20% of iPhones in France Unlocked, and Other Stats

[Unspeaked]

There's no "technical" reason Burger King can't make a Big Mac. You think it would be better if the government forced McDonalds to let them make and sell it?

Really??

How can you justify this position? I'm assuming you can since it's an identical situation. I don't get it.

I think if you can defend a corporation for limiting consumer choice, I can defend it for providing it.

I seriously can't believe some of the arguments the people supporting the iPhone lock come up with to defend a $160 billion company.

Also, I'm not saying to throw copyrights and registered trademarks out the door here. I wouldn't allow Nokia to make the iPhone, I just think the phone itself and the service plan are two different animals and should be treated as such. It's so logical, I don't know how the US dropped the ball on this when mobiles first started to gain ground here. I don't go to BestBuy and pick up a corded phone and expect to be forced to use Qwest when I get home. Why should that be the case with mobiles?

And honestly, I think Burger King making a Big Mac is far less silly than me not being able to buy a phone, choose a mobile plan and put the two together.

 

[samab]

Furthermore it prevents growth and competition amongst carriers, because if the iPhone was released unlocked and it sold 30,000 in one weekend then every carrier in the country would be doing backflips trying to offers the best plans in an effort to get new customers.

You really want to tell me that your industry without government interference is in better shape than hours.

There was never that big of a competition in the european mobile service industry.

You want to see competition --- then look at the US mobile service industry. The smaller number 2 carrier (Verizon Wireless) said no the iphone --- because VZW thought they are competitive enough without the iphone. AT&T sold 270,000 iphones in 1 weekend. And what happened? VZW still beat AT&T in retail net adds in Q3.

Well, somehow with all the European government interference with anti-trust laws, consumer protection laws, and simlocking laws --- Europeans manage to pay more for the iphone hardware and more for the iphone service plans than Americans.

 

[Unspeaked]

I did not make the iphone, Apple & ATT did, in my opinion it's none of my or the government business to tell them what to do. I respect their hard work & innovation & do not want to screw with it..

What a load of bs this post is, please point me in the direction of some reports that show any of Apple's European carriers investing time and money into the development of the iPhone? It's an anti-competitive practice on the part of Apple, which limits the options of their customers so they can receive kickbacks.

As Otaviano pointed out, the iPhone is not an Apple/AT&T innovation, it's simply an Apple innovation.

That's why from country to country, they have deals with different carriers. Otherwise, they'd have a universal contract with one carrier (since even the European carriers have stakes in the US ones).

If you were correct and it was a joint effort, the exclusivity makes perfect sense. It's the fact that Apple sold out the iPhone to the highest bidder and now a product which clearly works with other networks (as the hackers have proven) is tied to one is what's troublesome.

 

[j763]

What is "progressive" about laws that limit freedom? Do you really want the US government telling you how to run your business?

Oh yes, those shackles of regulation must come off... let's abolish the FAA while we're at it. Why have any consumer protection laws?

 

[samab]

I seriously can't believe some of the arguments the people supporting the iPhone lock come up with to defend a $160 billion company.

Well, I can't believe some of the arguments the people supporting Nokia or Google on their so-called openness when they are richer than God.

 

[Unspeaked]

Well, somehow with all the European government interference with anti-trust laws, consumer protection laws, and simlocking laws --- Europeans manage to pay more for the iphone hardware and more for the iphone service plans than Americans.

Don't cloud the numbers with the iPhone.

Europeans pay far less than Americans do for wireless service; the iPhone is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Small White Car]

Also, I'm not saying to throw copyrights and registered trademarks out the door here. I wouldn't allow Nokia to make the iPhone, I just think the phone itself and the service plan are two different animals and should be treated as such. It's so logical, I don't know how the US dropped the ball on this when mobiles first started to gain ground here. I don't go to BestBuy and pick up a corded phone and expect to be forced to use Qwest when I get home. Why should that be the case with mobiles?

All of this would make perfect sense if there were NO unlocked phones in the U.S. If every single one was tied to a carrier, this would be a problem.

But that's not true. There ARE unlocked phones available. People have choices.

What you're saying is that EVERY phone should be unlocked. I say, as long as there are options for both kinds, what's the problem? It's only a problem when consumers can't choose between locked and unlocked phones. And they can do that.

Ok, you're going to say "but the iPhone is unique!" That's true, but I only find that argument relevant when we're talking about necessities like housing or healthcare. THEN we can talk about what the government should be doing. But an iPhone is not a necessity. A CELL PHONE is a necessity, yes, but an iPhone is not.

The government SHOULD interfere to make sure people can get the things they need. But the "need" here is simply 'A Cell Phone.' And people do have choices in that field. 'An iPhone' is NOT a necessary thing. The government should only get involved once it is.

 

[scpt]

What is "progressive" about laws that limit freedom? Do you really want the US government telling you how to run your business?

I am surprised there are people who care more about 'big corporates' loosing their 'flexibilty' in doing business....rather than caring about 'consumers' loosing their flexibility in choosing a technology.

If that is the case, the Govt. shouldn't care about all this coporate monopoly issues either. If a company can use its business skills and monopolize in its area...why should the Govt. interfere???? Remember all the fuss created when Microsoft bundled the IE for free with it OS ? People called it Microsoft trying to exploit its monopoly in the OS market to boost up the usage of IE.

 

[Beefeater]

What a load of bs this post is, please point me in the direction of some reports that show any of Apple's European carriers investing time and money into the development of the iPhone? It's an anti-competitive practice on the part of Apple, which limits the options of their customers so they can receive kickbacks.

Furthermore it prevents growth and competition amongst carriers, because if the iPhone was released unlocked and it sold 30,000 in one weekend then every carrier in the country would be doing backflips trying to offers the best plans in an effort to get new customers. This much has already been displayed in the short period when unlocked phones where available in Germany. The iPhone was unlocked in Germany for no more than two weeks and you had one carrier offering €600 rebates. Imagine if it was sold unlocked from the beginning at a reasonable price, like €600? Carriers would be offering true unlimited data plans, plans with a decent amount of minutes, and so fourth. Instead we have these joke plans, that are only acceptable because you don't have a choice.

The only people benefiting from this are Apple and their shareholders, and I have yet to see one decent argument to prove otherwise in all these threads. It's just the same old rhetoric with nothing to back it up, talk about innovation and competition.

I lived in the United States for a long time, and when I was there you could not send SMS messages from a cell phone to a cell phone on a competing carrier. Want to guess when this was? It was in 2001. You really want to tell me that your industry without government interference is in better shape than hours. Even today in 2007, my mother had to make a huge fuss to be able to send and receive text messages with phones in Europe.

Show me where European carriers are not investing time and money to make their network compatible (visual voice mail) with the iphone. How does Apple locking the iphone benefit them anyway? Seems to me locking the iphone out from other carriers benefits the carrier that is able to sell the phone not Apple.
Our system is not perfect but I like it better, if I wanted more socialism I would move to Europe.

 

[Small White Car]

I am surprised there are people who care more about 'big corporates' loosing their 'flexibilty' in doing business....rather than caring about 'consumers' loosing their flexibility in choosing a technology.

Where do you get money from. A tree?

Because you sure act like there are "buyers" and "sellers" out there and you're either one or the other. Maybe that's your life, but I bet 99% of the people in here both spend AND make money.

In other words, most people here belong to both groups, so why are you acting like any actions here are going to affect only people on one "side?" Nearly everyone's involved on both sides you know!

 

[Unspeaked]

All of this would make perfect sense if there were NO unlocked phones in the U.S. If every single one was tied to a carrier, this would be a problem.

But that's not true. There ARE unlocked phones available. People have choices.

What you're saying is that EVERY phone should be unlocked. I say, as long as there are options for both kinds, what's the problem? It's only a problem when consumers can't choose between locked and unlocked phones. And they can do that.

Ok, you're going to say "but the iPhone is unique!" That's true, but I only find that argument relevant when we're talking about necessities like housing or healthcare. THEN we can talk about what the government should be doing. But an iPhone is not a necessity. A CELL PHONE is a necessity, yes, but an iPhone is not.

The government SHOULD interfere to make sure people can get the things they need. But the "need" here is simply 'A Cell Phone.' And people do have choices in that field. 'An iPhone' is NOT a necessary thing. The government should only get involved once it is.

This is a good point, and one that I've considered.

My argument is not that the iPhone is unique but rather that I agree with what you're implying - that all phones should be unlocked.

That being said, I was under the impression that the iPhone is the only mobile that doesn't have an option of being purchased unlocked, or which a carrier won't give an unlock code for an existing customer once they've reached a certain term in their contract (with the exception of CDMA vs GSM, of course, where many CDMA phones cannot be unlocked since they don't use SIM Cards). Am I wrong here? Are there other phones whose unlock codes have never been released - even to the carriers - by the manufacturer?

 

[shikimo]

Such better, more progressive laws...

Wish we would change our laws here in the US to something more like that.

Careful what you wish for. While in some ways consumers really are better off here, in other ways we just get the shaft, all in the name of 'fairness.' In my opinion, it's really more a case of having laws brought about by a different mindset than it is a case of being better or more progressive...

What is "progressive" about laws that limit freedom? Do you really want the US government telling you how to run your business?

...however, the US government tells lots and lots of Americans how to run their businesses. It's a different style of control, but the idea of the US market as a haven of free enterprise is a joke. To my knowledge, the closest thing to a free market these days is probably found in the Baltic states...if I had a lot of venture capital I'd be learning Estonian .

It's laws like this keep people from innovating & you may not have things like the iphone with laws like the one you want, which might explain why both company's that partnered to bring us the iphone are American...NOT French...where they have such great laws & a great economy.

Now that right thar is just good 'ol fashuned redneck thinkin': as if great products have never been invented outside the US. As if the US is even the world leader in consumer product innovation...as if, to consider just one relevant example, cell phone technology wasn't pioneered in Japan and Europe (Scandinavia in particular). Japan has one of the most protected economies in the world, and it's not stopping them from crushing the US in tech development. I go there regularly and HOLY SCHNIKIES they have cool toys! Always 2-3 years before I see them in the US. Even here in the alleged socialist paradise of France there are things invented here that you can't yet buy in the US...but that does, of course, go the other way too, depending on the type of product. I'm not saying anyone is better than anyone else; I'm just pointing out that innovative products are just as often determined by cultural priorities and weird geo-political goings-on as by (alleged) economic conditions.

Where can I buy the unlocked french iPhone? I speak fluent french but I didn't find anything about the unlocked version on Orange's websites. I understand they try to hide the choice so they sell more of the contract phones, but still...

This is a weird thing, I agree; I'm not in the market, but I've been to Orange stores just to see what's up with the iPhone and the option to buy one totally unlocked isn't marked anywhere, and in my experience most French consumers aren't the type to go asking for things not on display. Every single non-affiliated portable-selling store in Lyon, however, has giant signs all over the place advertising unlocked iPhones for suspiciously low prices. Don't know what that's all about.

 

[samab]

Europeans pay far less than Americans do for wireless service; the iPhone is the exception, not the rule.

UK, Germany and France (the three largest European countries with the highest GDP per capita) have higher price per voice minute than Americans.

Americans talk about 800 minutes a month. Europeans talk about 150 minutes a month.

 

[Small White Car]

Are there other phones whose unlock codes have never been released - even to the carriers - by the manufacturer?

I'm not enough of a cell-junkie to know.

I know there have been phones that were locked to particular carriers for many months after coming out. Beyond that, I don't know. I use a 3 year old Nokia that makes phone calls and has a bowling game. That's the last time I paid much attention to phones, honestly.

 

[ChrisA]

What is "progressive" about laws that limit freedom? Do you really want the US government telling you how to run your business?

The air waves are a shared public "place" like the ocean or the sky. The rules govern how the that public place is to be shared. So yes I do want rules that prevent some business grabbing a part of some public place for itself.

What about laws that take away my freedom to do things like break into your house and take all your stuff? All laws restrict some one's actions.

 

[shikimo]

UK, Germany and France (the three largest European countries with the highest GDP per capita) have higher price per voice minute than Americans.

Americans talk about 800 minutes a month. Europeans talk about 150 minutes a month.

But that comparison is skewed, because most Europeans don't pay a cent for incoming calls, and those calls aren't factored into the numbers for the holder of the phone receiving the call. I use one of my phones to talk to clients in Asia--some months 1000s of minutes--but they call me so they don't count. In the US, unless it's changed, incoming minutes still come off the bloc of total free minutes, correct?

 

[samab]

I am surprised there are people who care more about 'big corporates' loosing their 'flexibilty' in doing business....rather than caring about 'consumers' loosing their flexibility in choosing a technology.

If that is the case, the Govt. shouldn't care about all this coporate monopoly issues either. If a company can use its business skills and monopolize in its area...why should the Govt. interfere???? Remember all the fuss created when Microsoft bundled the IE for free with it OS ? People called it Microsoft trying to exploit its monopoly in the OS market to boost up the usage of IE.

The problem is that the European approach is totally useless --- like the so-called punishing Microsoft by forcing them to sell a version of windows xp without the media player.

Look at the european launch of the iphone --- all the layers and layers of government interference and they ended up with a more expensive phone and more expensive phone plans.

 

[samab]

But that comparison is skewed, because most Europeans don't pay a cent for incoming calls, and those calls aren't factored into the numbers for the holder of the phone receiving the call. I use one of my phones to talk to clients in Asia--some months 1000s of minutes--but they call me so they don't count. In the US, unless it's changed, incoming minutes still come off the bloc of total free minutes, correct?

Yes, you are correct that we pay for incoming calls. But even by cutting half the US figures (to account for the incoming issue) --- Americans still manage to talk 2.5 times the amount of minutes than Europeans.

Also most Americans has unlimited M2M and unlimited nights and weekends.

 

[csdb]

Free hacks available ????

"It's unclear how many of those paid for the official unlock, or opted for one of the many free hacks available."

Sorry to contradict you, but there are no free hack available AT THIS TIME for the French iPhone sold by Orange.
Version 1.1.2 with BL 4.6 (the one sold in France) is not yet broken to allow you to use any SIM card with it !

May be in the next few weeks !!!!

 

[Beefeater]

Now that right thar is just good 'ol fashuned redneck thinkin': as if great products have never been invented outside the US. As if the US is even the world leader in consumer product innovation...as if, to consider just one relevant example, cell phone technology wasn't pioneered in Japan and Europe (Scandinavia in particular). Japan has one of the most protected economies in the world, and it's not stopping them from crushing the US in tech development. I go there regularly and HOLY SCHNIKIES they have cool toys! Always 2-3 years before I see them in the US. Even here in the alleged socialist paradise of France there are things invented here that you can't yet buy in the US...but that does, of course, go the other way too, depending on the type of product. I'm not saying anyone is better than anyone else; I'm just pointing out that innovative products are just as often determined by cultural priorities and weird geo-political goings-on as by (alleged) economic conditions.

"Redneck thinking" that's funny... Educate me? How is Japan crushing the US in tech development?

I think what it boils down to is YOU are not Apple YOU have no say so in the matter, if you don't like it don't buy the iphone, accept it & quit crying about it. I can't get the iphone because I'm sign a contract with T-Mobile & T-Mobile did not work out a deal with Apple in the U.S & I'm fine with it. Not crying here....Also I don't depend on the government to get the things I want I get them myself....

 

[MrCrowbar]

This is a weird thing, I agree; I'm not in the market, but I've been to Orange stores just to see what's up with the iPhone and the option to buy one totally unlocked isn't marked anywhere, and in my experience most French consumers aren't the type to go asking for things not on display. Every single non-affiliated portable-selling store in Lyon, however, has giant signs all over the place advertising unlocked iPhones for suspiciously low prices. Don't know what that's all about.

Hmm... my guess is the average costumer doesn't know what "unlocked" means. They just see "399 €", "iPhone", "forfait" (i.w.contract)

Or the french translation of "unlocked" is confusing. You wouldn't buy an "unlocked" car that has no locks, would you?

 

[Ben C]

Where can I buy the unlocked french iPhone? I speak fluent french but I didn't find anything about the unlocked version on Orange's websites. I understand they try to hide the choice so they sell more of the contract phones, but still...

Yes, I found this interesting. Has anyone found anywhere to buy it online?

 

[samab]

That being said, I was under the impression that the iPhone is the only mobile that doesn't have an option of being purchased unlocked, or which a carrier won't give an unlock code for an existing customer once they've reached a certain term in their contract (with the exception of CDMA vs GSM, of course, where many CDMA phones cannot be unlocked since they don't use SIM Cards). Am I wrong here? Are there other phones whose unlock codes have never been released - even to the carriers - by the manufacturer?

Somehow --- early on --- and without any American laws, AT&T managed to promise that they will provide unlocking codes for the iphones once your iphone contract is over.

Somehow --- with all kinds of simlocking laws, O2 is saying that they will never provide the unlocking codes for the iphone, even when your iphone contract is over. Samething with T-Mobile Germany. Only after they overturned the Vodafone injunction did T-Mobile Germany volunteer to provide unlocking codes to the iphone once you finish your iphone contract.

 

[Unspeaked]

Yes, you are correct that we pay for incoming calls. But even by cutting half the US figures (to account for the incoming issue) --- Americans still manage to talk 2.5 times the amount of minutes than Europeans.

Also most Americans has unlimited M2M and unlimited nights and weekends.

Also, I'd love to see how these rates change for text and data.

Most Americans use these features (especially text) much less than those in other parts of the world.

 

[sirdir]

AFAIK there's no 'illegal hack' available for the phones sold in France yet.