Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Your narrow view of haptic feedback relies on an entire device vibrating to supposedly simulate the feedback on one particular point.
How quaint!
So... when the Android phone you mentioned has "haptic" feedback on the keyboard, do you think it is actually vibrating beneath where you touch it on the keyboard?? It is NOT. Obviously. There is only one vibrator in your phone. It is the same one that vibes when you get a call, text, or email. This rudimentary tech relies on your brain tricking you... that is; you expect to feel something directly under your finger, so when your entire phone vibrates, you imagine that it is vibrating only where you touched it. Again... it is NOT.
Now, in Apple's patent they envision over 1,00 ACTUAL points of haptic feedback. So, for example... as you drag an item closer to an edge you can feel stronger resistance or if you flip an on screen switch you can actually feel it flip. This is beyond amazing! This is game changing.
To try to call this future tech not innovative because of the current implementation of haptic feedback is laughable at best... & willfully naive at worst.
Even likening it to your little pet obsession of having a shading device come standard on our tablets is not even in the same realm.

In my opinion, of course.

The idea of 1,000 actual points of haptic feedback is way far down the road to happen. The only good use out of it is for people who have blindness or half-blindness to feel around the text or objects. The problem, also, is that if this is Apple's attempt to touch the screen without LOOKING and feeling it will be problematic. A touchscreen is meant to be looked at, not FELT. Especially those who drive would be boneheaded to try that considering there are state laws banning using the phone in your hand while driving.

I don't think 1,000 points of haptic feedback is compelling to anyone except for those who are gamers who need the feel of analog buttons or controllers. This is probably the only thing I can think of why Apple is looking into it, even though it doesn't hold a candle to the real handheld controllers.

That's like asking a military pilot to fly a plane using touchscreen controls or an Indy race car driver to use touch screens to drive.

Analog is king, not digital.

As for the pet obsession as a 'shading device'. You continue to display ignorance and bias, not an opinion. The stylus is NOT a shading device and that's not how it works with digital art. Blending is the word, not shading. It's how artists take one color and mix another with a certain brush tool via Photoshop or Manga Studio Pro, for example. Or using a smudge tool as another method. Get your jargon right. And lastly, stylus will be here forever as it is standard for those who require accuracy.

And it's not a pet obsession but a professional requirement. What we do in the field is not 'finger' painting. Oh, even when you watch your favorite movies laden with special FX with CGI, those guys did NOT use their fingers to create them.

You'll have to wait about 20 years for 1,000 points of haptic feedback to happen. But by then, Apple won't be on top anymore. It'll be another company you've never heard of which wouldn't surprise me.

And I'll say it again, haptic feedback is still not innovative because it was already implemented years ago. In fact, I don't think using 1,000 points of haptic feedback translates well into a tablet such as the iPad. I'm more of the opinion that it would work much better with the virtual reality tech using gloves and goggles. It's the VR thing that's going to be big soon.

Seeing everything in 3D and using haptic feedback in the gloves to feel and grab objects in a 3-D operating system is much more interesting than feeling something on a flat screen.
 
The idea of 1,000 actual points of haptic feedback is way far down the road to happen. The only good use out of it is for people who have blindness or half-blindness to feel around the text or objects. The problem, also, is that if this is Apple's attempt to touch the screen without LOOKING and feeling it will be problematic. A touchscreen is meant to be looked at, not FELT. Especially those who drive would be boneheaded to try that considering there are state laws banning using the phone in your hand while driving.

I don't think 1,000 points of haptic feedback is compelling to anyone except for those who are gamers who need the feel of analog buttons or controllers. This is probably the only thing I can think of why Apple is looking into it, even though it doesn't hold a candle to the real handheld controllers.

That's like asking a military pilot to fly a plane using touchscreen controls or an Indy race car driver to use touch screens to drive.

Analog is king, not digital.

As for the pet obsession as a 'shading device'. You continue to display ignorance and bias, not an opinion. The stylus is NOT a shading device and that's not how it works with digital art. Blending is the word, not shading. It's how artists take one color and mix another with a certain brush tool via Photoshop or Manga Studio Pro, for example. Or using a smudge tool as another method. Get your jargon right. And lastly, stylus will be here forever as it is standard for those who require accuracy.

And it's not a pet obsession but a professional requirement. What we do in the field is not 'finger' painting. Oh, even when you watch your favorite movies laden with special FX with CGI, those guys did NOT use their fingers to create them.

You'll have to wait about 20 years for 1,000 points of haptic feedback to happen. But by then, Apple won't be on top anymore. It'll be another company you've never heard of which wouldn't surprise me.

And I'll say it again, haptic feedback is still not innovative because it was already implemented years ago. In fact, I don't think using 1,000 points of haptic feedback translates well into a tablet such as the iPad. I'm more of the opinion that it would work much better with the virtual reality tech using gloves and goggles. It's the VR thing that's going to be big soon.

Seeing everything in 3D and using haptic feedback in the gloves to feel and grab objects in a 3-D operating system is much more interesting than feeling something on a flat screen.

Lol, well we are going to just have to agree to disagree I think.
You picture one interface implementation & think it's the bees knees and that the one I picture is not as good or not as helpful to as many people... and I feel the EXACT same way about the one I picture & what you describe.
I will say however, that I find it hilarious that in your opinion having a visceral experience where you could actually feel & interact with every point of your screen would only be appreciated by gamers, and thus you dismiss it, I assume because you feel that is too small of a group to matter.
Yet you continually mention the EXTREMELY small space of people that are using their iPads to create FX and CGI for making movies.
You honestly couldn't be arguing my point any better!!! I assert that a silly stylus would be used by precious few (as a percentage, not a gross amount of users) & thus should NOT be included with the iPad in the near future.
You seem to feel the same way about it, yet want it included with everybody's tablet whether they want it or not... presumably because you are either too cheap or stubborn to just go buy one if you want one so badly!!!!!! It's an ACCESSORY for Christ's sake.
And I don't think in tech, a lot of patents are getting put out over 20 years before the possibility of them seeing the light of day. You are being purposefully obtuse.
Btw, the patent of which I speak directly describes a contoured screen, NOT flat... I'm not talking about pretending to press a button while the screen vibrates beneath your finger.(current haptics).. I'm talking about LITERALLY having the screen form a raised button that you interact with physically in that app, which disappears when you launch a different app. Devs will be able to code in whatever physical controls would be most useful in each app & they will be physically manifest in the UI.
If you seriously cannot separate this in your mind from current haptics & recognize it as innovation, I honestly feel for you. Despite whatever you were imagining, this will NOT be "only" compelling to gamers or the blind. 100% of tablet users will benefit from this.
So... the ball is again in your court. Please describe to me an implementation of the stylus which would be useful & used by all... not just the digital artist professionals you so love to describe.
 
What is "the Pauline Kael defense"?

Pauline Kael was a film critic with the New Yorker who observed about the 1968 US presidential landslide: " I can't believe Nixon won, all my friends voted for McGovern" (paraphrase)
 
Pauline Kael was a film critic with the New Yorker who observed about the 1968 US presidential landslide: " I can't believe Nixon won, all my friends voted for McGovern" (paraphrase)


Ahh..ok. I gathered from Googling her name that she was a film critic but didn't know what the particular reference was. Thanx for clearing it up.
 
Lol, well we are going to just have to agree to disagree I think.
You picture one interface implementation & think it's the bees knees and that the one I picture is not as good or not as helpful to as many people... and I feel the EXACT same way about the one I picture & what you describe.
I will say however, that I find it hilarious that in your opinion having a visceral experience where you could actually feel & interact with every point of your screen would only be appreciated by gamers, and thus you dismiss it, I assume because you feel that is too small of a group to matter.
Yet you continually mention the EXTREMELY small space of people that are using their iPads to create FX and CGI for making movies.
You honestly couldn't be arguing my point any better!!! I assert that a silly stylus would be used by precious few (as a percentage, not a gross amount of users) & thus should NOT be included with the iPad in the near future.
You seem to feel the same way about it, yet want it included with everybody's tablet whether they want it or not... presumably because you are either too cheap or stubborn to just go buy one if you want one so badly!!!!!! It's an ACCESSORY for Christ's sake.
And I don't think in tech, a lot of patents are getting put out over 20 years before the possibility of them seeing the light of day. You are being purposefully obtuse.
Btw, the patent of which I speak directly describes a contoured screen, NOT flat... I'm not talking about pretending to press a button while the screen vibrates beneath your finger.(current haptics).. I'm talking about LITERALLY having the screen form a raised button that you interact with physically in that app, which disappears when you launch a different app. Devs will be able to code in whatever physical controls would be most useful in each app & they will be physically manifest in the UI.
If you seriously cannot separate this in your mind from current haptics & recognize it as innovation, I honestly feel for you. Despite whatever you were imagining, this will NOT be "only" compelling to gamers or the blind. 100% of tablet users will benefit from this.
So... the ball is again in your court. Please describe to me an implementation of the stylus which would be useful & used by all... not just the digital artist professionals you so love to describe.

First off, gaming is one theory I had in mind why Apple would look into haptic feedback for the iOS platform due to complaints about the lack of precise control in hardcore games. I still find it odd why Apple would need 1,000 haptic points for such virtual buttons to be 'felt'.

Where is the point of that? You don't need to feel the buttons but to see them. You're touching the buttons on a touchscreen. And to a point, do your realize how much more expensive that would be for the iPad or iPhone to have this feature?

Not everyone wants that. There's nothing wrong with haptic feedback and I've experienced it many times in games over the years. But for other applications, I don't think it will work. Developers who make apps will have a huge headache in trying to figure out how to code the 1,000 points of feedback.

Besides, just because it's patented, it doesn't mean it'll be a reality. There was another patent by a smaller company that was going to create buttons that pop up from the keyboard and users can feel them. This wasn't Apple's idea but someone else's. I can see how it can work for keyboard use for touch-typing purposes but anything more than that would be extravagantly unnecessary.

When I looked up haptic feedback on phones, especially on Android, I've seen forums of users requesting how to turn them off. It must mean that they don't like the use of it on keyboards. If they don't like the idea of it, then it probably won't sit well with iOS users, or any other phone model.

As for CGI, that's not what I meant. I'm talking about using stylus on high-end graphic workstations in their production studios. You're twisting words here and you should KNOW better that professionals don't use iPads in their production studios for high-end FX creation and post-production work.

As for the 'precious few' is a misnomer. It's a huge industry ranging from graphic design, game production, publishing, CAD, industrial design and so on. Do you realize that that the car you drive was designed by an industrial designer who most likely used a CAD-based application with a 3-D mouse and a stylus? I know for a fact they do.

And the reason they use these stylus for their work is for precision and not to mention the reduction of RSI. A lot of professionals have said that using the stylus was far more natural than using the finger and reduces carpal tunnels/RSI. It's a fact.

So what if it's an accessory? Who cares? The stylus for the tablet and phone market has been getting better and have button switches on them to toggle as 'right click' functions or programmable to do other things, if desired. In fact, some of the stylus from Wacom have digital erasers on top, so if you want to erase something, you flip it and it'll erase something for you. It's far, far more natural than just using a finger by selecting an eraser that takes an extra step to do.

For people who use a stylus will benefit from precise note taking. I'll give you an example. A college student who needs to take notes in a lecture can do so with the stylus that has a fine nib on it, comfortably gliding across the screen. It's far more natural than using a finger.

Or a professional business executive in a meeting has to jot something down during a presentation can do the same thing, too. Or how about a contractor who's hired to renovate, say, a kitchen and goes over some ideas with the client on how to change it around using the stylus to create a conceptual?

EDIT: I've seen videos of professionals using stylus on a large digital whiteboard so that's not unusual to see especially when using a mobile device to stream on the screen live. Why? Because it's as natural as holding a pen/pencil.

And when I say about the use of VR ( virtual reality ) with haptic feedback, I wasn't kidding. This isn't for gaming alone. You should know that the use of VR with goggles is going to become a big thing soon besides gaming applications. Professionals can use a 3-D environment to build something for a presentation.

In fact, I know a guy in my state who has a small company that uses the Oculus VR to present his 'virtual walkthroughs' of his architectural projects for clients to experience, especially from a distance. And if they ever utilize haptic feedback, users can feel the walls and switches, or open windows with the gloves, interacting with the environment.

That stuff is in the works already and one Japanese team of developers is involved in that new endeavor which is seen here:

http://www.miraisens.com/news2en/news2.htm

Or another example of the UK team using haptic in holograms seen here:

http://news.discovery.com/tech/gear-and-gadgets/haptic-holograms-touchy-feely-141205.htm

Here's what I'm talking about the use of virtual objects and haptic use of touching:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/26/dexmo-virtual-reality-exoskeleton/

This is excellent use for education, training, and other any other purposes.

Again, I don't think 1,000 points of haptic feedback on the tablet or phone makes sense now. Not when VR is coming around the corner and is literally here with improved technology.

And if you think Apple is alone on this, think again. Microsoft is doing this too but for the 3-D environment:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/news/features/3-dhaptic-060413.aspx

Haptic feedback on 3-D makes a LOT more sense than just a flat screen. However, if this is going to be used on a tablet or phone, I would say it would be limited in some capacity for accessibility purposes and not a killer feature.

I don't think it makes sense for Apple to compete with the VR market with 1,000 points of haptic feedback. If you think feeling a page turn as the only exciting thing, the novelty is going to wear off fast. And I would not be surprised if Amazon beats Apple to the punch with this on their future Kindle devices.
 
One more thing. . .

@Tycho24

Oh, and one more thing to drive the point home:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-just-patented-idea-steve-180312915.html

Apple just patented an idea that counters Steve's point of view on styluses and I think it's on par with the topic of the 12.2 inch iPad Air Plus since if they do manage to release this iOS device, then it stands to reason it would be their next product to complement it.
 
I won't be surprised if Apple copies the Microsoft Surface 3 Pro. They already copied the Samsung Phablet thingie

The Surface 3 pro was a preemptive copy of what the iPad Pro was expected to be, like the Samsung Galaxy Tab Pro. The rumors had already leaked out of Apple long before the Surface 3 Pro was launched. Kind of like how Apple was reportedly working on a smartwatch and suddenly Samsung and everyone under the sun launched one. Pebble was the only significant manufacturer I know of that already had one, but theirs wasn't very useful. Companies don't like looking like they copied anyone but that's basically what they did so this post is ironic.
You can say that about the Samsung Phablet, but the difference is Apple made the form factor much more useful. The way my 6 Plus is designed, it doesn't feel much bigger than my iPhone 5 did. If I ever don't want to stretch my thumb I just use the Reachability feature.
 
I won't be surprised if Apple copies the Microsoft Surface 3 Pro. They already copied the Samsung Phablet thingie

Did Samsung invent 4.7 and 5.5 screens? All the manufacturers use screens those similar sizes, so they all copied Samsung, and Apple didn't, till now.

Who copied auto transmissions, electric windows, ABS? If you knew anything about patents, you would know that certain things become standard, and certain things are not copying. Who holds the patents for 15.6 laptop screens>

How many manufacturers have Windows touch tablets? Did they all copy the Surface?

It seems that your copying comment doesnt actually include Apple, it includes most other manufacturers.
 
Just bought my wife a Dell XPS 18. She loves the thing. I wish Apple had a device like it or the Surface. I really think that where tablets and laptops are headed now.
 
The Surface 3 pro was a preemptive copy of what the iPad Pro was expected to be, like the Samsung Galaxy Tab Pro. The rumors had already leaked out of Apple long before the Surface 3 Pro was launched. Kind of like how Apple was reportedly working on a smartwatch and suddenly Samsung and everyone under the sun launched one. Pebble was the only significant manufacturer I know of that already had one, but theirs wasn't very useful. Companies don't like looking like they copied anyone but that's basically what they did so this post is ironic.
You can say that about the Samsung Phablet, but the difference is Apple made the form factor much more useful. The way my 6 Plus is designed, it doesn't feel much bigger than my iPhone 5 did. If I ever don't want to stretch my thumb I just use the Reachability feature.
I agree. There were a few things about the SP3 that seemed "rushed" compared to the 2nd gen Surface devices. From the relatively short timing between the release of the 2nd gen devices and announcement of the SP3, the glued-on loop to hold the stylus, to the sudden dropping of things (like "Blades") that were showcased at the 2nd gen unveiling.

I'm hoping that Apple is able to produce an iPad Pro (or whatever it would be called) that works smoothly and seamlessly.
 
The Surface 3 pro was a preemptive copy of what the iPad Pro was expected to be, like the Samsung Galaxy Tab Pro. The rumors had already leaked out of Apple long before the Surface 3 Pro was launched. Kind of like how Apple was reportedly working on a smartwatch and suddenly Samsung and everyone under the sun launched one. Pebble was the only significant manufacturer I know of that already had one, but theirs wasn't very useful. Companies don't like looking like they copied anyone but that's basically what they did so this post is ironic.
You can say that about the Samsung Phablet, but the difference is Apple made the form factor much more useful. The way my 6 Plus is designed, it doesn't feel much bigger than my iPhone 5 did. If I ever don't want to stretch my thumb I just use the Reachability feature.

Are you serious?

I agree. There were a few things about the SP3 that seemed "rushed" compared to the 2nd gen Surface devices. From the relatively short timing between the release of the 2nd gen devices and announcement of the SP3, the glued-on loop to hold the stylus, to the sudden dropping of things (like "Blades") that were showcased at the 2nd gen unveiling.

I'm hoping that Apple is able to produce an iPad Pro (or whatever it would be called) that works smoothly and seamlessly.

Surface Pro: February 2013
Surface Pro 2: October 2013 (8 months later)
Surface Pro 3: June 2014 (8 months later)

I hope they're not sticking with that quick pace or anything, but let's not pretend it was rushed out.
 
Surface Pro: February 2013
Surface Pro 2: October 2013 (8 months later)
Surface Pro 3: June 2014 (8 months later)

I hope they're not sticking with that quick pace or anything, but let's not pretend it was rushed out.
I was very specific in mentioning the RELEASE of the Surface Pro 2 and the ANNOUNCEMENT of Surface Pro 3.
Release of Surface Pro 2:October 22, 2013
Announcement/demo of Surface Pro 3: May 20, 2014
That's 7 months... that is a short time especially considering that there was far more changes between SP2 -> SP3 than there was between SP1 -> SP2.

When a company like Microsoft produces a stylus solution that involves an adhesive sticky loop to be attached by the consumer as THE solution, any reasonable person would conclude that SOMETHING was rushed. ;)
 
I was very specific in mentioning the RELEASE of the Surface Pro 2 and the ANNOUNCEMENT of Surface Pro 3.
Release of Surface Pro 2:October 22, 2013
Announcement/demo of Surface Pro 3: May 20, 2014
That's 7 months... that is a short time especially considering that there was far more changes between SP2 -> SP3 than there was between SP1 -> SP2.

When a company like Microsoft produces a stylus solution that involves an adhesive sticky loop to be attached by the consumer as THE solution, any reasonable person would conclude that SOMETHING was rushed. ;)

Did the Pro 2 or 1 have a good pen solution?
 
Magnetically attaching the the pen was at least an attempt at designing a solution.

If you don't think that manually attaching a sticky loop seems rushed, then I'm not going to try to convince to think otherwise.

I thought it was ill thought, yes.

I think that was only rushed thing about the system, though. To me, the SP 3 is the realization of what the first gen should have been.
 
What I meant was that Apple was against a big phone, a small tablet and a tablet/PC hybrid.

Then Apple launched a big phone and a small tablet, the only thing left is a tablet/PC hybrid.

Using your analogy, is the same as Chevrolet says "Fords automatic transmission is a flop", then it release a chevy with automatic transmission.

Did Samsung invent 4.7 and 5.5 screens? All the manufacturers use screens those similar sizes, so they all copied Samsung, and Apple didn't, till now.

Who copied auto transmissions, electric windows, ABS? If you knew anything about patents, you would know that certain things become standard, and certain things are not copying. Who holds the patents for 15.6 laptop screens>

How many manufacturers have Windows touch tablets? Did they all copy the Surface?

It seems that your copying comment doesnt actually include Apple, it includes most other manufacturers.


----------

My post was ironic, thanks

The Surface 3 pro was a preemptive copy of what the iPad Pro was expected to be, like the Samsung Galaxy Tab Pro. The rumors had already leaked out of Apple long before the Surface 3 Pro was launched. Kind of like how Apple was reportedly working on a smartwatch and suddenly Samsung and everyone under the sun launched one. Pebble was the only significant manufacturer I know of that already had one, but theirs wasn't very useful. Companies don't like looking like they copied anyone but that's basically what they did so this post is ironic.
You can say that about the Samsung Phablet, but the difference is Apple made the form factor much more useful. The way my 6 Plus is designed, it doesn't feel much bigger than my iPhone 5 did. If I ever don't want to stretch my thumb I just use the Reachability feature.
 
What I meant was that Apple was against a big phone, a small tablet and a tablet/PC hybrid.

Then Apple launched a big phone and a small tablet, the only thing left is a tablet/PC hybrid.

Using your analogy, is the same as Chevrolet says "Fords automatic transmission is a flop", then it release a chevy with automatic transmission.



----------

My post was ironic, thanks

As opposed to his, which was just laughable.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.