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Alright. I'm pretty furious this very second. Just about an hour ago I plunked down nearly 2 grand between a new macbook pro and an x25-m. Should I cancel my order ASAP? Realistically is it going to be a big deal?

If it's the same hardware, then that means it is possible for a software unlock? Help me. Someone tell me what to do. I don't want to have spent money for something worthless now.

FOR GOD SAKES MAN CANCEL AND RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!

This new machines are TOTALLY CRAP! This machine only copies large files onto your HDD 50 seconds in stead of the old 47 seconds. I MEAN WHAT IN THE HELL IS THIS????

Never mind the long battery life it has.

You know reading posts on here is better than watching comedies, I SWEAR! :D
 
Hybrid hard drives take me back to the Vista launch. We're finally getting around to some solutions but not on a single drive though. It feels very stillborn even today.

No, I'm talking about a hybrid inside the same form factor as a current 2.5" drive. Not using two drives. It would look to the OS and device driver as one drive. Just like the drive + cache today looks like looks like one drive. No OS changes required (just like no OS changes required for the current SSD drives plug and form factor compatible SSD drives. )


Currently, sometimes you read/write off the platters and much fewer times out of the small amount of memory on the disk. As memory gets cheaper/denser you can have a larger cache. The amount of memory can use is somewhat capped by the fact that memory GB costs much more than disk platter GB.

Flash is lower priced than RAM. So if the density goes up but the price doesn't as much you can perhaps use Flash memory to cache a bigger fraction of the platter GB space. Even more true if decide that don't need to push the increase in space on the platter as much (go with a more mature/cheaper platter tech.) and put a 1.5" platter in the package and use the extra space for Flash (cheaper energy wise to make 1.5" spin than it is to make 2.5" ones. )

Vista tried to do something that preselected what was to be pre-cached at boot or restart. And then tried to speed up a fixed situation.

This would be a more dynamic caching approach that would work with the normal disk read/write request flow. What you end up with is something that got better average speeds than what rotational drives get now but slower than the pure SSD approach. (i.e., still under 1.5 Gb/s ); at least for reads.

I'm not sure there has been a vendor that was good at both flash and platters to put something like together. Vista tried too soon. The synergies that Sun is pulling off with ZIL/ZFS caching mix between drives and flash are just now showing results with the latest version of flash memory densities and prices. There were no 1GB iPod shuffles when folks were doing that Vista stuff.


For a concrete example. The newer Hitachi Deskstar E7K1000 with 1 TB of memory only has a 32 MB cache. That is a two orders of magnitude difference between cache size and platter size. What if that was just one order? A 1 GB cache for a 1 TB disk. Or a 1 GB cache for a 300 GB disk.
Your cache hit rate is bound to go dramatically up (especially if can do some smarter prefetching from the disk). That is not what the Vista experiments were trying to do.

The rat race has been to give folks bigger and bigger disks. If you get to the point where the disks are "big enough" for most folks than can focus more attention at getting them that bounded amount of data to them faster.

I also think there are lots of motivators in the market that will keep flash disk prices higher than rotational ones for more than a few years into the future.

The bigger change for SSD drives will be when stop making them look "normal drives". A SSD drive that "plugged into" the PCI slot would likely could be made more space efficient so it looked more like a DIMM slot.
That's an OS/driver change though.
 
Hey guys, interesting thought, does anyone know someone with a Dell Studio XPS 13? That system uses the nVidia 9400m chipset, and it has firewire, USB 2.0, expresscard, and an 8-in-1 card reader. I wonder if it is also limited to SATA I. If it is, then we could be more sure that the card reader and firewire are the problem. If not, then that would basically prove there's no hardware component to this problem, since nothing else on the system has changed!

The XPS 13 is by no means limited to SATA-I, as it comes with a SATA-II SSD from Samsung by default (therefore it has to be compatible with it). However, I don't know its real-life R/W-speed, i.e. to what extent the PC can benefit from the speed of the SSD.
 
I just purchased a 3 Ghz MBP and a vertex SSD, and most certainly I will be affected. Let's not forget Apple offers SSD as CTO options, this is not some remote option that has no impact on anyone. This brings with it a serious performance hit in my stats software.

Apple can makes it's choices in line with consumer demand and costing but a little disclaimer stating this simple facts is completely reasonable if not required. "Those users possessing a SSD capable of speeds above 150 will experience performance loss". Without that it's really not fair. Now I have to go fight with them to return a CTO machine. Great......
 
Why is that unacceptable? The price of an MBP (or an MB* 13" even) is down hundreds of dollars. What is the problem? Did you honestly think there wouldn't be a catch? The fact that the user can't remove the battery himself anymore, is partly outweighed by the extended charge-time along with the multiplication of battery cycles (RAM is over-rated, btw). So what is there left to outweigh the FW, SD-card-reader and the $$$ price-fall? You do the math.

With Apple as with other corporations in computer industry, you get what you pay for.


Corporations do not make cost saving by "chopping out" parts, revenue is amortized over the life of the product to recover R&D costs. The MBP uses the same chip set/controller (Nvidia 9400) as the previous rev MB/MBPs, there has been no hardware substitution for cost savings. So, no... I don't think there would be a "catch" when Apple makes price reductions.

--
 
Again, these are no longer "Pro" machines!

Integrated graphics on the baseline 15"

Not all "Pros" need dedicated graphics. I'm a musician and DJ and I couldn't be happier that I can save $400 on a machine that is not catered to just graphic artists/designers/animators. In my opinion, the improved capability of the uMPB to expand equally as the 17" model is the core idea that makes it a pro machine.

No matte option

Again, this shouldn't be a deal breaker for other pros not in the graphics business.

No ExpressCard Slot

Firewire > ExpressCard Slot.

No a slower SATA interface

That is currently being contested, and since the new uMPB uses the same exact chipset as the 17" model, your argument is mute until further clarification of this issue. Though I just bought a 13" uMPB, so Apple better fix this on Monday.

We lost an extra FireWire Port

Daisy chaining. Look it up.

We lost the ability to carry/use an extra battery

Listen to the keynote at all? The vastly improved long run longevity of the new battery negates the need of ever replacing the battery during the average notebook's life.

And we still don't have Blu-Ray

I have nothing to say to this. The blu-ray argument is getting old.
 
so let's make sure apple put on sale the product we need, put the pressure on them, anybody who already bought the machines, send them back. good morning, take care & good luck!



NO THANKS

i bought my mbp knowing that this will be the last major purchase (notebooks anyway) of mine that will include a non-ssd.

99.9 percent of people should not care in the least about this. I would be pissed if my new Mac Pro had this happen, but otherwise what does it really matter? You people all expect desktop performance from your notebooks and its just not practical. It never will be. So cry if you must, complain, bitch and moan. Get a 17" or an air if you're serious about primarily using SSDs in 2009. All I know is apple lowered the cost of my computer and made it way better.

and thats the bottom line.
 
Moving from HD to SSD while retaining SATA 1.5 would give HUGE performance boost. Moving from SATA 1.5 to 3.0 even when using hi-end SSD would give only minor boost in performance.

But it is still a 'boost' in performance, and one that should distinguish the MBP from the MB. Why take it away?
 
The pro tag might be contested, but the pro whinner tag is not as is showcased by many a forum member lamenting how lack of blue ray has tied their hands while they can buy better content via iTunes, and how no express card slot is ohhhh so bad while only a documented 5% users used it, and the no matte blah blah while oh wait... The 17" has both matte and express!!!


To the apple loyalists. It was a good thing you bought early, our continued support have made apple what it is: the best hardware and software co, the most stylish, usable, and innovative - Better Than All The Rest Put Together. I am sure apple will not dissapoint if you become vocal about this issue with either AppleCare repairs or other means. In any case most of you wont see any difference and as another person said the bottleneck is mode so the ram not the he ssd
 
No, I'm talking about a hybrid inside the same form factor as a current 2.5" drive. Not using two drives. It would look to the OS and device driver as one drive. Just like the drive + cache today looks like looks like one drive. No OS changes required (just like no OS changes required for the current SSD drives plug and form factor compatible SSD drives. )


Currently, sometimes you read/write off the platters and much fewer times out of the small amount of memory on the disk. As memory gets cheaper/denser you can have a larger cache. The amount of memory can use is somewhat capped by the fact that memory GB costs much more than disk platter GB.

Flash is lower priced than RAM. So if the density goes up but the price doesn't as much you can perhaps use Flash memory to cache a bigger fraction of the platter GB space. Even more true if decide that don't need to push the increase in space on the platter as much (go with a more mature/cheaper platter tech.) and put a 1.5" platter in the package and use the extra space for Flash (cheaper energy wise to make 1.5" spin than it is to make 2.5" ones. )

Vista tried to do something that preselected what was to be pre-cached at boot or restart. And then tried to speed up a fixed situation.

This would be a more dynamic caching approach that would work with the normal disk read/write request flow. What you end up with is something that got better average speeds than what rotational drives get now but slower than the pure SSD approach. (i.e., still under 1.5 Gb/s ); at least for reads.

I'm not sure there has been a vendor that was good at both flash and platters to put something like together. Vista tried too soon. The synergies that Sun is pulling off with ZIL/ZFS caching mix between drives and flash are just now showing results with the latest version of flash memory densities and prices. There were no 1GB iPod shuffles when folks were doing that Vista stuff.


For a concrete example. The newer Hitachi Deskstar E7K1000 with 1 TB of memory only has a 32 MB cache. That is a two orders of magnitude difference between cache size and platter size. What if that was just one order? A 1 GB cache for a 1 TB disk. Or a 1 GB cache for a 300 GB disk.
Your cache hit rate is bound to go dramatically up (especially if can do some smarter prefetching from the disk). That is not what the Vista experiments were trying to do.

The rat race has been to give folks bigger and bigger disks. If you get to the point where the disks are "big enough" for most folks than can focus more attention at getting them that bounded amount of data to them faster.

I also think there are lots of motivators in the market that will keep flash disk prices higher than rotational ones for more than a few years into the future.

The bigger change for SSD drives will be when stop making them look "normal drives". A SSD drive that "plugged into" the PCI slot would likely could be made more space efficient so it looked more like a DIMM slot.
That's an OS/driver change though.
I understand that it should be all on the same drive form factor like we have today. Vista hyped it up and so did John C. Dvorak every time I heard time. Right now the best I've seen is netbooks with SSD boot and standard hard drive to storage.

Huge cache sizes compared to the paltry 32 MB we see today are the way to go. You're correct that everyone has been racing toward higher density platters and cache sizes have barely scaled up.

SSD drives in PCI-Express x4/16 slots are of interest right now but the prices are outrageous. So is the performance.
 
Corporations do not make cost saving by "chopping out" parts, revenue is amortized over the life of the product to recover R&D costs. The MBP uses the same chip set/controller (Nvidia 9400) as the previous rev MB/MBPs, there has been no hardware substitution for cost savings. So, no... I don't think there would be a "catch" when Apple makes price reductions.

--

The "catch" is that they're using cheaper CPUs with half the cache... Another thing the media didn't pick up on..
 
But it is still a 'boost' in performance, and one that should distinguish the MBP from the MB. Why take it away?

Because, no one is perfect, can you handle that?

Be happy that you are not in the 3/4 of the worlds population leaving in war famine and poverty and you are blessed to come here and, rightly on a way, complain about a few miliseconds of speed difference.
 
NO THANKS

i bought my mbp knowing that this will be the last major purchase (notebooks anyway) of mine that will include a non-ssd.

99.9 percent of people should not care in the least about this. I would be pissed if my new Mac Pro had this happen, but otherwise what does it really matter? You people all expect desktop performance from your notebooks and its just not practical. It never will be. So cry if you must, complain, bitch and moan. Get a 17" or an air if you're serious about primarily using SSDs in 2009. All I know is apple lowered the cost of my computer and made it way better.

and thats the bottom line.

ok, I thought it was obvious that I am saying "anybody who bought the machine and is unhappy: return the product". I could have added: "If you're happy with your purchase I see no reason for you to return it to the shop" ....ok now?
 
Apple is perfectly capable of using software deliberately to lockout hardware level functionality.

Take for example the previous generation of MacBooks and MacBook Pro's. Apple has locked many of these from accessing the full 8GB RAM limit of the hardware (to just 6GB).

Look at the iPhone and iPod Touch, which has had Bluetooth functionality built in since the beginning.

Wireless N functionality being a paid for software upgrade...

Another example would be that Apple is going to give all MBs/MBPs three- and four-finger gestures in SL. Another gimmick that already could have been activated for current users, but was retained to sell SL.
 
Based on the benchmarks linked, this is not true.

arn

Based on benchmark using the current driver that's true but as we all know drivers can change at any time and then all of this becomes a moot point. It could also be a simple parameter change in a settings file and current driver could switch the speed to 3gb/s.

Until Apple makes a statement about this the hate talk about Apple is based on nothing but wild speculation. I for one will just wait and see what happens.
 
Because, no one is perfect, can you handle that?

Be happy that you are not in the 3/4 of the worlds population leaving in war famine and poverty and you are blessed to come here and, rightly on a way, complain about a few miliseconds of speed difference.

Your argument is irrelevant to marketing. Taking away a technology without disclosure is misleading, and consumers have a right to know what they are receiving for the amount of money they spend. Besides, if this is important to me, and I don't like it, then I can contribute more money to foundations which enable the poor to better their lives ;) - which I have done. Do you?
 
Another example would be that Apple is going to give all MBs/MBPs three- and four-finger gestures in SL. Another gimmick that already could have been activated for current users, but was retained to sell SL.

For the loveof god get SMS ms dell crapware but stop whinning. Do you want apple to pre release all snow leopard features to you for free. You are still getting it eventually sl for peanuts so why whine? I ve said it before. , some people here are soooooo spoiled.

So just get a dell man, I don't think you desrve an apple.
 
Ok, so here is what confuses me the most. Who are these idiots who are giving this article a positive instead of a negative? 33 positives so far. WTF?

Are these people who just like to pay for premium prices for backwards technology? I swear, the uneducated really do cause problems in our society.
 
Your argument is irrelevant to marketing. Taking away a technology without disclosure is misleading, and consumers have a right to know what they are receiving for the amount of money they spend. Besides, if this is important to me, and I don't like it, then I can contribute more money to foundations which enable the poor to better their lives ;) - which I have done. Do you?

Yeah by virtue of 1ms per ever 10 mind delay per virtue of removing the sata 3 apple will cost you about 20 minutes less from
a years productivity. Provided you have the ssd of course.

Wow they ripped you off!!!

Just buy a crapware ms hp or something and lose an hour a day from doing every day things in the most impractical convoluted way.
 
Just chatted with two different people on the Apple store site and neither of them had the specs for the SATA controller on the SD-reader MacBook Pros.
 
Reading posts from Apple apologists on here is giving me a headache, its like Apple can do no wrong whatsoever...mind boggling really

Hopefully Apple addresses this issue with a firmware update but its probably not gonna happen till the next revision. Anyhoo i'm off.
 
Can people that do not own a new MBP and have a problem with the people who do have a new MBP and are upset about SATA I please stop complaining? It's pretty ridiculous...

When you read the name of the thread, you know what you're getting into, so stop calling people "whiners" and "spoiled". They have a right to be upset about it, and clearly arn believes this is a major problem if he posted it on the site's home page.

Just respect the fact that people have the right to be upset. It's the only way Apple will be persuaded to fix the problem, and your comments are not helping.
 
Do you really think that would be good for business? It would just make it harder for Apple to deliver a better machine at the next WWDC. When people buy the Apple computers despite set-backs like this one, the computers are obviously worth the price anyway.

How can you be so sure when there is no other alternative but to abandon the Mac platform entirely (and all your software with it) because there are no other hardware vendors for the platform? Do you seriously believe something like iMacs are TRULY popular or could it be that it's simply the ONLY "desktop" in the $1000-2000 range that Apple offers? So how can you tell the difference? They sure as heck aren't popular in the PC world despite being available there.

I think Apple can afford to live in a fantasy world because they have no competition for hardware until you're ready to abandon your Mac software library entirely, which is a pretty big step over small hardware malfunctions. But if they had competition, those differences wouldn't be so small. They would cost Apple sales and they would either have to LEARN from their mistakes and be competitive or suffer the consequences. That's how Capitalism is SUPPOSED to work, but Apple has managed to skirt it up until now. I hope someday that will change so the customer can have real hardware choices other than to switch platforms to get them. To me, it's well worth building a Hackintosh the next time around when I can almost get $2500 worth of performance in most areas for $900 (i.e. A quad-core with a better GPU). That's one heck of an Apple tax to pay, IMO. I'm done paying it. Microsoft is right on this one in their commercials and believe me, I don't like Microsoft and I sure as heck don't like Windows, but that doesn't make Apple the good guy. They're both bad, IMO. Sometimes, it comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils, except it's getting harder to pick these days, IMO. If Apple would offer a mid-range tower desktop in the $1000-1500 range with a quad-core, I might reconsider. But I'm not paying $2500 for a Mac Pro and I'm not buying an iMac so that leaves Hackintosh for my next "Mac".

In any case, other than the possible threat of the 8600M's "defect" surfacing some day, I think I got the right MBP for the money at the time. It has a separate FW400 port (in addition to the 800 port), a real expansion port, a matte screen, an easily changeable battery, dirt cheap ram expansion to 4GB and it is only slightly slower than the newer MBPs AND I got it for $1444 after rebate (a reasonable price for its features where it was a bit overpriced at $2000, IMO). I see little of better value in the new MBPs other than the upgraded chassis and slightly better CPU and GPU.

yes because the 0.001% of folks that would actually be effected by this change is THE key to Apple's success. they should always do what will benefit those folks.

perhaps Steve should just hand you the throne cause you are so much smarter than he ever was. would that make you happy

Unless you do constant large file copies all day long, this has pretty much zero bearing on actual system performance. Most I/O operations are small, and typically more or less random. SATA link speed doesn't matter in those (majority of) cases.

It's a bit of a perplexing move, but really not worth tearing out your hair over.

Rationalizing downgrading parts doesn't change the fact there was no need to lower a "Pro" computer's performance to save a few pennies in my book. What bothers some of us is that the previous computer had a BETTER Sata card. Sure, most won't notice it and most probably never use the expansion port they removed, but for a few professionals, this sort of thing is just more signs Apple is moving away from "Pro" computers and aiming for the least common denominator. Most of my PCs have features I never used. That doesn't mean I wasn't glad they were there in case I did need them at some point. Even my old Amiga 3000 had things like an External SCSI port that I used maybe once, if at all and lots of Zorro III card slots that never got used. But you can never tell when you'll need something and if it's not there, there's often little you can do to improve things other than buy a new computer. Personally, I find the removal of the expansion port far worse than degrading the Sata controller, but neither are a "good" move, IMO.
 
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