% performance improvement over x1 2.0. This means the sample benchmarks
are not taxing the pci-e bus. The extra bandwidth showing it's significance when running in internal LCD mode where both Optimus and Virtu benefit significantly from the increased bandwidth.
Click to expand...
 
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