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iPad 1Gb of RAM is enough, be happy :)
- Thread starter MartinAppleGuy
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It is not integrated into the A8 die itself, but as an additional package stacked on the A8 package, aka Package-on-Package. So it can definitely be changed by designing a new memory package to stack on the main chip, or can even take the memory "off-chip" like what the full-size iPad had.
I see. Was just wondering how easy it would be to up it. Sounds like they could do it if they wanted to then.
Yes, I see they doing it on the iPad Air 2 only (not even the iPad Mini 3 which I'm guessing will the the same as the iPhone 6's). It allows the RAM suppliers to increase the amount produced slowly so the demand can slowly ramp up.
Safari is definitely better on iPad air under iOS 8. Still reloads tabs but keeping two or three open rarely results in reloading. Part of it is app development. Looooong after being done with flipboard, it still remembers my last location. A good example of some developer magic.
2 gb of RAM would be nice as long as it's not a license for developers to get lazy. Also keep the 1gb for so long ensures a TON of backwards compatibility.
2 gb of RAM would be nice as long as it's not a license for developers to get lazy. Also keep the 1gb for so long ensures a TON of backwards compatibility.
One gigabyte of RAM is not enough for any device running iOS 7 or later
Iowa seven is capable of taking up one gigabyte of RAM leaving zero free memory. However iOS 7 will relinquish up to 600 MB of memory for an app which is acceptable. However iOS eight is much more unreasonable. It will only relinquish 300 to 350 MB tops especially on an iPhone six or 5S.basically the newer and more complicated the device the more features it has and the more the operating system uses and will refuse to relinquish
I am a fan of Apple and they make good products but one of apples downfalls and it's mobile devices is they have the least amount of RAM versus most android devices. Also most android devices use a page or swap filesystem of 128 to 512 MB. Thisthis swapfile on androids art for running multiple apps at once as that would like the system, but what it is for is letting background apps sit suspended in memory. That is not possible under ios 8. If you run a second app after time iOS eight will terminate your first app if you run a third app it will definitely terminate one or both of the other two, and I'm not talking about a high memory use game, I am talking about one webpage, find friends, And then opening up a Facebook app. If I do that I come back and the webpage seems to be reloaded because Safari was terminated and people can no longer locate me on find friends because I was terminated find friends. One thing Apple should do it is have Apple only API calls which already exist but they need to add more. One of those API calls is an API call flag in the operating system telling it it may not terminate this app under any circumstance. FF should have that flag
Bottom line I would be okay with 1 GB of RAM if Apple used i'll swap file. A nice 512 MB swapfile would be perfect then iOS could swap out all I needed operating system daemons and all background apps leaving 800MB for an app
however, one of the things that many of us forget is that the PlayStation three only has 512 MB. That 512 MB is all there is for code and texture memory. So why are we seeing the App Store filled with all of these garbage crappy games versus the awesome games that the PS3 can run? The only answer I can think of are there morons in the mobile community who don't want to pay more than $9.99 for app. The iPad 3 or any iPad newer than the three can easily outperform a PlayStation three, and the same goes for the iPhone 5 or any iPhone later than that. I do not count iPod touches as that's apples bottom of the barrel devices, And even the iPod touches have trouble running current App Store apps
The iPad Air 2 ISO getting 2GB. So it will have 1.4GB free ram for apps.
But what most people also don't know is there is a page file built into iOS 7. However is that it is only 4 kB in size, and iOS eight page file is 16 kB in size. So if you open certain memory utilities youWilsee millions of page ins and page outs if you devices been on for a while. That's why I jailbroken device could no longer have a swap file. If people attempt to activate the swapfile on anything later than iOS 6 the device will blue screen crash into a blue screen crash loop because the operating system itself is creating a teeny tiny swapfile and this conflicts with it
So this is where I do not understand apples mentality and thinking. They put a teeny tiny swapfile to keep the operating system from crashing; yet all they have to do is expand it to 128, 256, or 512 MB and the devices would perform a lot better
I love Apple mobile products a lot but unless Apple really steps up and adds more memory they are going to fall behind and lose ground to the android devices that have a lot more memory and a lot more page space. At least they are getting it right with the iPad Air 2, but they really dropped the phone on the iPhone 6 an iPhone 6+; these devices were supposed to have 2 GB of RAM and Apple stuck us with one. I have an iPhone 6 it's a beautiful piece of hardware, and is it is extremely limited due to the lack of RAM
If some genius out there could find a way to jailbreak iOS eight, and disable it's built in teeny tiny page file so we could use the actual iOS swapfile service that would be fantastic. That's the only reason why I stopped jailbreaking my devices because iOS 1-5 can have a swap file. iOS 6-8 crashes when a swap file is added and crashes into a blue screen crash loop and only. DFU restore fixes it. I remember back in the day having an iOS for device with only 256 MB of RAM, and adding add 256 MB swapfile made the device perform 20 times better and the same goes for new devices. They don't needA swapfile equal to the amount of RAM, they just need a swapfile 256 to 512 MB in size to basically swap out all the memory that iOS gobbles up. Then when the person is done with the app iOS can swap its services back in that itdoes it need running while an app is running. Or it can also swap out background apps that don't need to be running versus terminating them. In any case this is the one department where Apple is Horrifically behind the times.
And the argument that a swapfile would ruin the NAND flash memory was decided and won along time ago: that yes a swapfile will reduce the life of the flash ram however it will not reduce the life significantly enough to affect the device meaning the device will stop working before the flash ran will - even if I swap file is heavily used. And today's flash memory is smart even if I swap file is heavily used it does not use the same area of memory over and over and over again and where that one part out. END RANT
My apologies for typos, weird words, or weird grammar. I posted this entire post using the iPhone's speech to text recognition feature, and it's pretty darn good but it doesn't get everything right
Iowa seven is capable of taking up one gigabyte of RAM leaving zero free memory. However iOS 7 will relinquish up to 600 MB of memory for an app which is acceptable. However iOS eight is much more unreasonable. It will only relinquish 300 to 350 MB tops especially on an iPhone six or 5S.basically the newer and more complicated the device the more features it has and the more the operating system uses and will refuse to relinquish
I am a fan of Apple and they make good products but one of apples downfalls and it's mobile devices is they have the least amount of RAM versus most android devices. Also most android devices use a page or swap filesystem of 128 to 512 MB. Thisthis swapfile on androids art for running multiple apps at once as that would like the system, but what it is for is letting background apps sit suspended in memory. That is not possible under ios 8. If you run a second app after time iOS eight will terminate your first app if you run a third app it will definitely terminate one or both of the other two, and I'm not talking about a high memory use game, I am talking about one webpage, find friends, And then opening up a Facebook app. If I do that I come back and the webpage seems to be reloaded because Safari was terminated and people can no longer locate me on find friends because I was terminated find friends. One thing Apple should do it is have Apple only API calls which already exist but they need to add more. One of those API calls is an API call flag in the operating system telling it it may not terminate this app under any circumstance. FF should have that flag
Bottom line I would be okay with 1 GB of RAM if Apple used i'll swap file. A nice 512 MB swapfile would be perfect then iOS could swap out all I needed operating system daemons and all background apps leaving 800MB for an app
however, one of the things that many of us forget is that the PlayStation three only has 512 MB. That 512 MB is all there is for code and texture memory. So why are we seeing the App Store filled with all of these garbage crappy games versus the awesome games that the PS3 can run? The only answer I can think of are there morons in the mobile community who don't want to pay more than $9.99 for app. The iPad 3 or any iPad newer than the three can easily outperform a PlayStation three, and the same goes for the iPhone 5 or any iPhone later than that. I do not count iPod touches as that's apples bottom of the barrel devices, And even the iPod touches have trouble running current App Store apps
The iPad Air 2 ISO getting 2GB. So it will have 1.4GB free ram for apps.
But what most people also don't know is there is a page file built into iOS 7. However is that it is only 4 kB in size, and iOS eight page file is 16 kB in size. So if you open certain memory utilities youWilsee millions of page ins and page outs if you devices been on for a while. That's why I jailbroken device could no longer have a swap file. If people attempt to activate the swapfile on anything later than iOS 6 the device will blue screen crash into a blue screen crash loop because the operating system itself is creating a teeny tiny swapfile and this conflicts with it
So this is where I do not understand apples mentality and thinking. They put a teeny tiny swapfile to keep the operating system from crashing; yet all they have to do is expand it to 128, 256, or 512 MB and the devices would perform a lot better
I love Apple mobile products a lot but unless Apple really steps up and adds more memory they are going to fall behind and lose ground to the android devices that have a lot more memory and a lot more page space. At least they are getting it right with the iPad Air 2, but they really dropped the phone on the iPhone 6 an iPhone 6+; these devices were supposed to have 2 GB of RAM and Apple stuck us with one. I have an iPhone 6 it's a beautiful piece of hardware, and is it is extremely limited due to the lack of RAM
If some genius out there could find a way to jailbreak iOS eight, and disable it's built in teeny tiny page file so we could use the actual iOS swapfile service that would be fantastic. That's the only reason why I stopped jailbreaking my devices because iOS 1-5 can have a swap file. iOS 6-8 crashes when a swap file is added and crashes into a blue screen crash loop and only. DFU restore fixes it. I remember back in the day having an iOS for device with only 256 MB of RAM, and adding add 256 MB swapfile made the device perform 20 times better and the same goes for new devices. They don't needA swapfile equal to the amount of RAM, they just need a swapfile 256 to 512 MB in size to basically swap out all the memory that iOS gobbles up. Then when the person is done with the app iOS can swap its services back in that itdoes it need running while an app is running. Or it can also swap out background apps that don't need to be running versus terminating them. In any case this is the one department where Apple is Horrifically behind the times.
And the argument that a swapfile would ruin the NAND flash memory was decided and won along time ago: that yes a swapfile will reduce the life of the flash ram however it will not reduce the life significantly enough to affect the device meaning the device will stop working before the flash ran will - even if I swap file is heavily used. And today's flash memory is smart even if I swap file is heavily used it does not use the same area of memory over and over and over again and where that one part out. END RANT
My apologies for typos, weird words, or weird grammar. I posted this entire post using the iPhone's speech to text recognition feature, and it's pretty darn good but it doesn't get everything right
EDITED TO FIX TYPOS AND GRAMMAR ERRORS as the post didn't make sense.
To be honest backwards compatibility needs to be ditched if Apple wants to really move forward in the mobile market
And this is NOT a major incompatibility like the PS four versus the PS3 ..... it's simply that newer apps would require devices that I have 2 gigabytes of RAM in order to run...if you don't have 2 GB of RAM then you can't run the app. However Apple could easily get around this backwards compatibility by allowing the user to flick a switch in settings saying: yes I would like a 512 MB swapfile (and it could be set up for 128,256, or 512MB).....Then that would allow one gigabyte devices to run apps that require 2 GB because it would swap out virtually all of the operating system ,that's not needed ,leaving 800 900 MB free for an app. Because on a 2 GB iOS eight system without a swapfile only 1.2 to 1.3 GB will be available for apps to use.
And alreadythere are backwards Compatibility issues. Certain apps require a certain version of iOS or later to run, other apps require a certain level of hardware or better to run. So I have no problems with Apple putting 2 GB of RAM in devices that are newer and developers sayingsorry you need 2GB of RAM or more to run this app
And this has nothing to do with lazy developers. You need at least 512 MB of RAM to make a decent game. The PS3 had 512 MB of RAM and a can still run awesome games and it runs games better than I was devices do and the iOS devices already have better hardware that the PS3. Directories reasons why we do not see PS3 quality games on iOS devices one iOS hogs too much memory it eats one full gigabyte of RAM and on certain devices like the new iPhone 6 is it will only free up 300 MB which is not enough on an iPhone 5 S it will free up 500 MB of memory if you're lucky. The second reason is the mobile community even if you had a $75 PS3 quality game come out for the iOS operating system people would whine and cry about the price tag just because it's a mobile device and people need to get over that. Yes it is a mobile device but now on mobile devices are more powerful than previous generations of console gaming machines.
I've been a developer and programmer since I was 16 years old, that was a long time ago almost 24yrs. Back then we only had 300 kB of memory to work with because PCs could only address 1 GB of RAM and after Dawson windows was loaded you were lucky to only have 300 MB available for programs.however windows had a swapfile so you could swap out most of the operating system and have quite a bit of memory available for your app. So yes while some developers can be lazy and sloppy most are not and with the hardware that currently exists in iOS devices one gigabyte of RAM is not enough because the operating system takes up too much, there's no swapfile to swap memory out, and iOS is terrible about managing it's own memory
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That was cool. I assume Iowa Seven meant iOS 7...
lol. Yes Iowa was supposed to be iOS, and I tried to catch the phones mistakes but I don't always. So hopefully people will understand what I'm trying to say despite them. My left hand is currently broken so I cannot hold my phone and cannot properly type on it so I must rely on speech to text for the next few weeks maybe a month
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One last thing before people flaming for my posts. I am definitely not an Apple hater. Everything in my house is Apple with the exception of my computers, Wi-Fi routers and Wi-Fi access points. Basically I do not own a laptop anymore - I have an iPad Air. And for a phone I have an iPhone 6+. Although I may boot and run Windows 8.1 on my Alienware PC, I run the most current version of OS X in a Oracle VM window because there are some things that I just do not trust to windows. Oh I was forgot I also have three Apple TVs because they rock and they play on my content that I have an iTunes which is about 10 TB of data and no other device can play it because it is purchased content from the Apple store
So yes I am a huge Apple fan but I'm also realistic person and I do not let my Apple fandom blind me into thinking that Apple is infallible and some all knowing great God of the technological infrastructure of the world. They have flaws just like any other company. And in my opinion,apple's biggest flaw with their mobile devices is the lack of RAM and I has always been the case stepping up and adding one extra gigabyte of RAM would barely affected the cost of it of the device. This is true starting a year or two ago but wouldn'thave been true around iOS 5 earlier. Back then trying to put one or 2 GB into an iPhone two or three would've significantly altered the price of the device
So yes I am a huge Apple fan but I'm also realistic person and I do not let my Apple fandom blind me into thinking that Apple is infallible and some all knowing great God of the technological infrastructure of the world. They have flaws just like any other company. And in my opinion,apple's biggest flaw with their mobile devices is the lack of RAM and I has always been the case stepping up and adding one extra gigabyte of RAM would barely affected the cost of it of the device. This is true starting a year or two ago but wouldn'thave been true around iOS 5 earlier. Back then trying to put one or 2 GB into an iPhone two or three would've significantly altered the price of the device
It would greatly help iOS eight. A swapfile would not be needed on the iPad air to as 2 GB is sufficient. However I swapfile even on the iPad air two would allow users to run more apps in the background versus them being terminated. They could be suspended and swapped to swapfile. That is the most annoying thing that iOS 7 and iOS8 does. Is they terminate apps once you reach may be 2 to 4 simple apps running, and that's ridiculous when android devices can have up to 8, 9, or 10 apps running because they have a swap file
The only time a swap file becomes bad is when it is used to completely substitute for RAM . What I mean is anything that's swapped to the swap file must be idle that way it's not "grinding "the swapfile like it can on a Windows or OS X machine. This way you can have 10 tabs in Safari open, and when you go to any of those 10 tabs the webpage doesn't have to reload and your place is not lost or the post you're currently working on is not lost. It's simply loads the data from the swapfile and resumes where you left off. When I Jailbroke one of my older iPhones that use run iOS 5 and put on a 512 MB swapfile I could have more apps running and more tabs open in Safari then I can on my iPhone six running iOS eight
And what's really sad is iOS is just a modified stripped-down version of OS X. So it is completely capable of swapfile use in fact it has a swapfile built into it. iOS 7 has a 4KB swapfile iOS eight has a 16 KB swapfile. why? If it OS has no swapfile whatsoever and runs out of memory it will crash. So Apple puts a teeny tiny swapfile to keep the OS stable and then attempts to let iOS manage its own memory by terminating apps, sending developers warning messages that memory is low.all of that is completely absurd in today's day and age and is not needed. All new Apple devices need to gigabytes of RAM along with a user configurable swapfile that way the user can configure the swap file and can decide do I want performance versus more simulated ram. Because a small swapfile Will not hurt performance. However once you have a swapfile greater than 50% of the actual ram on any machine you will start to D grade performance. That's like having a Windows box running windows on 2 GB of RAM with a 2 GB swapfile. The OS would think it has 4 GB to work with and would be constantly grinding that swapfile
In the case of iOS if you have a 1 GB device, you allow the user to pick a 128 to 256 or 512 MB swapfile. 512 MB would make the device a little bit choppy some of the times but there are many people who would gladly except the choppiness versus having apps and tabs while browsing terminated on them. Whereas 128 in 256 MB would simply actually increase the devices performance and make it perform better because all that's being swapped out is idle memory and not active memory. That's why you don't want your swapfile too big where you end up swapping out active memory and the device or computer starts to lag
That is the end of swapfile 101 use for dummies. And why Apple can not simply implement this goes beyond me. I hate the android OS and I have 10 TB worth of apps music movies and TV shows that of been purchased off the App Store over the last 6+ years so I'm not about to switch to android and waste all that money
Your posts are really informative.But as I understood reading your posts that Android OS is better having swapfile,and now you are saying that you hate Android? Do you have any arguments for that?
)please don't hate me) but now I'm reading this forum almost every day and you can see that IOS now left behind Android for having poor memory management (the main complain goes for Safari browser here) And Android now has got great performance boost with Android L (which is on beta yet)
But you would be totally right saying that many manufacturers of Android phones are copying Ipad and Iphone design,that many of Android apps/games are ported from IOS
I hate the android OS because of the UI. I don't like how it looks, feels, operates....and it lacks a lot of iOS feature, BUT it performs much better than iOS.
I should say it another way
I love EVERYTHING about iOS ... Except iOS devices lack RAM and have CRAP memory management. Example: playing a game. You get a phone call. iOS TERMINATES your game. When call is over, the game starts over and progress lost
If you have only 1 iOS app running iOS should NEVER EVER EVER terminate that game/app without user permission and just terminate iOS services as 75% are not needed when gaming. As I said CRAPPY a memory management.
Apple needs to fix it by adding another gigabyte of RAM to all of their devices or a much easier fix is release iOS a point to that puts a swapfile on every device and let's see user choose 128 to 256 or 512 MB of RAM....there are many different flavors of android out there for various devices. Some don't have swap files but most do. Most have set swap files usually 256 MB. However some are user configurable swapfile sizes
My point is Apple can do a lot better, and it's not about lazy developers, it's about the fact that if I'm playing a game and a phone call comes in I lose all progress in my game and that should never happen. If I'm running just one app... that app should never be terminated unless that app tries to use more than 512MB ram...iOS 8 needs 512MB minimum. Let unneeded iOS services try to run and crash from out of memory errors I don't care .... but my game should never be terminated on me just because Ios wants load a bunch of services, when my game goes in the background , that I don't need at the moment
iOS developers do have a set of API calls and tools to preevent what I mentioned above. iOS does send a warning message to a game or app that it needs memory and it is about to terminate that app. An app then gets the opportunity to either shut itself down or dump the memory it's been using to a file on the storage device sort of like hibernating a Windows or OS X operating system, and when the game or app restarts it leaves off where it left off
The problem with the above system is that iOS often terminates an app to quickly and does not give it a chance to save the data like I mentioned above. If Ios always did give every app an advanced warning and if every iOS app was properly coded to save its memory state before being terminated so it could resume where it left off .....I would have no problem with iOS terminating anything whenever it wanted to. However I am not seeing this happen, iOS constantly terminates my apps and they do not resume where they left off. Of course this could be a huge fault at the developers not following proper Apple guidelines
However I am a small developer of iOS apps and I've tested this feature myself and 9 out of 10 Xs, iOS will terminate the app without even sending it a warning message... Just poof terminate.
I should say it another way
I love EVERYTHING about iOS ... Except iOS devices lack RAM and have CRAP memory management. Example: playing a game. You get a phone call. iOS TERMINATES your game. When call is over, the game starts over and progress lost
If you have only 1 iOS app running iOS should NEVER EVER EVER terminate that game/app without user permission and just terminate iOS services as 75% are not needed when gaming. As I said CRAPPY a memory management.
Apple needs to fix it by adding another gigabyte of RAM to all of their devices or a much easier fix is release iOS a point to that puts a swapfile on every device and let's see user choose 128 to 256 or 512 MB of RAM....there are many different flavors of android out there for various devices. Some don't have swap files but most do. Most have set swap files usually 256 MB. However some are user configurable swapfile sizes
My point is Apple can do a lot better, and it's not about lazy developers, it's about the fact that if I'm playing a game and a phone call comes in I lose all progress in my game and that should never happen. If I'm running just one app... that app should never be terminated unless that app tries to use more than 512MB ram...iOS 8 needs 512MB minimum. Let unneeded iOS services try to run and crash from out of memory errors I don't care .... but my game should never be terminated on me just because Ios wants load a bunch of services, when my game goes in the background , that I don't need at the moment
iOS developers do have a set of API calls and tools to preevent what I mentioned above. iOS does send a warning message to a game or app that it needs memory and it is about to terminate that app. An app then gets the opportunity to either shut itself down or dump the memory it's been using to a file on the storage device sort of like hibernating a Windows or OS X operating system, and when the game or app restarts it leaves off where it left off
The problem with the above system is that iOS often terminates an app to quickly and does not give it a chance to save the data like I mentioned above. If Ios always did give every app an advanced warning and if every iOS app was properly coded to save its memory state before being terminated so it could resume where it left off .....I would have no problem with iOS terminating anything whenever it wanted to. However I am not seeing this happen, iOS constantly terminates my apps and they do not resume where they left off. Of course this could be a huge fault at the developers not following proper Apple guidelines
However I am a small developer of iOS apps and I've tested this feature myself and 9 out of 10 Xs, iOS will terminate the app without even sending it a warning message... Just poof terminate.
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Fun fact, RIM was late to the "real" smartphone game because they said in 2011 that their awesome new OS they were making would NOT RUN with less than 2gb RAM.
Understand that the idea of a smartphone with 2gb RAM a couple of years ago was ludicrous, but when the tech finally caught up to their ambitions, here we are the new Q10 and Z10, floundering.
And Samsung's 3gb RAM still amounts to a laggy experience because Android is such a pig for memory.
Read some of the reviews of the Note 3 and you'll see what I mean, half of their gimmicky features are either slow to open, or don't really work at all. Innovation!
No. Android isn't a pig for memory, touchwiz is.
Granted, 1gb of ram probably was enough at one point. 2 years from now, we may be begging for 4gb of ram.
Maybe it's my particular use case but I have never had safari trouble or had a u issues with games or anything else. My Air. Has been a beast since day one. Guess I just got a good one.
We all know Apple's past on suppling enough ram in their devices. Their was a time when one could spend 2k and only get 2 gigs of ram in a iMac.
Of course I do, but that still does not change the fact that they blundered and put only one gigabyte on the iPhone six and 6+ basically rendering multitasking almost useless
Grant granted if everything works the way it was supposed to 1 GB would actually work properly. iOS would send a low memory warning to an app and that app within suspend itself and right it's memory contents to a file on the storage device so when the app start back up it would resume where it left off. Sometimes this is the fault of the developers who failed to do this. However,I was 8.1 seems to have a bug or I should say I was eight point X because it either fails to send this signal or it sends the signal and then immediately terminate the app and does not give it a chance to "hibernate quote. I develop iOS and android apps so I know and I have tested this. I have also submittedbug reports to Apple
However, even Apple doesn't follow the proper developer APIs, if they did when you would return to a Safari tab that tab would "in-hibernate" and resume where it left off.
And I'll say it again The Best Way, Apple can fix this and they can fix this by adding a patch for iOS 456 and seven and eight, and that is to add a page file equal 50% of the total ram in the system with a maximum page size of 512 MB because as we move on page files larger than that simply are not needed as the devices will have enough memory. And the 512 MB page file should be capped especially if Apple fails to upgrade to 3 GB or 4 GB in a timely manner. The page file systemWill help keep Apple afloat, but they seem to be dead set against using it. I do not know why as OS X has a page file, and iOS is just a scaled-down version of OS X
The argument used to be it would shorten the life of the storage device which is true, and it will but it's been proven the device will fail long before the storage will when using a page file
So, there's really no excuse Apple could give me for not putting in a page file. And you can no longer jailbreak a device and turn on the build in page file service in iOS. That's because Apple has an updated that service in years and if you turn it on your device will end up in a blue screen crash loop that you can only fix with the DFU restore
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Maybe it's my particular use case but I have never had safari trouble or had a u issues with games or anything else. My Air. Has been a beast since day one. Guess I just got a good one.
Unfortunately it has nothing to do with getting a good or bad iPad they are all identical however, what is different is the way you use your iPad and the apps you use. You probably use very low memory apps and therefore don't notice the problems that high memory use users encounter
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Unfortunately, this guy I am quoting above who got on somebody's case about iOS eight last year has now been proven wrong and it turns out the person he was bitching out was correct. Apple has a very distinct pattern and they really deviate from it and they are very very predictable. Every now and then they surprised me but that's becoming less and less so since Steve Jobs died