19inch LCD's and PowerBooks November 5, 2002

[Foocha]

I think we all have some OS X war stories - there have been times when OS 9 has come to the rescue for me as well - although those time are less common these days.

It's interesting to note that Windows 98 couldn't handle your problem either... still there's no excuse for a system freeze.

OS 9 is a cruder thing than X, but this does make it more suited to certain tasks. I've noticed that Apple still uses OS 9 for firmware updates. OS 9 is ideally suited to this because the update app has more direct access to the hardware and can monopolise the processor. I'm intrigued to see what Apple will do when they finally scrap 9.

 

[e-coli]

Originally posted by Foocha
The days when OS 9 or Windows 98 were adequate operating systems are long gone. Whether you're a Mac or Windows user, the issue is the same - modern computing tasks require a modern OS. OS X and Windows XP are both great operating systems - they are both considerably more demanding on the hardware that runs them. The answer is to upgrade your OS and your hardware.

The only Windows machine I have is running windows 98. It runs great, it's thin and fast. Sure it crashes, but that's just windows. Windows 2000 is a train wreck.

And I can name you 10 major design firms still running 9. It's still a perfectly viable OS, and will be for a few years to come. I personally prefer X, but to each his own. The only real benefit to OS X is in video or 3D work, where there is a need for full multi-processor support. For print or wwweb work, OS 9 is just fine. (although I find the text rendering in OS X to be invaluable for typesetting).

Why do we need an OS that eats system resources? As for upgrading your OS and your hardware, that's playing right into what Apple wants you to do. They should show more support for legacy customers.

 

[iShater]

Re: The new PowerBook better be good!

Originally posted by Marvenp

But then I opened my e-mail today to find this CNet article:
http://www.cnet.com/techtrends/0-6014-7-20573465.html
Can anyone say PB clone? So the PB's better be re-designed to kick some Windose a$$!

HOLY!!!!!!!!!!!


I guess I have to swing BB to check it out, even though I hate that place.

This is a switch campaign buster .. at least for people who are saving to buy a PB ... IF ... this machine delivers. We shall see.

 

[wsteineker]

ALERT: HIJACKED THREAD!!!

Sooooo... Back to the topic at hand...

I wonder if the new 19" LCD will sport a case redesign. I personally like the pinstripes. I think they bring a visual continuity to the desktop by mirroring OS Xs menus. Still, I have heard a lot of complaints about the current look.

Also, any hard evidence (or even wiggly yet firm evidence) on the new PowerBook specs? I myself will be in teh market in a month or so and would LOVE to go mobile.

 

[The Grimace]

Sooooo... Back to the topic at hand...

Good point. I too am interested to see what developes as we may be in the market for a new Mac come January. I'm hoping this signals the advent of the FP iMac line being standardized with the 17", with perhaps a 15" at the low-end and a 19" at the high end. I checked out the 17" a couple o' days ago at a local retailer, and I must say that I was very impressed. I like the wide aspect. Don't know that it would work for a 19" version, but who knows.

(tig)

 

[Rower_CPU]

One more note on the LCD price/consumer focus issue.

All of Apple's "consumer" computers come with built in displays (iMac, eMac). Why complain that the LCDs are out of range for consumers when they aren't even _for_ the consumer machines?

PowerMacs and Apple's displays are for professional users who are willing to pay a premium for the hardware.

Priorities people; Apple's are not neccessarily yours.

 

[BJNY]

I 'll take two Apple 19" LCD displays if:

1) wide aspect ratio
2) thin bezel as Titanium built-in display
3) VESA compliant to allow wall/arm mount
4) cost no more than $1199

 

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by topicolo
I don't understand why apple keeps trying to move their overall price range up... Why do they have to discontinue their 15" LCD? I think it's absurd to consider yourself a consumer oriented computer company when your cheapest LCD monitor is $999!

I understand what you mean, but these are geared toward the professional line, not the consumer line. The iMac/emac is the regular consumer product. Granted I'd like to see the prices drop too.

 

[Frobozz]

19" LCD

"19" LCD's can be found from other vendors now for about $800"

That's simply not true. There are no quality LCD's available for that price. I just bought an 18" top of the line SONY SDM-X82 for $830 and it's only 1280 x 1024. Apple's displays have several features that most third party vendors do not:

- High resolution: 1600 x 1024 is not available until you hit 19" on other vendors, and those are all over $1300 each.

- Good refresh, brightness, contrast. Most vendors do have good specs on these when you get to larger sized, but Apple always uses the top of the line screens.

- DVI/ADC. Not all LCD's are created equal. While it is true you can get an LCD cheaply, it's not something you want as your main monitor. Unless you have a digital connector your image quality will be lower.

- Industrial design. The Sony was one of about 3 displays that I would not be ashamed to put next to my Quicksilver DP 1 Ghz baby. Formac, Sony, Apple, and usually a random other party. The cheaper the LCD, the worse it's industrial design.

 

[Kid Red]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 19inch LCD's and PowerBooks November 5, 2002

Originally posted by andrewh


If you want my review of the Gallery 2010 I'll give it to you. I just got mine today, and man, it is simply awesome. Stunning. So bright, and the colors are are so rich. Zero dead pixels. I was waiting for apple to release new displays and thought about two 17's or the 22" cinema but went for the Formac and I'm really happy with it. I'd love to compare this display side by side with an Apple to know for sure, but I think this one is actually better. Or, at least as good for a lot less money. It's 600:1 contrast and 250 nits brightness. Looks awesome in the middle of the Soundsticks. If you can wait until December or January for a new Apple display it might be worth it but you can't go wrong with the Gallery 2010.

I have the CD now with a dual gig. But will be putting them both on ebay once the 970 debuts. It would probably be easier to put the 2 up on ebay, even if not, I wanted to know if the Formac was an 'upgrade' because of the contrast ratio. The CD is sweet so I can imagine the clarity on the Formac at nearly double the ratio. So, if you can, maybe swing by an Apple store or CompUSA and compare the two?

Nice to hear it's nice, I have the soundsticks too, btw.

 

[formasfunction]

interesting

I find it interesting that this was posted by NatronB 10/21/02 at
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13200

"You will get your new Powerbook in two weeks.... let's say, November 5th.


Call it a hunch....."


Looks like it may be a good call.

 

[tjwett]

17, 19, & 23 is all good as long as they don't START at $1000. it's just silly to have your cheapest monitor priced at a grand. if the 17 becomes $599 i'll buy another one.

 

[porovaara]

Re: 19" LCD

Originally posted by Frobozz
[BApple's displays have several features that most third party vendors do not:
[/B]

And one other thing, very high pixel refresh times compared to other vendors high end screens. No, this is not a good thing. Apple really needs to work on hard on getting the 40-50ms refresh times on their screens down to match other leading 15-20ms times.

 

[Somebody]

9 vs. X; Also, LCD prices

I'll be pretty disappointed if the new PowerBooks won't run OS 9. I've been waiting for this update to buy one, and while I would have never considered switching to the Mac if OS X hadn't been in the works (I've been a unix geek for a good while), there are certainly some areas where it isn't yet up to snuff.

In my case, it's DVD playback -- I often find that the Apple DVD player under OS X crashes at certain points of certain discs, with "Error -36". Wiping the disc off doesn't usually help. But the vast majority of the time that this happens, I reboot to OS 9 and find that the DVD player there will play the disc flawlessly.

I agree that it's probably time for Apple to drop the prices on its LCDs a bit; That said, I don't for a minute regret the $1000 I spent on the 17" model a year and a half ago. It's the best monitor I've ever owned.

 

[ncbill]

Powerbooks won't ship until January 2003

Modern memory management?

Paging to disk is how many times slower than accessing real RAM?
(can this even be fixed without rewriting the kernel?)

BTW, I'll be glad to buy that G4 iBook to run OS X when they're available 15-18 months from now.

Slightly more on-topic, does anyone really believe new Powerbooks will be _shipping_ in 2 weeks?

Sure, I can see an announcement, for shipment in January!

Originally posted by Foocha
What you call disk thrashing, I call modern memory management!

The days when OS 9 or Windows 98 were adequate operating systems are long gone. Whether you're a Mac or Windows user, the issue is the same - modern computing tasks require a modern OS. OS X and Windows XP are both great operating systems - they are both considerably more demanding on the hardware that runs them. The answer is to upgrade your OS and your hardware.

 

[iShater]

Originally posted by pgwalsh
I understand what you mean, but these are geared toward the professional line, not the consumer line. The iMac/emac is the regular consumer product. Granted I'd like to see the prices drop too.

I am a consumer, I don't want a machine that has a BUILT-IN monitor, I like to have choices. So the only option I would have with a Mac is to go with a PowerMac. So for someone like me who would have to shell the extra $$ to go for the "pro" machines, not much is left to go spend on the Apple monitors. I know I have other choices, but it would have been nice if Apple kept the 15" for a cheaper price. That might mean they get a smaller profit margin than if I would have bought a 17", but I can't get one, so those extra $$ they would make off me are going somewhere else.

 

[Fishy1500]

Argh, now Apple is releasing new screens??? I waited quite a while for a 19" lcd to come out on Oct 1 (after that promotion) but since it didn't, I bought a 22" cinema display (used of course, but perfect aesthetically & in working order) for $1500. I was really happy with the display (best thing i've ever used before) but now they are discontinuing it already? Sigh... Well, if Apple does really come out with a 19" on Nov 5, and if it really is widescreen, I think I might have to go get one of those too since I've been itching to buy a brand new apple display for so long

Should've waited another 3 weeks...
-Fishy1500

 

[robguz]

Re: 19" LCD

Originally posted by Frobozz
"19" LCD's can be found from other vendors now for about $800"

That's simply not true. There are no quality LCD's available for that price. I just bought an 18" top of the line SONY SDM-X82 for $830 and it's only 1280 x 1024. Apple's displays have several features that most third party vendors do not:

- High resolution: 1600 x 1024 is not available until you hit 19" on other vendors, and those are all over $1300 each.

- Good refresh, brightness, contrast. Most vendors do have good specs on these when you get to larger sized, but Apple always uses the top of the line screens.

- DVI/ADC. Not all LCD's are created equal. While it is true you can get an LCD cheaply, it's not something you want as your main monitor. Unless you have a digital connector your image quality will be lower.

- Industrial design. The Sony was one of about 3 displays that I would not be ashamed to put next to my Quicksilver DP 1 Ghz baby. Formac, Sony, Apple, and usually a random other party. The cheaper the LCD, the worse it's industrial design.

Hmm, LCD prices have come down dramatically from everyone except Apple. I almost bought a KDS Radius Rad-9 19" 1280x1024 for about $710 shipped. This is a highly rated monitor with better viewing angle and contrast ratio than Apple's current $1000 17" model. The thing is Apple keeps their monitors for a long time and rarely cust prices except for the high end cinema displays. So they need to make sure the 19" model is no more than $1000 and really ought to make them $800 since 6 months from now 19" LCD will be routinely under $700.

Apple already charges exhorbitant prices for macs, can't they at least make their monitors competetive. I'd love to have an Apple monitor, but just can't justify the cost over and above competitors. I can justify it for macs since nothing else runs OSX, but several hundred more for a nicer case and ADC (which severely limits it's resale value since no PC users can buy it) is just too much. Let's hope Apple gets it right and gives us great monitors at reasonable prices.

 

[soosy]

Re: 9 vs. X; Also, LCD prices

Originally posted by Somebody
I agree that it's probably time for Apple to drop the prices on its LCDs a bit; That said, I don't for a minute regret the $1000 I spent on the 17" model a year and a half ago. It's the best monitor I've ever owned.

That's the problem I see -- 17" is the same price now as it was a year and a half ago. (yeah, there are rebates if you buy it with a new mac....)

In that time, Apple's LCD has become overpriced and away from the cutting edge of technology.

I think they need to refresh their line-up or at least refresh their prices more often.

I'm glad they are FINALLY going to release a 19". I've been waiting long for it... although I just may end up buying a 17" instead due to price.


The other thing that bothers me is the ADC connection. I don't think it is worth having a non-standard port. You have to get video card makers to include it. Power comes from the computer (which generates more heat so we get wind-tunnel powermacs). You need funny adapters to hook up two monitors...
But really, it's just that it isn't what all the other monitors out there have. I like how Apple is embracing standards recently, wish they'd just use standard DVI on their monitors as well.

 

[elensil]

W-I-D-E ???

Are the new screens going to be Wide Scream?

Are they keeping an old 17" or releasing a new 17" found on iMacs. If its new, it should be cheaper then old 17" and its resolution of 1440 x 960 is quite good.

 

[Fezwick]

Originally posted by scem0
Right now, CRTs offer good enough quality and resolution to make LCDs not worth the money unless you really like pretty things . I am using an apple CRT 17 " studio display and I love it. No need for an LCD till they go down in price.

I'm with you dude. I got a 21 inch CRT Apple studio display and i love it. They can keep their LCD's!

 

[s_gundam]

19" LCD pixel size...

if its 1600 x 1024, that would be the same as the 22" cinema display right now.. also meaning that it would be wide screen. (I have a 22" now). I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 on the 19", $2400 for 22" (the same as now?), and $3500 for 23" (also the same as now?). Apple is selling its brand name. you want cheap? go with someone else. When the heck has Apple ever be affordable? Its close sometimes.. but..

1600 x 1024 also means heak-a-small pixels.. should look like photo quality. That'll be nice.

willing to buy a 52" anyday,
-s_gundam

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Re: Powerbooks won't ship until January 2003

Originally posted by ncbill
Modern memory management?

Paging to disk is how many times slower than accessing real RAM?
(can this even be fixed without rewriting the kernel?)

So buy more RAM - it's cheap.

BTW, when OS 9 has to page out to virtual memory - it is much slower than OS X's implementation.

Oh - but OS 9 "allows" me to set how much RAM each program gets - that's nice.

 

[e-coli]

Re: 19" LCD

Originally posted by Frobozz
Apple always uses the top of the line screens.

That's a load of crud. Apple's LCD screens are hardly stellar. They're relatively dim, and color reproduction isn't that great. The screen on my fiance's Dell laptop (3 years old) is better than any Apple branded display i've seen. It's 15", resolution of 1400 x 1050, extremely bright and color accurate.

A quick jaunt over to Formac should prove my point, as well.

 

[e-coli]

Re: W-I-D-E ???

Originally posted by elensil
Are the new screens going to be Wide Scream?

Yes, the resolution indicates it will be wide screen.