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dferrara said:
... [snip]

That Sony has a Radeon 9700, faster FSB, it's lighter, has a better display... and are you ready for this? A 2 MB L2 CACHE! Comparing the 12" PB to this machine is somewhat of a joke. In performance, the Sony will kick the PB in the nuts. In design, the PB makes the Sony look like an ugly toaster oven.
... [snip]

hmmm, well, it's also larger and more expensive than the 12" PB, so it better be faster in certain ways ... though it still doesn't offer internal DVD-burning and more than 1GB of RAM. Compare to the 15" for more such unfavorable comparisons, like double the RAM and VRAM ceilings, for starters ... yeah, those can affect performance a wee bit sometimes. Raw speed as experienced by the user depends on a lot of things. I will never disagree with you on the FSB/Cache stuff, but to say this Vaio is a better performer simply because of those facts just ignores too much reality. It is a better performer in some things, maybe in most things I don't disagree, but it is not simply a better performer, period, end of story. As we seem to agree, to each his own (computer).

And by the way, can we get off this ridiculous "image" thing? EVERY company has some sort of image, and if you want to buy based on whatever that is, go ahead, I just don't think it's worth discussing here.
 
Epic battle pc vs. mac

Apple's focus is really on the user and for the vast majority of users how you interact with the product is more important then clock speed and a slew of preformance specs. Ask Apple users how many would go back to pc's. Apple's market share is growing at a rapid pace. The reason, users are tiring of all the additional head aches associated not only with XP but mass produced form factors that are a hodgepodge of uncompatable hardware. Owning a pc just takes more effort. A mac is designed to make the computing experience enjoyable and elegant. Afficandos will always argue for performance numbers while the rest of us just want to buy a machine that works well and is a pleasure to use. Apple has hit its stride and I hope it continues to get better.
 
dferrara said:
Um, sorry... no.

Great example of a Mac user being blinded by the facts. He "believes" the G4 is faster... you keep believing, man! It won't change the 'marks.

That Sony has a Radeon 9700, faster FSB, it's lighter, has a better display... and are you ready for this? A 2 MB L2 CACHE! Comparing the 12" PB to this machine is somewhat of a joke. In performance, the Sony will kick the PB in the nuts. In design, the PB makes the Sony look like an ugly toaster oven.

I love Apple, but Southbridge, I think you're right about the whole Apple "image" thing, and the hardware/PC software/Mac thing. Most of us have a bias though, and you've realized that.

Just decide what you will be happier with.

hey man. thanks. I'm glad there's someone out there who sees things a little more objectively. I was actually comparing the Vaio S360 with the 15" combo drive powerbook.

here are the specs on the vaio S360P:
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INT...ategoryName=cpu_VAIONotebookComputers_SSeries

here are the specs on the 15" powerbook:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APP...VBC3q1AI4dWgC/0.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.1.1.1.0.0.1.0

The S360P is clearly faster.

All the advantages that the Mac has are in the software. I'm not making light of software in general because it's just as important as the hardware... but at the same time hardware is important too.
 
Southbridge said:
[snip]

The S360P is clearly faster.
[snip]

at what ?

if you want someone to be "objective" give them an objective set of test criteria. You're looking at GHz numbers and drawing blanket conclusions. That's not "objective," unless you're just talking about the specific component whose speed the GHz measures.

Look, I am not saying and have never said that the PB is faster. Which laptop performs better depends on ... I know this is crazy ... what you do with it. As has been said, the 15" PB, especially, has its own set of serious hardware advantages over the Vaio, but whatever, if it's MHz you want, get the Sony.
 
mcgarry said:
at what ?

if you want someone to be "objective" give them an objective set of test criteria. You're looking at GHz numbers and drawing blanket conclusions. That's not "objective," unless you're just talking about the specific component whose speed the GHz measures.

Look, I am not saying and have never said that the PB is faster. Which laptop performs better depends on ... I know this is crazy ... what you do with it. As has been said, the 15" PB, especially, has its own set of serious hardware advantages over the Vaio, but whatever, if it's MHz you want, get the Sony.

I gave an example. At handling flash animation the vaio is clearly faster the the 15" PB, but you dont seem to believe me. I didnt try it but I'm sure for stuff that takes large frame rates, the Vaio might be better. I get a sense that Mac might be better at managing various programs that are open at the same time... I'm not even talking about MHz... 1.7 isnt that much faster than 1.5... or even the bus speed... 400Mhz vs. 166Mhz... ok... if hardware performance isnt important to you and I'm sure it's not important to like 90% of computer users then I'd recommend a Mac... In fact I actually helped a guy in CompUSA buy a iBook today. He saw that I was looking at the powerbook, and he asked me about it. He said he was looking to do some film stuff, and he wasnt that up to speed on computers in general. I said Macs would be perfect for him. I pointed him towards the iBook and as he walked out with one I assured him that he'd like it. My point is I'm trying to buy a computer without any hang ups and in a purely objective way, because fukkin-a its a lot of money, and I dont buy computers that often. I'm trying to give both PC's and Macs a totally fair shot and I really apreciate everybody's comments and stuff because it gives me a chance to see all sides.
 
Fair enough. I appreciate your trying to be objective (that's why we should leave this "image" stuff aside-- we could hardly get more subjective).

I never said hardware isn't important. I more or less said you seem to be privileging FSB & MHz, for example, over other aspects of hardware that the PB offers but not the Vaio: FW800, BT2, a larger screen, plus options for far more RAM, double the VRAM, a backlit keyboard, more HD, DVD-burning, and maybe others I'm forgetting at the moment (what speed is the VAIO HD-- Sony doesn't say). Now none of these might be important to you in your specifc case, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If FSB, for example, is important to you, maybe you should buy based on that, but don't pretend it's the only "objective" variable when it comes to hardware. And by the way, though I will not argue that the PB doesn't have a slower FSB-- I'm sure it does-- these double- and quad-pumped intel FSBs do not always have their performance translate directly when compared to the G4. 400 is not necessarily 2x 200 in a given application, for example. Again, too many variables to be making blunt, blanket statements.

As for your flash example, I replied that there were too many variables to consider, andthat it was far from test conditions. RAM, browser, other open apps, what the person in the store before you did with them, etc. could all have an effect. I also said it looked fine on my computer, only a rev. C 12" PB, no complaints here. Hardware performance is important to me: that's a big part of why I got a Mac, actually, but I don't expect everyone else to feel that way.

I will humbly suggest that you seem overly concerned with receiving "objective" advice, when in fact that applies little in the sorts of discussions we have had in this thread. So much depends on the individuals' use, their needs, their desires, their budget. You seem too ready to see a lack of objectivity in everyone else, when in fact you-- like me or any other consumer-- is operating from their own personal viewpoint, not some magical ground of objectivity on which you alone stand. Your views on macs and who uses them are based on the subjective perspective of someone who hasn't used them a lot. Spend some more time with the computers and I'd guess these generalizations and stereotypes will melt away. I could be wrong, but you have to agree you are not speaking from much experience when it comes to Macs, and that might undermine your attempt at objectivity in your own statements about them and their users. Anyway, I'm not trying to be harsh, I am trying to help, and throwing around "objective" without much care makes that harder to do.
 
dferrara said:
That Sony has a Radeon 9700, faster FSB, it's lighter, has a better display... In performance, the Sony will kick the PB in the nuts. In design, the PB makes the Sony look like an ugly toaster oven.


ok... so did you stand in compusa and run a hardware diagnostic test to prove to me that the sony has a better display... or are you just assuming that higher resolution equates to better display? See its things about people who make ignorant comments... if you're going to argue something... why don't you have a personal experience. Do you own this sony in question... probably not. But i'm willing to go out on a limb here to say that the other residents of your trailor park have some beer in the fridge that you can get on. Besides, does the hardware really matter if its blazingly fast or ridiculously slow if its operating a windows OS. Probably not. And had you read my post in its entirity, i wasn't just referring to my 12" PB, but Macs in general. Go get your best alienware PC and i guarantee you won't be thinkin the same when you put it up against that dual 2.5 PM.

But to get back on topic and to hope to salvage this thread from its inevitable home in the wasteland... My 12" has yet to get to small. If you think that it will be, fell free to lug the 15" all across campus, or even the sony for that matter. I know that the 12" is best for my situation, and everyone that has seen it says that if they buy another one, it'll be a 12"er

good luck on your quest to find a suitable computer
 
Since we're on the subject, mcgarry makes some very valid points, mainly that Macs utilize a completely different architecture from PCs. The G4 uses a very efficient data process, which keeps it in competition with PCs whose numbers get higher but don't see much performance increase.

It's also important to realize that, because of Apple's product lineup and how they release new machines, industry innovations take longer to be used in Macs.

Examples: PCI Express, DDR, Dual-Layer, logical/physical dual threads, SLI to name a few.

However, Mac users also enjoy a lot of industry firsts. They tend to be the more important advances that cause the rest of the industry to follow, such as: 64-bit processing, Bluetooth 2.0, dual processors, the touchpad, etc.

That being said, some users will find exception to a few things. I personally take great exception to the fact Apple still ships a 5200FX with a 2.5 GHz PowerMac.
 
h0e0h said:
if you're going to argue something... why don't you have a personal experience. Do you own this sony in question... probably not. But i'm willing to go out on a limb here to say that the other residents of your trailor park have some beer in the fridge that you can get on.

Those kinds of comments have no place in this thread or on this forum. I do not own the Sony, but it is a well known fact that the Pentium M vastly outperforms the G4 in many respects. Personal experiences and judgements mean nothing... they make poor arguements because they are subjective.

i wasn't just referring to my 12" PB, but Macs in general. Go get your best alienware PC and i guarantee you won't be thinkin the same when you put it up against that dual 2.5 PM.

You were referring to the G4 processor, which the Dual 2.5 PowerMac does not use... keep it up kid, you're on a roll here.
 
dferrara said:
You were referring to the G4 processor, which the Dual 2.5 PowerMac does not use... keep it up kid, you're on a roll here.

yes, at first i was referring to the g4 processor which is in the current powerbooks, but then when i mad a comment about alienware, i was referring to the g5s that are in the PMs. That comment was directed towards the hardware and software comparison... not towards powerbooks or processors specifically...
 
dferrara said:
Since we're on the subject, mcgarry makes some very valid points, mainly that Macs utilize a completely different architecture from PCs. The G4 uses a very efficient data process, which keeps it in competition with PCs whose numbers get higher but don't see much performance increase.

It's also important to realize that, because of Apple's product lineup and how they release new machines, industry innovations take longer to be used in Macs.
[snip]....

On the subject of laptops and Apple innovation, let's remember they were the first with 15" widescreen and 17" screens. Anybody could have done it, but nobody did, and now everybody does. They were also the first to integrate 802.11b into laptops, years before Centrino came to market. [If I am mistaken about this, it must have been someone really small, I swear I missed it, and I have looked] Neither of these are super-inventions on Apple's part-- they didn't invent 15" and 17" LCDs or 802.11x, but their putting them in a laptop first led to serious benefits for laptop users of every platform. I think they were also first to offer a built-in DVD-burner in a laptop (and a thin one at that). Even before this modern stuff, Apple has been huge with firsts in portables. See the recent buzz over the Mobile PC article naming the PB 100 the #1 gadget of all time, for example. So, dferrara, I'm not sure how much your generalizations applies to Apple in general, but I personally wouldn't apply it to their portables.

I also forget to mention earlier that the PB offers Gigabit ethernet and S-video-out, both also absent on the Sony. DVI, too, requires some sort of optional add-on. These might all be totally unimportant to any given user, and I'm not saying they somehow outweigh the magical FSB, but they nonetheless count as "hardware" advantages.
 
Jsmit said:
Can anyone find the speed of the Sony's hard-drive?

It's 4200rpm. So, since the PBs have 5400 rpm drives, that could tip a serious speed advantage against the Sony. How serious depends on what you do.
 
it's amazing how this forum quickly turns into a PC vs MAC debate. Especially when people like me are looking for information regarding if a 12" is too small.

Thanks to all the people who have kept on subject. I have decided that when the time comes around, I will be getting a 12" powerbook. The 15" might be too big for me to take around the campus comfortably.

Now a quick question. AFAIK, Tiger is going to have an interface that allows the OS to use the GPU for processing power. But, the 12" powerbook has lackluster video performance compared to the 9700.

Do you think that apple will upgrade the video in the 12" to take advantage of the enhanced performance? or will tiger simply make the gap even wider between the 12" and 15" for example?
 
hechacker1 said:
it's amazing how this forum quickly turns into a PC vs MAC debate. Especially when people like me are looking for information regarding if a 12" is too small.

Thanks to all the people who have kept on subject. I have decided that when the time comes around, I will be getting a 12" powerbook. The 15" might be too big for me to take around the campus comfortably.

Now a quick question. AFAIK, Tiger is going to have an interface that allows the OS to use the GPU for processing power. But, the 12" powerbook has lackluster video performance compared to the 9700.

Do you think that apple will upgrade the video in the 12" to take advantage of the enhanced performance? or will tiger simply make the gap even wider between the 12" and 15" for example?

I'd like to think I've been doing a good job staying on AND off topic, all 5 of them we've had in this thread! But anyway ...

The 12" PB GPU will officially support all the Tiger features. Will it perform them as well as the 15"? probably not, as expected. If support expands to include the current iBooks' 9200, the 12" PB should do better than those, on the other side of things. What exactly the differences will be is hard to say at this point, for obvious reasons, though their are GPU comparisons out there you can look up to get an idea. Personally I don't have a deep technical understanding of Tiger's requirements and how they play out with the various GPU characteristics.

I don't think there will be a PB update before Tiger, but who knows. Most here would agree, however, that the next PB updates of the 12" (or whatever the small one is then) will not use the Go5200.
 
shane-o-mac said:
Apple's focus is really on the user and for the vast majority of users how you interact with the product is more important then clock speed and a slew of preformance specs. Ask Apple users how many would go back to pc's. Apple's market share is growing at a rapid pace. The reason, users are tiring of all the additional head aches associated not only with XP but mass produced form factors that are a hodgepodge of uncompatable hardware. Owning a pc just takes more effort. A mac is designed to make the computing experience enjoyable and elegant. Afficandos will always argue for performance numbers while the rest of us just want to buy a machine that works well and is a pleasure to use. Apple has hit its stride and I hope it continues to get better.
Why doesnt apple just close the gap and own the world by using p4's and pm's in all its computers???????
 
CaptainCaveMann said:
Why doesnt apple just close the gap and own the world by using p4's and pm's in all its computers???????

Heh... Let's not go there, at least in this thread.

This thread started on as debate between a 12" and 15" PowerBooks based on screen-size. Considering that, I would say we have strayed completely from the original stated purpose of this thread, but this is Southbridge's thread and I respect his (or her) right to guided it in any direction to help him (or her) make a decision that he (or she) will be happy with. I wish that I knew the proper pronoun to use.

To review the Pros of each machine (at least for Southbridge) here are the lists of some Pros. I tried to keep subjective statements in line with Southbridge's expressed beliefs. I personally do not agree with them all.

Sony s360:
better screen
better keyboard
faster processor
better flash performance previously stated site
better GPU
lighter

12" PB combo:
better software
faster hard-drive
higher RAM limit
DVI out
smaller on every dimension
cheaper

I guess that is the objective/subjective list for your particular comparison. Feel free to modify as you see fit.
 
Jsmit said:
12" PB combo:
better software
faster hard-drive
higher RAM limit
DVI out
smaller on every dimension
cheaper

I guess that is the objective/subjective list for your particular comparison. Feel free to modify as you see fit.

Good summary. But for the 12", let's not forget BT2 and HD drop protection, while we're at it. On the Vaio side, it has a Memory Stick slot. Plus the option of a DVD-burner for the PB, and it would still stay cheaper (with edu prices vs. CompUSA quoted sale price, otherwise they're about the same price). I'm not saying these things are critical or even necessarily important to Southbridge or not, just in the interests of full objectivity, you know ...
 
dferrara said:
Since we're on the subject, mcgarry makes some very valid points, mainly that Macs utilize a completely different architecture from PCs. The G4 uses a very efficient data process, which keeps it in competition with PCs whose numbers get higher but don't see much performance increase.

It's also important to realize that, because of Apple's product lineup and how they release new machines, industry innovations take longer to be used in Macs.

Examples: PCI Express, DDR, Dual-Layer, logical/physical dual threads, SLI to name a few.

However, Mac users also enjoy a lot of industry firsts. They tend to be the more important advances that cause the rest of the industry to follow, such as: 64-bit processing, Bluetooth 2.0, dual processors, the touchpad, etc.

That being said, some users will find exception to a few things. I personally take great exception to the fact Apple still ships a 5200FX with a 2.5 GHz PowerMac.

Apple does not ship the 2.5 Ghz G5 with the gfx 5200 but the ATi 9600
 
How good in "real life work" is the Gfx Go 5200 and how much better is the ATi Mobility 9700 😕
Also what is the difference between a normal gfx 5200 and a "Go" 5200/ ATi "mobility" series is it just the names or 😕
 
Jsmit said:
Heh... Let's not go there, at least in this thread.

This thread started on as debate between a 12" and 15" PowerBooks based on screen-size. Considering that, I would say we have strayed completely from the original stated purpose of this thread, but this is Southbridge's thread and I respect his (or her) right to guided it in any direction to help him (or her) make a decision that he (or she) will be happy with. I wish that I knew the proper pronoun to use.

To review the Pros of each machine (at least for Southbridge) here are the lists of some Pros. I tried to keep subjective statements in line with Southbridge's expressed beliefs. I personally do not agree with them all.

Sony s360:
better screen
better keyboard
faster processor
better flash performance previously stated site
better GPU
lighter

12" PB combo:
better software
faster hard-drive
higher RAM limit
DVI out
smaller on every dimension
cheaper

I guess that is the objective/subjective list for your particular comparison. Feel free to modify as you see fit.

thanks... that helps. So here's what it comes down to for me: Right Machine/Not Quite Right Software vs. Right Software/Not Quite Right Machine (And mcgarry when I say 'right' and 'not quite right' I dont mean for everybody I mean subjectively for me)

and... um... I'm a dude... 😎
 
go up in compusa with the oldest and dirtiest set of clothes you have and ask for a "compruter" and see where they point you... that should be your final decision

good luck BTW... and let us know what you decide to go with
 
Platform said:
How good in "real life work" is the Gfx Go 5200 and how much better is the ATi Mobility 9700 😕
Also what is the difference between a normal gfx 5200 and a "Go" 5200/ ATi "mobility" series is it just the names or 😕

Yeah my bad, it does ship with the 9600XT... but the 2.0 GHz still ships with the 5200.

I don't know the exact differences, but the desktop version has a higher clock (5200 Ultra). It's the same with ATi; for example the 9700 Mobility has 4 pixel pipelines and the 9700 desktop version has 8 I believe. The 9700 Mobility translates to a 9600XT on a desktop card, for example.

So, dferrara, I'm not sure how much your generalizations applies to Apple in general, but I personally wouldn't apply it to their portables.

Uh... what? You're making the same point I was. 😕 See the rest of my post.
 
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