13-Inch Retina MacBook Pro Coming in October?

[crsh1976]

The 13" MBP never had a discrete GPU. It had an nVidia integrated GPU (integrated to the north bridge and sharing system memory).

Err, the Geforce 320M from 2 generations ago was effectively a discreet GPU; the fact that it used shared system RAM rather than dedicated GDDR3-4-5 memory doesn't change that.

It's a separate processor, not one integrated in the north bridge or part of the CPU die; that's what qualifies it as a discreet GPU, not the type of memory it uses.

 

[mkoesel]

The 13" MBP never had a discrete GPU. It had an nVidia integrated GPU (integrated to the north bridge and sharing system memory).

Ah, yes indeed. My mistake.

In any case, going forward, I do expect the 13" Pro to gain discrete graphics. As one poster mentioned above, the removal of the optical drive (even while acknowledging the new, smaller form factor and larger capacity battery) could very well make this feasible.

 

[jeremyshaw]

Err, the Geforce 320M from 2 generations ago was effectively a discreet GPU; the fact that it used shared system RAM rather than dedicated GDDR3-4-5 memory doesn't change that.

It's a separate processor, not one integrated in the north bridge or part of the CPU die; that's what qualifies it as a discreet GPU, not the type of memory it uses.

It WAS the NB, lol (as with all later nVidia chipset designs, where the NB/IGP and SB came together onto the same package/die). It's an IGP, with typical IGP bandwidth limitations.

 

[KnightWRX]

Err, the Geforce 320M from 2 generations ago was effectively a discreet GPU; the fact that it used shared system RAM rather than dedicated GDDR3-4-5 memory doesn't change that.

It's a separate processor, not one integrated in the north bridge or part of the CPU die; that's what qualifies it as a discreet GPU, not the type of memory it uses.

I meant south bridge sorry. The 320M was an integrated part, containing a GPU, memory controller, PCI bridge, etc...

EDIT: nvm, it was both north bridge/south bridge. You're just wrong.

 

[deconstruct60]

I don't buy that edge sockets and DVD are a major factor.

Perhaps shouldn't have limited to the edge and DVD. The HDD , RAM , and CPU play a role but those can be negated.

People have external backup drives connected almost 24/7 or at least daily. Having an internal TM volume would be much more valuable than an internal ODD,

An internal TM volume in a mobile device is a dubious idea. The major reason why folks shift to SSD in mobile products is to avoid the disconnect between walking around and spinning hard drives. A HDD that is being bounced around as being your primary source of back-up is a bit off. It is nice just as long as don't think about just how vulernable your back-up drive is located there.

Frankly, I don't think most folks back up much even with stationary drives. Time Machine makes it easy by many don't. There is an even smaller number of folks backing up to either two time machine stores or back-stopping with incremental clones in addition to time machine. I seriously doubt that is mainstream. Nor an idea Apple would encourage to go mainstream.

No, the main reason why the 13" MBP might outsell the Air is disk space (particularly disk space per dollar)

I suppose that will last this year. Apple bought a flash controller IP company. I suspect they are soon going to deploy flash with "good enough" capacity and just leave those with high bulk and strong $/GB demands to small external drive powered off the Thunderbolt port. Just like how the Ethernet can be pushed into a dongle, 2.5" HDD can just as easily be pushed into a dongle once Apple turns that into "the few who need it".

and to a lesser extent more RAM and faster CPU (and until now also faster

RAM is much of an issue if comes with 8 or 16GB by default. If Apple cut the "extra" Apple tax slightly for the 16GB variant all the more true.

I/O with the Air defacto limited to 100 MbitE and USB 2 because of lack of affordable TB stuff).

Errr? The Air now has USB 3.0. and the 1GbE will be (or is ) $29.99. For the latter, just how much affordable you want it to be? [ the 1GbE dongle isn't a BTO option for the MBA now but I suspect that is a hiccup that Mountain Lion will cure. It is just a matter of drivers and configuration testing. The dongle's driver update was screwed up some folks on Lion. ]

I don't think Apple is going to measure against what the MBA 13" and MBP 13" sales were before. I'm talking now that the prices and some of the feature sets have been evened out it is going to be much more clear which one has more inate appeal over the medium term.

The MBP 13" an MBA 13' were tiered slightly above each other before. Apple could go back to that with the MBP 13" staying at the lower spot and the new MBP 13" taking the higher price tier structure. The MBA 13" could just peter out after about a year's run until the next update cycle if it is the weakest out of the three.

 

[crsh1976]

My bad, you guys are right; I had the GT 320M in mind, not the non-GT/integrated 320M used in the 13-inch MBP of yore.

Carry on.

 

[jeremyshaw]

Ah, yes indeed. My mistake.

In any case, going forward, I do expect the 13" Pro to gain discrete graphics. As one poster mentioned above, the removal of the optical drive (even while acknowledging the new, smaller form factor and larger capacity battery) could very well make this feasible.

Eh, Sony already does it in the Vaio SA (full speed dual core + HD6630m) and the new Vaio S13A (full speed dual core + gt640m le) lineup. It even includes the optical drive, doesn't use proprietary SSDs, and gives a 1600x900 13" panel, to boot. So how the MBP13 didn't have that this time around, is rather disappointing to me. I even tried to get my old SA to overheat (to see if it could)... it just refused to even throttle, much less overheat. So no excuses. Ultrabook makers are punching in 620m and 630m chips into ultrabooks, for crying out loud.

 

[gnasher729]

Thanks for the breakdown. I notice you didn't address quad versus dual cores -- how would the space/heat dissipation constraints affect that? I assume it's a factor as it has been for the existing Pro line for the past year, but then again two years ago quads weren't in the line at all. Are they still impractical in a 13" laptop, or just in a very slim one (or not at all)?

Also, would the lack of a discrete GPU have a significant effect outside of gaming? For instance, would these be a problem?

- 1080p video playback
- running a 27" thunderbolt display alongside the laptop's own retina

Gaming wouldn't work too well, apart from that it's not a problem. 1080p video playback on a 1280*800 retina = 2560*1600 display while browsing MacRumors on a 27" display should work just fine (if you turn Flash off ). For gaming you probably want to use 1280 x 800 only.

 

[Astroexe]

I think they're more likely to create a new line of MacBooks and discontinue the old MacBook Pros, releasing a 13" or even 17" retina as the top-end model [yes I know it's just been discontinued, that's why I think they'd bring it back for the top-level instead of a 13"]. Why would Apple have their old-line MacBooks if they weren't having an option for those who can't afford the new Retina but want something heftier than the air?
A Mid-line MacBook would be tear-drop shaped, Flash storage, No Retina Display, 14" or 13" and available in Chrome or some other colour [Maybe White? Black?] Creating 5 Mac notebook sizes seems like a very smart thing for Apple to do, and creating a middle-range and more accessible option seems like a chance that Apple really shouldn't miss.

 

[Yinmay]

The reasons why people purchase the current MBP13 over the current Air 13 are
1) optical drive
2) larger harder disk
3) ethernet and firewire ports
4) slightly more processing power

A retina MBP13 would not have 1, 2 and 3.

Given that the MBP13 and Air have the same HD 4000, the only advantage left is 4. But the difference in processing power between the current MBP13 and Air is not enough by itself to justify picking the Pro over the Air.

Unless the 13" retina gets a quad core full voltage processor and a discrete GPU, perhaps 620M or 630M, it makes absolutely no sense compared to an Air with BTO retina display.

 

[NutsNGum]

Its not like apple has never done a 13" MBP with dedicated graphics before.

They haven't.

 

[NewbieCanada]

I personally really need Firewire, but with the thunderbolt ports and affordable adapters, it's a non-issue.

I have no issue with folks who need any technology. I have a firewire drive myself. My issue is with people who insisted Apple wasn't going to remove it when it was pretty clear they would.

 

[smoldering]

They haven't.

The first gen 13" came with GeForce 9400M and then 320M dedicated GPUs.

 

[Analog Kid]

Holding out for an 11" retina. Niche product for sure, but I really need a small and light, high resolution laptop to carry for tethered photography.

 

[CountSessine]

The 13" MBP never had a discrete GPU. It had an nVidia integrated GPU (integrated to the north bridge and sharing system memory).

Yup. Until Intel locked nVidia out of the north bridge business, laptop buyers actually an option to get good integrated graphics.

 

[Eidorian]

The first gen 13" came with GeForce 9400M and then 320M dedicated GPUs.

While offering much more powerful shaders, both are still integrated graphics sharing from the system RAM.

 

[ralphthemagi]

The first gen 13" came with GeForce 9400M and then 320M dedicated GPUs.

As someone pointed out above, those were not dedicated GPUs.

The old PowerBooks had dedicated GPUs IIRC. No Intel-based 13" has ever had a dedicated GPU. The NVIDIA solutions are IGPs, just third party IGPs.

In order for a GPU to be considered "dedicated" it needs it's own memory, and as a result has a significantly larger footprint on the logic board.

 

[KnightWRX]

The first gen 13" came with GeForce 9400M and then 320M dedicated GPUs.

Both those are chipsets with integrated GPUs. Not dedicated cards at all.

 

[smoldering]

As someone pointed out above, those were not dedicated GPUs.

The old PowerBooks had dedicated GPUs IIRC. No Intel-based 13" has ever had a dedicated GPU. The NVIDIA solutions are IGPs, just third party IGPs.

In order for a GPU to be considered "dedicated" it needs it's own memory, and as a result has a significantly larger footprint on the logic board.

Are they not graphics processing chips separate from the CPU? Is that not the definition of a dedicated GPU? I think there is some confusion here about the difference between a dedicated GPU and a discrete GPU (and it may be on my end...). Are these chips (or their contemporaries) really considered IGPs and are no better than Intel HD 3000/4000? I would think they are better, given that the 9400M was briefly the sole graphics solution on the base 15".

Are these solutions still available, or as CountSessine mentions, did Intel lock out options such as these, making a discrete GPU the only upgrade path?

 

[BSW13]

According to my calculation, the price of the 13" MBPr will be $1599.

Here's how it breaks down...

Just take the current 13" price and compare that to a 15" price... the 15" is $600 more.

Now take the normal 15" MBP and compare it to the 15" MBPR... the MBPR is $400 more.

So..... $2199 - $600 = $1599
and.... $1199 + $400 = $1599

Makes perfect sense!

I doubt it will be that cheap. You can't compare it to the legacy MBP's 13 or 15 inch.

The legacy 13 inch MBP's replacement is the 13 inch MBA, hence the identical pricing.

I assume the new Macbook Pro will only be 128g SSD, so lets start with the 13inch MBA 1199. Add 4g ram which in apple pricing structure is $100. I assume they will bump to the I-7 cpu so add another $100. I'm guessing the price premium Apple will add for the Retina screen is $300-$400

$1199+$100+$100+$300/$400= $1699-$1799

The higher end model will be add 256g SSD in apple pricing structure that is + $300

That gives apple the line up:

11inch MBA
-$999
-$1099

13inch MBA
-$1199
-$1499

13inch MBP
-$1699 or $1799
-$1999 or $2099

15inch MBP
-$2199
-$2799

 

[KnightWRX]

Are they not graphics processing chips separate from the CPU? Is that not the definition of a dedicated GPU?

No, that is not the definition of a dedicated GPU. A dedicated GPU has its own die, is a seperate chip and uses RAM reserved to itself.

Integrated GPUs, be they the new type "On the CPU die" or the old type "on the chipset die" share space with other system components (in the case of the 9400m and 320m, we're talking about the PCI bridge, memory controller, I/O controller) and share system RAM with the CPU for framebuffer and texture storage.

The 320M and 9400M were both IGPs, Integrated Graphics Processor.

 

[NutsNGum]

The first gen 13" came with GeForce 9400M and then 320M dedicated GPUs.

Both integrated.

 

[Limboistik]

I doubt it will be that cheap. You can't compare it to the legacy MBP's 13 or 15 inch.

The legacy 13 inch MBP's replacement is the 13 inch MBA, hence the identical pricing.

I assume the new Macbook Pro will only be 128g SSD, so lets start with the 13inch MBA 1199. Add 4g ram which in apple pricing structure is $100. I assume they will bump to the I-7 cpu so add another $100. I'm guessing the price premium Apple will add for the Retina screen is $300-$400

$1199+$100+$100+$300/$400= $1699-$1799

The higher end model will be add 256g SSD in apple pricing structure that is + $300

That gives apple the line up:

11inch MBA
-$999
-$1099

13inch MBA
-$1199
-$1499

13inch MBP
-$1699 or $1799
-$1999 or $2099

15inch MBP
-$2199
-$2799

Looks about right.
I'm interested to see what's to come next year when they refresh.
Would they simply drop the price? Or bump the specs and keep the entry the point same?

Time will tell.

 

[jeremyshaw]

Are they not graphics processing chips separate from the CPU? Is that not the definition of a dedicated GPU? I think there is some confusion here about the difference between a dedicated GPU and a discrete GPU (and it may be on my end...). Are these chips (or their contemporaries) really considered IGPs and are no better than Intel HD 3000/4000? I would think they are better, given that the 9400M was briefly the sole graphics solution on the base 15".

Are these solutions still available, or as CountSessine mentions, did Intel lock out options such as these, making a discrete GPU the only upgrade path?

nVidia used to have a FSB chipset license (everything before the Core "i" i3/i5/i7). Then, when Intel made the move to DMI (rather, when the only remaining exposed chipset interface was DMI [the NB--SB connection], due to Intel moving the NB on package, then on die), they did not allow nVidia to aquire a DMI license.

That is why the Core/Core2 chips where the only ones which had nVidia chipsets (for Apple computers). It's also the exact reason why the MBP13 with the 320m IGP had a Core 2 Duo, while the rest of the lineup had Core i5/i7 with GT330m dedicated GPUs (the early Intel Arrandale IGPs were little more than modified, old P45 NBs put on package with the CPU).

 

[Konrad]

I doubt it will be that cheap. You can't compare it to the legacy MBP's 13 or 15 inch.


That gives apple the line up:

11inch MBA
-$999
-$1099

13inch MBA
-$1199
-$1499

13inch MBP
-$1699 or $1799
-$1999 or $2099

15inch MBP
-$2199
-$2799

It would be more realistic of you corrected the 15MBP to $1999.- and $2499.- respectively and continued with the remaining line up accordingly. The market sustainability is different and the retina and SSD by full offer completion will all bring the prices down.

The above prices you suggested would be of significant detriment to the projected and needed quantity.