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SSDs will likely replace majority of mechanic hard drive in the next 2-3 years. I upgrade my hard drives almost yearly to the largest and quickest drives. Right now, my 2.5 year old White Macbook has been upgraded twice, and using a 320GB hard drive.

I am expecting to see 256GB-320GB SSD drives selling for under $300 by next summer. At that price point, I would be very likely to make the jump. Problem is, if I have a laptop, like this Macbook Pro, that is saddled with SATA 1.5Gbps.

Also, SATA 6.0Gbps final spec was ratified by the industry last summer, and is already in a handful of consumer motherboards. The fact that Apple stepped backwards to the original archaic SATA 1.5Gbps spec is quite outrageous to most people, who plan on using their new computers for several years and possibly upgrading their hard drives along the way.
 
For the loveof god get SMS ms dell crapware but stop whinning. Do you want apple to pre release all snow leopard features to you for free. You are still getting it eventually sl for peanuts so why whine? I ve said it before. , some people here are soooooo spoiled.

So just get a dell man, I don't think you desrve an apple.

Chill out. I never said anything about "deserving" anything. I only listed the finger gesture technology as an example of Apple withholding a function based on firmware. I never said they should not have done so, only that they did not NEED to do so. Actually, I am quite content without the multi-finger gestures.

However, paying for a new machine with lesser features than a previous machine is something that should be discussed, especially when it is marketed as better than the preceding version. While this is Apple's choice, these kinds of changes need to be disclosed. If you disagree, then you need a course in business ethics. There IS reason to be upset for some people (e.g., those upgrading with high-end SSDs), but I am not one of them. I simply agree with them.
 
Another example would be that Apple is going to give all MBs/MBPs three- and four-finger gestures in SL. Another gimmick that already could have been activated for current users, but was retained to sell SL.

I do not know where you are writing from, but I am guessing many on this forum are in the USA, and many of the complainers are in the USA.

Which facet of capitalism do you have difficulty understanding?

You are not living in a planned economy. you are participants in a free market economy, in which a corporation will do whatever they can to make profits. New inventions/features, new products, new hype, profit...

you know: they are allowed to package and sell anything they like in any way they like. the word 'fair' plays no part. who told you that computer companies ought to be fair?

IMO apple make good products, simultaneously it is naturally part of their business to lie & try to trick/seduce you into buying very expensive products. so let the buyer beware.

if their business practice disgusts you so much: buy something else that makes you happier!
 
I just got the phone call from the Tech Support here in Japan.

I've CTO my macbook pro 15" with

3.06ghz, 500gb 7200rpm.

I asked if the one I ordered was only 1.5gbps and would be changeable to 3.0gbps if I'll buy SSD in the future on my own.

and another question was if I order 256gb SSD with an apple, it would be 3.0gbps.


The answers were as followed:

1. Right now it is being shipped as 1.5gbps, and we are not sure whether it would be software/firmware upgradable to 3.0gbps in the future as this is not confirmed as of yet.

2. If you order 128gb or 256gb SSD as a CTO, you will be sure to get the 3.0gbps speed.


So I just changed my order from 500gb 7200rpm to 256gb SSD.

I also asked whether it is only Toshiba for the SSD, but the answer was "since we deal with a lot of different companies, we cannot confirm the brand of the SSD"


I hope this is helpful and be posted up somewhere as an info.

Another poster also reported something like this yesterday.

Get ready for the **** storm.
 
I do not know where you are writing from, but I am guessing many on this forum are in the USA, and many of the complainers are in the USA.

Which facet of capitalism do you have difficulty understanding?

You are not living in a planned economy. you are participants in a free market economy, in which a corporation will do whatever they can to make profits. New inventions/features, new products, new hype, profit...

you know: they are allowed to package and sell anything they like in any way they like. the word 'fair' plays no part. who told you that computer companies ought to be fair?

IMO apple make good products, simultaneously it is naturally part of their business to lie & try to trick/seduce you into buying very expensive products. so let the buyer beware.

if their business practice disgusts you so much: buy something else that makes you happier!


Again, see my post just before yours. I am not "disgusted," I just prefer full disclosure. This is in line with my view of what a "free market economy" in a "republic" is supposed to be. I do like Apple products, but I despise deception, as should anyone, unless you like being lied to. Trying to "trick/seduce" the buyer is not necessary. That is why there are so many laws now.

Another poster also reported something like this yesterday.

Get ready for the **** storm.

Interesting. Well, if this is just a firmware fix, then perhaps someone will hack it and post instructions. Sounds like Apple is trying to force people to avoid DIY upgrades.
 
Again, see my post just before yours. I am not "disgusted," I just prefer full disclosure. This is in line with my view of what a "free market economy" in a "republic" is supposed to be. I do like Apple products, but I despise deception, as should anyone, unless you like being lied to. Trying to "trick/seduce" the buyer is not necessary. That is why there are so many laws now.
I have to agree with you. It's getting very annoying for the more knowledgeable user base to get constantly beaten by Apple's decisions.

I remember chatter of Windows users jumping ship to Apple when Vista launched. I can imagine Apple killing off some of its user base back to Windows 7 with this nonsense.
 
Again, see my post just before yours. I am not "disgusted," I just prefer full disclosure. This is in line with my view of what a "free market economy" in a "republic" is supposed to be. I do like Apple products, but I despise deception, as should anyone, unless you like being lied to. Trying to "trick/seduce" the buyer is not necessary. That is why there are so many laws now.

ok, sorry, I must have misread your message as disgust.

I do not believe that anything is "supposed to be" in these times and economies. everybody gets what they deserve. republic or not.

I obviously don't *like* being lied to, but i do expect that a corporation will attempt to lie to me, and will always try to get away with non-disclosure. the only thing these corporations understand is lower sales as a result of bad product. it is my responsibility to myself, my family etc to catch them lying and not give them any money till they rectify the situation. relying on "the many laws" or on believing that apple are somehow a nice company is naive, in my opinion
 
Drives?

Sorry if someone already posted this, but...

Maybe, just maybe...its the drives themselves that only support 1.5Gbps given that the benefit of 3.0Gbps might be marginal on a platter based drive for the average consumer?

Save $$ on the drive for marginal performance hit means they can sell them for cheaper. Option up to a SSD for appropriate cost and get the full 3.0Gbps (as the above post indicates)..

Sounds like logical cost/benefit rational to me.

AB
 
I knew there was a black cloud somewhere. Seems rather common nowadays.

So I am left with:
A: 2.4 unibody MB with no firewire, but a faster interface,

or

B: 2.4G 13" MBP with firewire, but a slow interface.


A guy can't ever catch a break
 
Can anyone verify that the 15" model with GeForce 9400M + 9600M GT has this downgraded bus?

Did anyone ever think that this is the downside to Apple "going green"?

When I buy a Mac, I'm not buying it for power, I'm buying it for design and the ability to run Mac OS X legally. Sure I could pay half as much and get a PC based laptop with all the bells and whistles but why would I? On the Apple side I get longer battery life, reliability, illuminated keys, unibody aluminum casing, crisper screen, and better overall support.

If your a developer, your either using a Mac Pro or a 17" MacBook Pro. If your not, then your in the demographic of user that is working their way up and will eventually have the ability to afford that for your needs. If your really concerned about the 25% extra power you feel your missing out on, then go switch to PC. If your a graphic artist or designer you already know how that's professional suicide. If your in education your school in need of funds will probably be happy your saving them money by buying a PC.

I'm a consultant and I know the 13" MacBook is even overkill for my needs. I figure while it's a write-off for my business, I might as well go for the 15". The only thing stopping me from going to dedicated video is if I feel the cost difference is justified. My other mac is a iMac 24" 2.8GHZ 4GB Ram with dedicated video. I doubt my laptop needs to have it also.

I'm more then willing to take 8 hours in battery life in exchange for slower transfer rates when I'm moving data from my laptop to an external fire drive or waiting a little longer during software installs.
 
Pardon me if I missed it, but I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that SATA II is more than just the headroom bump from 1.5 to 3 GBps. It also adds things like NCQ which can dramatically aid performance regardless of max transfer rate.

If 1.5 GBps is being reported because Apple cheaped out by putting SATA I hard drives into these laptops then there is legitimate reason for serious concern. I doubt this is the case, but it is one possibility to explain this strange configuration. Another is that they somehow limited only the transfer rate but not other facets of the SATA II spec. The latter should be easily fixed with some kind of efi update I would imagine.
 
How can you be so sure when there is no other alternative but to abandon the Mac platform entirely (and all your software with it) because there are no other hardware vendors for the platform? Do you seriously believe something like iMacs are TRULY popular or could it be that it's simply the ONLY "desktop" in the $1000-2000 range that Apple offers? So how can you tell the difference? They sure as heck aren't popular in the PC world despite being available there.

I think Apple can afford to live in a fantasy world because they have no competition for hardware until you're ready to abandon your Mac software library entirely, which is a pretty big step over small hardware malfunctions. But if they had competition, those differences wouldn't be so small. They would cost Apple sales and they would either have to LEARN from their mistakes and be competitive or suffer the consequences. That's how Capitalism is SUPPOSED to work, but Apple has managed to skirt it up until now. I hope someday that will change so the customer can have real hardware choices other than to switch platforms to get them. To me, it's well worth building a Hackintosh the next time around when I can almost get $2500 worth of performance in most areas for $900 (i.e. A quad-core with a better GPU). That's one heck of an Apple tax to pay, IMO. I'm done paying it. Microsoft is right on this one in their commercials and believe me, I don't like Microsoft and I sure as heck don't like Windows, but that doesn't make Apple the good guy. They're both bad, IMO. Sometimes, it comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils, except it's getting harder to pick these days, IMO. If Apple would offer a mid-range tower desktop in the $1000-1500 range with a quad-core, I might reconsider. But I'm not paying $2500 for a Mac Pro and I'm not buying an iMac so that leaves Hackintosh for my next "Mac".

In any case, other than the possible threat of the 8600M's "defect" surfacing some day, I think I got the right MBP for the money at the time. It has a separate FW400 port (in addition to the 800 port), a real expansion port, a matte screen, an easily changeable battery, dirt cheap ram expansion to 4GB and it is only slightly slower than the newer MBPs AND I got it for $1444 after rebate (a reasonable price for its features where it was a bit overpriced at $2000, IMO). I see little of better value in the new MBPs other than the upgraded chassis and slightly better CPU and GPU.

Everything you can do on a mac, can also be done on a PC. And yes, I believe that iMacs are truly popular. Certain people are so attached to the mac platform that they will buy any piece of hardware that can run OSX on it. How I can tell the difference? I can't. In my opinion, these are two sides of the same coin. But I still have to consider the buyers of the iMacs as rational consumers. If the iMac is what works the best for them (total package, you can't compare apples with oranges, etc) why shouldn't they pay the price if it's worth it?

The reason I bought a MB in the first place, is that it was the cheapest one according to the specs that I needed for a notebook (including battery lifetime and portability), but I'll be damned if I get too attached to the platform. The hackintosh project seems interesting, so I will try to install OSX on my home-built desktop someday when I have time (I currently run Linux on it).
 
Sorry if someone already posted this, but...

Maybe, just maybe...its the drives themselves that only support 1.5Gbps given that the benefit of 3.0Gbps might be marginal on a platter based drive for the average consumer?

Save $$ on the drive for marginal performance hit means they can sell them for cheaper. Option up to a SSD for appropriate cost and get the full 3.0Gbps (as the above post indicates)..

Sounds like logical cost/benefit rational to me.

AB

Pardon me if I missed it, but I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that SATA II is more than just the headroom bump from 1.5 to 3 GBps. It also adds things like NCQ which can dramatically aid performance regardless of max transfer rate.

If 1.5 GBps is being reported because Apple cheaped out by putting SATA I hard drives into these laptops then there is legitimate reason for serious concern. I doubt this is the case, but it is one possibility to explain this strange configuration. Another is that they somehow limited only the transfer rate but not other facets of the SATA II spec. The latter should be easily fixed with some kind of efi update I would imagine.
It shouldn't be that hard to search for SATA II 3.0 Gbps support using the hard drive model numbers.
 
This has been unbelievably blown out of proportion.

No one with a hard disk will see ANY difference - the current SATA II drives don't come close to reaching the SATA I limit.

For those with an SSD, there may be a slight theoretical difference, but not in reality. The variance in SSD throughput between manufacturers is vast right now.

Apple dropped the price of all of its laptops -- some significantly. I would take that "real-world" drop over a theoretical difference for SSD (not hard disks) any day of the week.
 
Well, let's see: the 17" MacBook Pro has:

  • SATA II (fast enough for SSDs)
  • ExpressCard (no retarded SD slot)
  • High-resolution 1920 x 1200 screen (gorgeous)
  • Up to 3.06 GHz CPU option (fast)

It looks like they really want you to buy the 17", at the risk of pissing off lots of people. I would buy the 17" just for the screen alone, but seriously, I knew there had to be reasons for the new notebooks being cheaper, and that those reasons couldn't possibly be good. :(
 
And yes, I believe that iMacs are truly popular. Certain people are so attached to the mac platform that they will buy any piece of hardware that can run OSX on it.

Doesn't the second preclude being able to judge the first?

How I can tell the difference? I can't. In my opinion, these are two sides of the same coin.

Apple could try offering a tower alternative to the iMac at a similar price range for a year or so and see which sells better. That would both answer the question and solve the dilemma a few of us have where we feel we are being forced to build or buy a Hackintosh because Apple offers us nothing suitable in a reasonable price range. And no $2500+ is not reasonable, IMO for a consumer level machine these days when a $900 Quad-Core with a better GPU will run circles around it for many applications and most games. OS X is worth more to me than Windows right now, but not THAT much more.
 
I was planing to buy the 13In and get an SSD for it, Knowing full well that the difference between 1.5 and 3 isn't going to be that great in my world, I totally understand why people are mad. But I will still be buying the 13in and get an SSD off newegg.

I would just like to point out that I feel this is a Firmware issue, and you must remember all this thread has happened on a weekend, so no hope at any answer until tomorrow.

And for those who don't understand I'll place this in simple terms for you.

Difference between 1.5 And 3

If you have a regular HDD this really isn't going to affect you, just SSD

If you went out and bought a KIA (HDD) and the Air filter was the wrong size (SATA1) the engine would be under powered just a bit at high RPM's, chances are you will never have a KIA (HDD) at high RPM as it is a city car. But what if you bought a C7 corvette (SSD), in the city you also would never notice the wrong sized air filter (SATA1), but take that car to the track for the weekend and lose the race to another C7 form the year before with a little less (slower CPU) horsepower and your going to be pissed. Just because the wrong filter (SATA1) was used in building your C7 that should have had 15 more horsepower then the C7 form last year (ie CPU
upgrade).:cool:

Nothing agains KIA's or Vetts, intended
 
Tomkison and Grimace have more than covered me, and in a very eloquent and funny way. Good job guys. I will just wait to see how this minor issue pans out since it's a preliminary stage right now.
 
Even your 7200rpm drive won't ever get near the 3.0Gb/s limit. As said, only the really fast SSD's will.
I don't have data on 7200rpm drives, but I doubt even those will go way over 50MB/s.

You're safe.
I'm not worried about getting near 3.0Gb/s, I'm wondering if I have potential to exceed 1.5Gb/s. Even if I got 2.0Gb/s, that would be great.

Just build my machine up from my backups but haven't tried running about 2-3 VM's like I normally do for school. I guess I'll find out soon. :)
 
That says more about the current SSDs (even the hi-end ones) than the SATA-II standard per se.

That's the point. Even if you got a hi-end SSD, the speed of the interface is hardly an issue.

No, you wouldn't see any difference until you go SSD.

And even with SSD's, the difference between SATA 1.5 and 3.0 is next to neglible

I already made the switch to an SSD in a new 13" MBP, yes it does give a huge performance boost. BUT - I went and bought an Intel X25 one of the more expensive SSDs around. If I'm now limited by the computer hardware perhaps I wouldn't have gotten that particular drive.

Why not? The speed of the interface makes hardly any difference. You bought yourself a fine SSD, and it will shine on your Mac, regardless of whether it's on SATA 1.5 or 3.0. If you had SATA 3.0, you wouldn't get that much more performance from the unit. Sure, you might be able to see SOME difference in benchmarks, but in actual use, the difference would be minor at worst.

It's like when people stare how many 3DMarks they get from their vid-cards and CPU's, as opposed to looking how fast their vid-cards and CPU's run their apps.... Benchmarks are all nice and dandy, but they are not the apps people are supposed to actually USE.
 
I'm not 100% sure how this would all work so correct me if I'm wrong, but would doing this make the OS any smaller (as in OS footprint)?

And if it does actually slow down the computer at all (and most people on the forum have convinced me that it wont slow down the computer) then the 10.6.1 update will make the computer go faster (if it isn't hardware based) so (windows)people will think all Apple updates are speed improvements then people will switch over to Apple!!!

That or maybe I am just insane because it is 3 in the morning where I am.
 
Not all "Pros" need dedicated graphics. I'm a musician and DJ and I couldn't be happier that I can save $400 on a machine that is not catered to just graphic artists/designers/animators. In my opinion, the improved capability of the uMPB to expand equally as the 17" model is the core idea that makes it a pro machine.

One, integrated graphics doesn't have to mean crappy graphics. Intel's integrated stuff has classically been relatively bad (to those who have discrete offerings.). The successor to the 9400M (if there is one from NVidia ) will have better performance still.

But just as you don't need the discrete graphics, others may not need the ExpressCard port. There are an even larger group of folks who are not graphic artists/designers/animators/dj/musicians than are.





Again, this [matte] shouldn't be a deal breaker for other pros not in the graphics business.

It also isn't like can't put a matte filter on the glass plate to mute much of the specular reflections. Instead of being built into the glass of the panel can place it on the glass.

Depending upon where you work and the lighting the mirror like screens are bad for anyone's eyes. Don't have to be doing color sensitive work (which is ironic somewhat because matte mutes colors too. ). Matte gets rid of specular highlights and homogenizes viewing angles. It doesn't improve color accuracy.



Firewire > ExpressCard Slot.

more devices commonly owned than ExpressCard?
Or (looking down and seeing bought a 13" vs. the old 13" alternative) a much bigger enabler to put it back than not propagate it into a smaller form factor.

The reoccuring problem has been that folks read that differently. They read it as number of possible devices as opposed to number of probable devices.



That is currently being contested, and since the new uMPB uses the same exact chipset as the 17" model, your argument is mute until further clarification of this issue. Though I just bought a 13" uMPB, so Apple better fix this on Monday.

Folks keep trying to classify this as a design flaw. Much more likely that Apple did this deliberately for reasons similar to the ( "Use it or loose it" ) ExpressCard being dropped.

If have the drives they sell, won't see a difference so where is the flaw?
Got real life workflow benchmarks where sustaining > 90 Gb/s to a drive?

Daisy chaining. Look it up.

Doesn't work for some on the audio business. Folks who bought hardware that sucks down 80-90% of the FW bus power for instance. Other folks who have bandwidth issues too many FW400 devices.

Listen to the keynote at all? The vastly improved long run longevity of the new battery negates the need of ever replacing the battery during the average notebook's life.

I think folks are either doing 3 things.

i. using old models of batteries usage. ( gotta replace them)

ii. not buying into Apple's stats on battery life. ( the hours one seems to be holding up well though.)

iii. That is a average where someone only recharges every 1.8-2.0 days.
Perhaps some plan to discharge completely every day. ;-)


The blu-ray argument is getting old.

Blu-ray has a bunch of political baggage on it.
The anti-DRM folks are definitely haters.
The HD-DVD folks are often also haters.
The cult-of-Steve folks are also haters because Steve proclaimed hate on Blu-Ray.

However Blu-ray isn't as old as the multi-button mouse folks. :)
 
I was planing to buy the 13In and get an SSD for it, Knowing full well that the difference between 1.5 and 3 isn't going to be that great in my world, I totally understand why people are mad. But I will still be buying the 13in and get an SSD off newegg.

I would just like to point out that I feel this is a Firmware issue, and you must remember all this thread has happened on a weekend, so no hope at any answer until tomorrow.

And for those who don't understand I'll place this in simple terms for you.

Difference between 1.5 And 3

If you have a regular HDD this really isn't going to affect you, just SSD

If you went out and bought a KIA (HDD) and the Air filter was the wrong size (SATA1) the engine would be under powered just a bit at high RPM's, chances are you will never have a KIA (HDD) at high RPM as it is a city car. But what if you bought a C7 corvette (SSD), in the city you also would never notice the wrong sized air filter (SATA1), but take that car to the track for the weekend and lose the race to another C7 form the year before with a little less (slower CPU) horsepower and your going to be pissed. Just because the wrong filter (SATA1) was used in building your C7 that should have had 15 more horsepower then the C7 form last year (ie CPU
upgrade).:cool:

Nothing agains KIA's or Vetts, intended

Great post by the way. And I'm sure more than 90% of people who buy these computers wont be getting corvette's (SSD's)
 
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