20% of iPhones in France Unlocked, and Other Stats

[samab]

Well that's how it is. They are different countries. The EU is not one country. You pay international rates if you leave the country. The circumstances are clearly different and comparing the two is therefore irrelevant.

Further from what I've seen AT&T volunteered nothing without proof. A generalised statement not specifying the iPhone is not proof. And again, even offering to unlock something when it's likely to be out of date is not a huge favour.

So all the talk about Europe being a single market is just crap.

Both AT&T (iphone being the exception) and T-Mobile USA have always provided unlocking codes for free after 90 days of purchase. It was done without any simlocking laws in the US. AT&T was very specific about their public statements on the iphone unlocking at the end of contract.

 

[samab]

So what's this argument about really? You can get an unlocked iPhone in France and pay more, which again makes since due to the geography of Europe and you can do it NOW (and pay more, but again if you travel often or work in another country it's worth it). So what is the issue?

The issue is that the French laws are useless. Orange could have charged 2000 euro for the unlocked iphone. They didn't, but they could have.

Only 1500 iphones were sold in France without any contract --- 5% out of 30000 iphones sold.

The issue becomes --- geeks on tech forums are the 5%, while the other 95% suffered with a more expensive simlocked iphone and a more expensive iphone contract plan.

 

[nja247]

So all the talk about Europe being a single market is just crap.

Both AT&T (iphone being the exception) and T-Mobile USA have always provided unlocking codes for free after 90 days of purchase. It was done without any simlocking laws in the US. AT&T was very specific about their public statements on the iphone unlocking at the end of contract.

No one ever said that the mobile phone market is within that scope (yet). Do you really believe the EU is a federal government that controls the water, gas, electric, phones, etc in every single member state? Wikipedia would be a good start if so.

I don't care what AT&T and T-Mobile does for other phones, that is not the argument. The iPhone is unique in its lock method since most other phones can be unlocked without issue by entering in a code via the dial pad. I can walk down the road and every 3 metres find someone to unlock a phone (except an iPhone). Also most phones are sold UNLOCKED here anyhow, thus there's no reason to ask your carrier for it. I haven't seen any affirmative statement stating AT&T will do this for the iPhone, nor have you provided one. Further it may not be possible as evidenced with the fact of the new boot loader found on phones actually capable of being unlocked via iTunes by Apple, something I mentioned twice already.

Again what's the argument?

 

[Unspeaked]

So all the talk about Europe being a single market is just crap.

Nothing will ever be perfectly cohesive.

Even in the US, there are different tax rates, laws and local regulation from state to state; sometimes county to county.

If you think occasional roaming charges negate the idea of a single market, you're not looking at the larger picture.

Both AT&T (iphone being the exception) and T-Mobile USA have always provided unlocking codes for free after 90 days of purchase. It was done without any simlocking laws in the US. AT&T was very specific about their public statements on the iphone unlocking at the end of contract.

Honestly, your reference to the comment earlier in this thread and the link that you provided a short while later which was simply a small quote in a much larger article about unlocking in general is the first I'd ever heard about AT&T saying they'd unlock the iPhone.

And the very fact that AT&T disregarded their own 90 day policy with the iPhone shows that their word probably isn't the greatest.

 

[Beefeater]

Yes it does. However, the example was meant to be *generic*. If it wasn't for government regulation, you'd be getting a lot more price controlling from businesses to keep prices higher and thus screw over consumers.

This is one example of how government 'interference' is good.





I'm glad you like being screwed over. I find it amusing how people can make excuses to justify businesses screwing over its consumers. There's a difference between a healthy profit and excessive profits.

I think businesses that screw people over don't survive in the end & excessive profits opens the door for other company's to offer something in its place.

So if Apple is truly wrong they will pay the price in the long run.

 

[samab]

I don't care what AT&T and T-Mobile does for other phones, that is not the argument. The iPhone is unique in its lock method since most other phones can be unlocked without issue by entering in a code via the dial pad. I can walk down the road and every 3 metres find someone to unlock a phone (except an iPhone). Also most phones are sold UNLOCKED here anyhow, thus there's no reason to ask your carrier for it. I haven't seen any affirmative statement stating AT&T will do this for the iPhone, nor have you provided one. Further it may not be possible as evidenced with the fact of the new boot loader found on phones actually capable of being unlocked via iTunes by Apple, something I mentioned twice already.

There is no reason to doubt AT&T since they have always provide unlocking codes for free --- without any government requirements.

As with the boot loader, if they can't do it by itunes --- they can do it manually by sending the iphone back to AT&T.

 

[nja247]

The issue is that the French laws are useless. Orange could have charged 2000 euro for the unlocked iphone. They didn't, but they could have.

Only 1500 iphones were sold in France without any contract --- 5% out of 30000 iphones sold.

The issue becomes --- geeks on tech forums are the 5%, while the other 95% suffered with a more expensive simlocked iphone and a more expensive iphone contract plan.

Can you read the title of this thread? It says 20%. Regardless of the number how is the law useless, because you say so? Did you forget everything I said about geography and international rates? Further everything is more expensive. The cost of living is higher. If we can deal with it you should be able to as well since you don't live here. Just end this silly thread already, it's obvious someone doesn't like things across the ocean, so do us a favour and stay put!

 

[nja247]

There is no reason to doubt AT&T since they have always provide unlocking codes for free --- without any government requirements.

As with the boot loader, if they can't do it by itunes --- they can do it manually by sending the iphone back to AT&T.

Again, the iPhone is completely different when it comes to unlocking. They (AT&T) usually unlock after 90 days, so what is stopping them? Likely the fact that they aren't going to do it. Until I see an authoritative statement from AT&T promising to give an unlock at the end of the contract (once the third or fourth model of the iPhone has already launched anyhow) then what you're saying is all based on assumptions which don't cut it with me. Further who cares about the government in this instance? Again refer to the fact about European geography and why an unlock law makes more sense compared to the vast USA. Lastly who cares if unlock codes are usually free from AT&T? You don't need unlock codes when phones usually come unlocked as in Europe. All these points made, however no relevance at all.

I'm out until we meet again in another thread. If you want to continue making assumptions and irrelevant points then more power to you. However I do hope to discover one day what a European has done to piss you off so badly, lol.

 

[samab]

Again, the iPhone is completely different when it comes to unlocking. They usually do it after 90 days, so what is stopping them? Likely the fact that they aren't going to do it. Until I see an authoritative statement from AT&T promising to give an unlock at the end of the contract (once the third or fourth model of the iPhone has already launched anyhow) then what you're saying is all based on assumptions which don't cut it with me. Further who cares about the government in this instance? Again refer to the fact about European geography and why an unlock law makes more sense compared to the vast USA.

I'm out until we meet again in another thread. If you want to continue making assumptions and irrelevant points then more power to you. However I do hope to discover one day what a European has done to piss you off so badly, lol.

AT&T is under no legal obligations to unlock your phone --- but they do it anyway. They are under no legal obligations to promise you an unlocking code for the iphone at the end of the contract --- but they do it anyway. A senior VP from AT&T talking about it in a national newspaper is authoritative enough. This isn't some lowly ranked 25 year old PR person talking about it in a web interview with a mobile phone website.

I think it's the other way around, what has AT&T done to piss you off. They made a promise voluntarily. Somehow you think that there is some hidden agenda to screw you over.

You can go and ask whether T-Mobile Germany is going to put it in writing about their promise to provide the unlocking codes at the end of the contract.

 

[samab]

Can you read the title of this thread? It says 20%. Regardless of the number how is the law useless, because you say so? Did you forget everything I said about geography and international rates? Further everything is more expensive. The cost of living is higher. If we can deal with it you should be able to as well since you don't live here. Just end this silly thread already, it's obvious someone doesn't like things across the ocean, so do us a favour and stay put!

Read the original news articles in French --- they don't say 20%.

What they said was 80% signed up with a "iphone specific" plan.

http://www.20minutes.fr/article/198973/High-Tech-30-000-iPhone-vendus-en-cinq-jours.php

Only 1500 iphones were sold without any contract in France --- 5% out of 30000 iphones sold.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/05/AR2007120500914.html

In France, there is a third option --- buy the iphone for 549 euro and keep your ordinary "non iphone specific" Orange plan. This is the missing 15%.

 

[megfilmworks]

Limit freedom for who, greedy corporations or customers?

You mean
"greedy corporations or greedy customers?"

I don't really care. But I do care about big brother butting in to my private business.

 

[shikimo]

"Redneck thinking" that's funny... Educate me? How is Japan crushing the US in tech development?

Better question is how aren't they? Robotics, home appliances, transport technology (although the tech used in the Shinkansen is mostly French ), waste removal and disposal, package delivery and tracking, automobiles and of course cell phones and video games, just for starters. And don't forget that they have the coolest toilets in the whole world...I spend a couple months of each year in Japan and the two things that blow me away the most are 1) how FAST everything changes, and 2) how the same thing that is new there will be new within a period or months or years in the US and Europe.

I'm not at all one of those westerners who thinks Japan is the coolest place on earth, not at all: they've got their own set of serious troubles. But you have to admit they've got the jump on everyone else when it comes to tech innovations.

I think what it boils down to is YOU are not Apple YOU have no say so in the matter, if you don't like it don't buy the iphone, accept it & quit crying about it. I can't get the iphone because I'm sign a contract with T-Mobile & T-Mobile did not work out a deal with Apple in the U.S & I'm fine with it. Not crying here....Also I don't depend on the government to get the things I want I get them myself....

Whoa, down boy! Why the bold? Did I insult your mother??

Yes, you are correct that I am not Apple...and I am very proud of you for not depending on your government for getting things you want...but since all of this has nothing to do with my post I think I will just pretend it didn't happen and move on.

 

[shikimo]

Hmm... my guess is the average costumer doesn't know what "unlocked" means. They just see "399 €", "iPhone", "forfait" (i.w.contract)

Or the french translation of "unlocked" is confusing. You wouldn't buy an "unlocked" car that has no locks, would you?

Yeah...I wonder about this word 'debloquer' and its use in cellphone jargon sometimes. The only other place I've heard it is when the cops come in and forcibly remove hippies from French universities.

With respect to getting a fair comparison between the 2 sides of the Atlantic --- this is as close as you can get for a fair comparison.

I think this is a hopeless venture from the start. As someone who has lived full-time in both the US and French economies for many years, I think it's absolutely impossible to compare hard numbers; the way that people make, spend and think about money are just too different. In the same sense, the way people think about communication is also different, which has a lot to do with why phone/internet/tv services work so differently in the two countries.

No I would not like government intervention for lower prices in the way Canada does it, I like our way better, that's not to say we can't do better...

I think price controls on drugs takes away some incentive for the drug company's to create more drugs. If there is not enough profit in it for them they won't do it.

C'mon, no one defends the US healthcare system anymore. It stinks, in every way. Even hard core conservatives acknowledge it's one of America's biggest flaws. In fact, I think it's the only issue upon which I'm ready to say, straight-up and without context, that it works much better in France than in America...and it's far from perfect here.

Nor is it that bad here. So who ****ing cares either way? The term 'European system' is the issue here however, since this is France we're speaking of and not Europe as a whole. Also, every carrier in the world offers free handsets or discounts with contracts, so again, who ****ing cares?

Amen. I hate it when Americans talk about the 'European system' or 'European socialism,' as if those terms mean anything at all. Europe is big and complicated and much more diverse than people seem to think; even within the Schengen states, or the slightly larger Eurozone, laws and customs differ widely.

For those interested, here's the "iPhone purchase exeperience" in France :

My mother wanted to buy an iPhone, and she didn't want to buy it with a contract, but SIM-Free (€ 649 btw!)

The sales rep at Orange really began being rude and stuff, since she wasnt going for the € 49/ month contract. The guy was like real rude, wouldnt explain her how to insert the SIM card, and he even checked his computer where the guys received a internal memo entitled "what to do when the customer does not choose a contract?" The answers where more or less "try to convince the customers, by any means necessary"

What the Hell ?

I was so pissed when she told me that, I mean, that's so bloody rude, insulting and disrespectful towards a lady !

Hope it's not like this for you guys over there (oh no, you people have to get the contract as well).

That's horrible...but kinda typical for French customer service, no?? Although if she's in Savoie like you that's a little surprising...people up there are always really nice to me.

They are poorly paid frontline workers who probably work for a commission fee.

I don't know the specifics, but probably not: my guess is a person in a job like that makes 8.47 per hour, French minimum wage based on 35 hours/wk. with a MINIMUM of 5 weeks paid annual vacation, and has no good excuse to be mean like that...but as I mentioned above, it's pretty common.

 

[Manic Mouse]

In France, there is a third option --- buy the iphone for 549 euro and keep your ordinary "non iphone specific" Orange plan. This is the missing 15%.

I wish this was an option in the UK.

 

[boz0]

The issue is that the French laws are useless. Orange could have charged 2000 euro for the unlocked iphone. They didn't, but they could have.

You fail to see the bigger picture.

France didn't create a specific law to make sure everyone could get an iPhone. That law was created to ensure no carrier could lock in a customer with an abusive contract.

And please, don't give me that crap about "if the contract is such a complete rip-off, don't buy it" (and I'm still not speaking about the iPhone here, but those overly common abusive contracts). That may be true for you, me, or even any of the tech-inclined geeks on this forum, but many people will fall for a well-pitched sale.

That law addresses the real point reasonably well. The fact that it doesn't make the unlocked iPhone cheaper is completely irrelevant.

 

[shikimo]

You fail to see the bigger picture.

France didn't create a specific law to make sure everyone could get an iPhone. That law was created to ensure no carrier could lock in a customer with an abusive contract.

And please, don't give me that crap about "if the contract is such a complete rip-off, don't buy it" (and I'm still not speaking about the iPhone here, but those overly common abusive contracts). That may be true for you, me, or even any of the tech-inclined geeks on this forum, but many people will fall for a well-pitched sale.

That law addresses the real point reasonably well. The fact that it doesn't make the unlocked iPhone cheaper is completely irrelevant.

I'm glad you pointed this out, as it highlights the sort of mentality difference I keep yapping about. For better or for worse--and I'm seriously not taking a side here--the French government does things designed to protect its, um, lesser-informed citizens from getting worked over by big companies that belie a completely different government/citizen relationship than we have in the US (French laws about tenant rights are the biggest example of this of which I am aware). Sometimes it backfires and sometimes it works...but this is no place for an analysis of protectionism in American and French domestic policy.

It is this fundamental view of the role of government that often lies behind French policy decisions that seem obstructive to Americans, because we grew up with the idea that the law of the retail land is, more often than not, caveat emptor.

 

[samab]

France didn't create a specific law to make sure everyone could get an iPhone. That law was created to ensure no carrier could lock in a customer with an abusive contract.

But the law itself doesn't achieve that at all. A french carrier can still either lock in their customers with an abusive contract (the french iphone tariff is the worst among UK, France and Germany) or as the iphone illustrates, the carrier can charge an abusive simfree handset price.

So it's a lose-lose situation. The 95% of the people who bought the iphone gets worst off with their contracts and the 5% who paid for the unlocked iphone could have paid anything (like 2000 euro).

 

[samab]

I wish this was an option in the UK.

There is always going to be a downside to have an extra option --- the french iphone contract is more expensive than the uk iphone contract and the french iphone contract is 24 months vs. uk iphone contract of 18 months.

 

[boz0]

But the law itself doesn't achieve that at all. A french carrier can still either lock in their customers with an abusive contract (the french iphone tariff is the worst among UK, France and Germany) or as the iphone illustrates, the carrier can charge an abusive simfree handset price.

I think it does its job quite well, it just wasn't tailored to deal with an iPhone-like situation.

Large international companies have been able to skirt regulations for quite some time, and Apple's just added its name to the long (and still growing) list of companies that will do so if they can get away with it. In my book, that's a good reason for governments to step in and protect their citizens.

I'm not saying Apple is seriously screwing over their customers, mind you. But in the larger picture, there's a red line somewhere between doing legitimate business and screwing over your customers, and I don't think companies should have a free rein.

 

[samab]

I think it does its job quite well, it just wasn't tailored to deal with an iPhone-like situation.

Large international companies have been able to skirt regulations for quite some time, and Apple's just added its name to the long (and still growing) list of companies that will do so if they can get away with it. In my book, that's a good reason for governments to step in and protect their citizens.

I'm not saying Apple is seriously screwing over their customers, mind you. But in the larger picture, there's a red line somewhere between doing legitimate business and screwing over your customers, and I don't think companies should have a free rein.

I disagree. Those European laws haven't done a single thing at all.

Europeans are getting so-called cheap phones because you got carriers facing lax public accounting laws which permit them to chase "fake" subscribers --- it's just churn. Also Europeans are getting cheap phones because VAT fraud greases the whole handset retail industry. The cheapness of the cell phone handsets have nothing to do with these European simlocking laws in question.

In particular, to have all these French simlocking laws but only allows 3 national carriers --- defeats the whole point for consumer rights and lower prices. That's penny wise and dollar stupid.

 

[boz0]

Europeans are getting so-called cheap phones because you got carriers facing lax public accounting laws which permit them to chase "fake" subscribers --- it's just churn. Also Europeans are getting cheap phones because VAT fraud greases the whole handset retail industry. The cheapness of the cell phone handsets have nothing to do with these European simlocking laws in question.

Do you have solid information on that? Pointers to news articles, court rulings or somesuch? What fake subscribers are you talking about?

In particular, to have all these French simlocking laws but only allows 3 national carriers --- defeats the whole point for consumer rights and lower prices. That's penny wise and dollar stupid.

There's only 3 carriers operating physical networks, but over a dozen MVNOs.

 

[Asar]

i really dont mind att like i thought i would. i'm pretty happy coming from nextel lol. but i guess an unlock in the US would be for the better

 

[samab]

Do you have solid information on that? Pointers to news articles, court rulings or somesuch? What fake subscribers are you talking about?

There's only 3 carriers operating physical networks, but over a dozen MVNOs.

When we have carriers sending out executives to say that they want "real" subscribers --- you know that there is a problem.

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/news.aspx?id=26638

In other countries, there are 4-5 real carriers and dozens of MVNO's.

 

[boz0]

When we have carriers sending out executives to say that they want "real" subscribers --- you know that there is a problem.

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/news.aspx?id=26638

In other countries, there are 4-5 real carriers and dozens of MVNO's.

That article is referring to Orange UK. How does that relate to the French market?

Also, even admitting for a moment that 4 is sooo much better than 3, in countries that have those 4 or 5 real carriers, how many of these cover all of the country? From what I gather, many US cities don't have that great a choice between carriers, and it gets worse for people who travel a lot (kinda like what we get in Europe when crossing borders).

The French market, like most, has some weaknesses and some strong points. I'm not saying it's much better than what you get in the US, but I doubt it is, as you keep claiming, much worse.

 

[shikimo]

Read the original news articles in French --- they don't say 20%.

What they said was 80% signed up with a "iphone specific" plan.

http://www.20minutes.fr/article/198973/High-Tech-30-000-iPhone-vendus-en-cinq-jours.php

It ought to be pointed out that '20 Minutes,' the free, advertiser-owned evening paper/website in/on which this story appeared, isn't too reliable and often cites weird numbers without explanation. Here, all we have is a note at the bottom that suggests some of the info came from AFP.

In any case, your observation about the falseness of 100-80=20 in this case is well-noted.

But the law itself doesn't achieve that at all. A french carrier can still either lock in their customers with an abusive contract (the french iphone tariff is the worst among UK, France and Germany) or as the iphone illustrates, the carrier can charge an abusive simfree handset price.

I'm not saying you're wrong--I don't really know--but it is worth pointing out that, in some cases, French stuff tends to be more expensive because doing business here tends to be expensive; I know from personal experience how hard it can be. French labor laws are strong, unions function in a different way from American unions and are unbelievably powerful, and it is very, very difficult to run a business at a profit...and if you do pull it off and do too well you get killed by taxes. 35 hour workweeks, 5 weeks minimum paid annual vacation and generous unemployment benefits are great, but we pay the price in many ways, and one of them is expensive goods and services, all in a market where salary growth has been virtually zero for years. Do companies hide behind this to inflate prices? Damn straight they do...but it takes a lot of research to figure out who's doing it and who's just trying to make an honest living. And then, of course, the government tries to protect the markets with price-fixing laws to stop companies from gouging in the name of high business costs...and it gets really damn complicated.

I disagree. Those European laws haven't done a single thing at all.

Europeans are getting so-called cheap phones because you got carriers facing lax public accounting laws which permit them to chase "fake" subscribers --- it's just churn. Also Europeans are getting cheap phones because VAT fraud greases the whole handset retail industry. The cheapness of the cell phone handsets have nothing to do with these European simlocking laws in question.

In particular, to have all these French simlocking laws but only allows 3 national carriers --- defeats the whole point for consumer rights and lower prices. That's penny wise and dollar stupid.

I want some links here too...again, I don't know any better, but you can't say all that and then give a link to an article that doesn't say one word about the French market .

Regarding the three 'national carriers': it ain't that simple. If you can figure out the goings-on vis-a-vis portable phones of the "Autorité de régulation des communications électroniques et des postes," please explain it to me because I don't get it. What I get so far: The physical aspect of the network, which is (I think) entirely owned by the state, are shared by all three big carriers (including the costs of maintenance) and create a network (which covers virtually all of France), which is then leased to about 30 other companies who have the legal right to buy access to it. This number grows regularly, as even grocery-store chains are in the game now. To further cloud the picture, the company that we're all talking about, Orange, is officially listed as a 'société anonyme,' which is a type of private company...but it was 'purchased' by France Telecom, a public company currently in the throes of some strange half-ass type of privatization, in 2000. I don't know what this means. In the end, I have no idea what the France Telecom portion of my taxes pays for. And then there was the whole deal with British Telecom...argh.

As confusing as this all is, I haven't seen anything suggesting that the French government has actually prevented anyone from entering the market at any level. It is very possible that the failure of Bouygues to compete with SFR and Orange in terms of market share, despite 11 years and counting of major efforts, has scared away other would-be multi-billion dollar investors...but that's just a guess.