20% of iPhones in France Unlocked, and Other Stats

[samab]

Most Americans use these features (especially text) much less than those in other parts of the world.

While there are some legitimate use for SMS --- like avoiding someone's call, or texting people while in class --- they represent a small percentage of the daily SMS usage.

Europeans use SMS because it's cheaper than voice calls. Americans don't use SMS because they can afford a zillion minutes.

 

[Unspeaked]

Somehow --- early on --- and without any American laws, AT&T managed to promise that they will provide unlocking codes for the iphones once your iphone contract is over.

So you're saying you only needed to be forced to use the network the Apple/AT&T cartel dictate for two years and after they've gotten their $1,500 in contract fees from you, you're free to unlock your now out of date phone to use on the provider you would have preferred in the first place?

It's win-win!

 

[Unspeaked]

While there are some legitimate use for SMS --- like avoiding someone's call, or texting people while in class --- they represent a small percentage of the daily SMS usage.

Europeans use SMS because it's cheaper than voice calls. Americans don't use SMS because they can afford a zillion minutes.

Not true when incoming calls are free, as has been mentioned.

Americans don't use SMS because they're always 2-3 years behind in mobile habits and technology.

Look at who uses SMS in the States and you'll see nearly all the usage comes from teenagers.

As those teenagers grow up, SMS use will slowly reach European levels.

 

[nxent]

questions,,
1)if i had one of these unlocked french phones, could i bring it to the states and use it on the tmobile network?
2)the hack 'breaks' that apple releases every so often... these french iphones are immune to?

 

[samab]

So you're saying you only needed to be forced to use the network the Apple/AT&T cartel dictate for two years and after they've gotten their $1,500 in contract fees from you, you're free to unlock your now out of date phone to use on the provider you would have preferred in the first place?

We don't live in a perfect world --- but the American iphone users paid for a cheaper iphone and cheaper service plan and a promise to get the unlocking codes for free. That is much better than what the Europeans are facing.

 

[Unspeaked]

We don't live in a perfect world --- but the American iphone users paid for a cheaper iphone and cheaper service plan and a promise to get the unlocking codes for free. That is much better than what the Europeans are facing.

I agree it's better than nothing, but it's hardly a solution.

As we've already established, it's difficult to compare the US and EU markets, so saying Americans have got it better than Europeans shouldn't bear much weight. Just because it's better than they've got it (price-wise) doesn't mean it's good.

questions,,
1)if i had one of these unlocked french phones, could i bring it to the states and use it on the tmobile network?
2)the hack 'breaks' that apple releases every so often... these french iphones are immune to?

1) Yes, as long as you had a T-Mobile SIM (an American one, I assume).

2) Yes, these should update firmware with no problem.

 

[samab]

I agree it's better than nothing, but it's hardly a solution.

As we've already established, it's difficult to compare the US and EU markets, so saying Americans have got it better than Europeans shouldn't bear much weight. Just because it's better than they've got it (price-wise) doesn't mean it's good.

It was difficult to compare US and Europe because most people (most Europeans) don't know anything about European simlocking laws. So the iphone launch in Europe will clear that up --- the European simlocking laws are absolutely useless.

It was difficult to compare US and Europe because most people would pick some small European country with a vastly different GDP per capita and cost of living standards than the US. What we have here right now is a much better comparison between US and the 3 biggest and richest European countries (UK, Germany and France) which combined has 2/3 of the American population.

With respect to getting a fair comparison between the 2 sides of the Atlantic --- this is as close as you can get for a fair comparison.

 

[Stella]

Unfortunately, it doesn't always works that way. Companies collude to control prices etc.

If your an american, I guess you don't mind paying very high drug prices... Due to high drug prices the health insurance premiums are higher. Wouldn't you like government intervention to lower prices, or keep on being ripped off?

I would not buy a car if I did not like the contract, that choice would impact the company that sold the car in a negative way, then I would buy a car from another company with a contract that I liked which would impact that company in a positive way. You have that choice...

 

[samab]

Unfortunately, it doesn't always works that way. Companies collude to control prices etc.

It is only price collusion when different competitors in the same industry decide not to compete in price.

Apple and the carriers are not competitors --- they are business partners, so price collusion has nothing to do with it.

Canadians face much higher mobile service plans because the whole industry has only 3 players (Fido is owned by Rogers). That is the same number of national carriers in France --- too little competition means high prices.

 

[macbelgium]

So what?

Seriously. If GM came out with this car next year, why should the government care?

If it sells, doesn't that mean some people DO like it? If it doesn't sell, won't the company stop making it?

Those are the 2 choices. Either people want it or they don't. Why should the government care either way?

I'm not sure if it looks like it, but this is an honest question.

I don't really follow the american way of thinking about the government, but here in Europe the government is there to help it's people.

How would you like it if you and our partner worked on a product, invested lots of your money & time & you took great risk to get the product to the market place & the big fat lazy government walked in which does nothing, says here a law that will benefit your competitor, the company's that you're competing with will now get to sell what you have been working on. How would you like that?

If anything, it will increase the money you make because the consumer can do more with your product. If Apple would just sell the iPhones without binding it to a specific contract or dealer, people that use other networks would have a reason less not to buy the product. And the government doesn't step in at the end to tell you that what you've done isn't allowed. No, in Europe before a company starts a project it does a little thing called research.

There's no "technical" reason Burger King can't make a Big Mac. You think it would be better if the government forced McDonalds to let them make and sell it?

We have patents here in Europe. Your analogy doesn't really make sense. It's more like this: McDonalds creates a Big Mac but will only allow McDonalds to sell it (iPhone in USA). If McDonalds would allow Burger King to also sell it's Big Macs (iPhone like it's supposed to be in Europe) then they would sell more of them. And as it's still their Big Macs, they earn more money too. It's not like the dealer selling the iPhone gets the money for it, it's still an Apple product. I don't really understand why Apple would restrict the iPhone to a single dealer. I really don't get it, that's just bad business.

Show me where European carriers are not investing time and money to make their network compatible (visual voice mail) with the iphone.

The only companies that do that are the ones that sell the iPhone with the contracts. I remember when Apple first wanted to release the iPhone here. They went to the dealers and said: "congratulations, you can sell the iPhone with contract exclusively but you have to change this and this and this in your servers". They refused (it was mentioned on this site too).

Our system is not perfect but I like it better, if I wanted more socialism I would move to Europe.

You're like a stereotype american. You seem to fear the government and don't want in involved in anything, yet you've got many things under government control.

Look at the european launch of the iphone --- all the layers and layers of government interference and they ended up with a more expensive phone and more expensive phone plans.

That's just Apple trying to lure people to the iPhones with contracts.

How is Japan crushing the US in tech development?

Cars, for instance.

We don't live in a perfect world --- but the American iphone users paid for a cheaper iphone and cheaper service plan and a promise to get the unlocking codes for free. That is much better than what the Europeans are facing.

My mobile phone costs me 10 euro per month on average, I'd like to see an iPhone plan that will cost me only 10 euro per month.

the European simlocking laws are absolutely useless

Europeans want freedom. It is more important to us than the protection of giant companies or technological advancement. And really, we do quite well with or giant sacrifice of technology, don't you think.

 

[Unspeaked]

macbelgium makes such clear, practical points that simply make sense.

I agree with him 100%.

It's obvious he's European

 

[samab]

My mobile phone costs me 10 euro per month on average, I'd like to see an iPhone plan that will cost me only 10 euro per month.

Europeans want freedom. It is more important to us than the protection of giant companies or technological advancement. And really, we do quite well with or giant sacrifice of technology, don't you think.

Amercians can also point out some MVNO plans from 7-Eleven that are both very cheap and have prepaid balance that don't expire for like a year.

But if you want a fair comparison, then compare the regular price contract plans on the largest carriers for US, UK, France and Germany.

Americans want to use a cell phone --- as a cell phone. It is more important for us to actually be able to afford to make a phone call. They are also willing to pay extra premium for the best network coverage. Don't you think that it is a more mature thing to do?

 

[macbelgium]

Americans want to use a cell phone --- as a cell phone. It is more important for us to actually be able to afford to make a phone call. They are also willing to pay extra premium for the best network coverage. Don't you think that it is a more mature thing to do?

As I said, I pay about 10 euro per month for my mobile phone. That's hardly a cost that will bankrupt me. And I have never been in a situation where I didn't have network coverage, except at the movie theaters where they build Faraday cages around the cinemas.

 

[Beefeater]

Unfortunately, it doesn't always works that way. Companies collude to control prices etc.

If your an american, I guess you don't mind paying very high drug prices... Due to high drug prices the health insurance premiums are higher. Wouldn't you like government intervention to lower prices, or keep on being ripped off?

No I would not like government intervention for lower prices in the way Canada does it, I like our way better, that's not to say we can't do better...

I think price controls on drugs takes away some incentive for the drug company's to create more drugs. If there is not enough profit in it for them they won't do it.

 

[samab]

As I said, I pay about 10 euro per month for my mobile phone. That's hardly a cost that will bankrupt me. And I have never been in a situation where I didn't have network coverage, except at the movie theaters where they build Faraday cages around the cinemas.

How much would you have to pay for a data plan in Belgium?

What Americans pay for the iphone plan --- is a regular price voice plan and a regular data plan. No price gouging in the US for the iphone.

If there is price gouging for the iphone in Europe --- then it's the European carriers that are at fault, nothing to do with Apple.

 

[Unspeaked]

Amercians can also point out some MVNO plans from 7-Eleven that are both very cheap and have prepaid balance that don't expire for like a year.

I have had the equivalent of $10 worth of prepaid minutes last me nearly a month in Europe through a combination of incoming calls and texting.

I don't believe there's anyway one could get close to this in the US, even using prepaid plans - unless, of course, they didn't use the phone at all, but in the period referenced above I must've spent several hundred minutes on it.

But if you want a fair comparison, then compare the regular price contract plans on the largest carriers for US, UK, France and Germany.

I really don't see what your point here is.

OK, let's throw out texting and data - you're left with about 5 cents per minute in the US and 19 cents per minute in Europe.

Now, take into account the free incoming calls that don't restrict one to certain times of day like the "unlimited" US calling.

Now, take into account that fact that roaming charges don't exist in Europe, charges which can be very hefty in the US.

Then, if you tack on things like the fact that nearly all EU plans include texting, incoming texting is free (like calls) which isn't the case in the US (like calls), etc. you're looking at a much more even rate, or even a better rate if used properly.

Americans want to use a cell phone --- as a cell phone. It is more important for us to actually be able to afford to make a phone call. They are also willing to pay extra premium for the best network coverage. Don't you think that it is a more mature thing to do?

Again, I don't think Europeans (even those in the countries you name) sacrifice network coverage nor cost. The European plans suit the European lifestyle better. Many people in Europe only have a mobile.

The limited SMS and paid incoming calls in the States is something completely absurd to mobile users in Europe. I don't think even a tenth of Europeans you polled would trade their plans for US plans...

 

[eastcoastsurfer]

If there is price gouging for the iphone in Europe --- then it's the European carriers that are at fault, nothing to do with Apple.

What the carriers are doing is probably passing along the added Apple cut/cost to the consumer. What I would do is make sure the consumer knows that yes you just paid $400 or whatever for an iphone, and now you're going to pay for service and you're going to pay another $5-$10 to Apple each month for a phone you supposedly already bought.

 

[samab]

Now, take into account the free incoming calls that don't restrict one to certain times of day like the "unlimited" US calling.

Now, take into account that fact that roaming charges don't exist in Europe, charges which can be very hefty in the US.

The limited SMS and paid incoming calls in the States is something completely absurd to mobile users in Europe. I don't think even a tenth of Europeans you polled would trade their plans for US plans...

It wouldn't matter because most people get unlimited m2m as well in addition to unlimited nights and weekends.

We don't need roaming in the US --- it's big national carriers with coverage of 300 million people.

When Europeans actually live in the US for a while and began to have our usage patterns --- quite a few of them have expressed on hofo their preference to the American method of payment.

 

[samab]

What the carriers are doing is probably passing along the added Apple cut/cost to the consumer. What I would do is make sure the consumer knows that yes you just paid $400 or whatever for an iphone, and now you're going to pay for service and you're going to pay another $5-$10 to Apple each month for a phone you supposedly already bought.

The carriers don't have to say yes to Apple's demands. Verizon Wireless didn't.

 

[Beefeater]

I don't really follow the american way of thinking about the government, but here in Europe the government is there to help it's people.
If anything, it will increase the money you make because the consumer can do more with your product. If Apple would just sell the iPhones without binding it to a specific contract or dealer, people that use other networks would have a reason less not to buy the product. And the government doesn't step in at the end to tell you that what you've done isn't allowed. No, in Europe before a company starts a project it does a little thing called research.We have patents here in Europe. Your analogy doesn't really make sense. It's more like this: McDonalds creates a Big Mac but will only allow McDonalds to sell it (iPhone in USA). If McDonalds would allow Burger King to also sell it's Big Macs (iPhone like it's supposed to be in Europe) then they would sell more of them. And as it's still their Big Macs, they earn more money too. It's not like the dealer selling the iPhone gets the money for it, it's still an Apple product. I don't really understand why Apple would restrict the iPhone to a single dealer. I really don't get it, that's just bad business.The only companies that do that are the ones that sell the iPhone with the contracts. I remember when Apple first wanted to release the iPhone here. They went to the dealers and said: "congratulations, you can sell the iPhone with contract exclusively but you have to change this and this and this in your servers". They refused (it was mentioned on this site too).You're like a stereotype american. You seem to fear the government and don't want in involved in anything, yet you've got many things under government control.That's just Apple trying to lure people to the iPhones with contracts.Cars, for instance.My mobile phone costs me 10 euro per month on average, I'd like to see an iPhone plan that will cost me only 10 euro per month.Europeans want freedom. It is more important to us than the protection of giant companies or technological advancement. And really, we do quite well with or giant sacrifice of technology, don't you think.

Just responding to comment made by macbelgium that are related to my post.

1. It would be great if Apple sold phone to every carrier, but they don't, it's their phone, they made it let them sell it how they want, why is that so hard for you? Don't you have respect for other people things?. And about research maybe a European company should step up & do some research on how to make a phone that's better than the iPhone that American's made that you want so much.

2. About fearing the gov & not getting involved: You don't know me, how can you say that? I do get involved to limit government not enable it with more power. BTW I don't fear the gov, I just think it's lazy, corrupt & inefficient.

3. Japan crushing U.S in the car market: Yes Japan is doing well here but crushing, I don't think so. The only reason the U.S auto maker is not doing as well or their market is shrinking is the UAW, most Japanese auto makers do not have to deal with the UAW, it makes them more efficient, this has nothing to do with the government. Get rid of union labor & the U.S auto maker will have a level playing field. Anyway Sony "Japanese company" came to IBM "American tech company" to develop their cell processor, which is one of the most advanced processors.

 

[Buran]

While there are some legitimate use for SMS --- like avoiding someone's call, or texting people while in class

Or if you're hard of hearing, like I am. Or if you're in a noisy place. Or both (that is a nasty combination). I use SMS a lot as a result.

 

[Unspeaked]

The carriers don't have to say yes to Apple's demands. Verizon Wireless didn't.

Why would the carriers say no when they can just pass along the costs, as the poster said...?

 

[takao]

Amercians can also point out some MVNO plans from 7-Eleven that are both very cheap and have prepaid balance that don't expire for like a year.

But if you want a fair comparison, then compare the regular price contract plans on the largest carriers for US, UK, France and Germany.

my standard GSM tariff is:
5 euro a month
1000 free text (only outgoing)
5 cent per minute in all networks no matter mobile or line (only outgoing)
no data included but i think HSDPA is costing 15-20 (3-10GB data transfer) if you are already a customer

normally i'm around 7 euro per month for my bill

didn't pay anything for the phone i got.. sony erricson K-something

edit:
prepaid is 6.9 cents per minute in all networks (only outgoing of course)
and 3 cents per txt message

 

[Matti]

They are also willing to pay extra premium for the best network coverage. Don't you think that it is a more mature thing to do?

Best network coverage? In which continent do you see adverstisement for "least dropped calls". Ever seen european film where main character loses his phone connection at crucial moment? In which continent do you lose 3G coverage when you walk 10 feet past major metropolitan area (or sometimes even inside them)? Yesterday I took 200km train ride and never lost 3G connection on the way. Unlimited 3G data for 14 euros is sweet.

But if you want a fair comparison, then compare the regular price contract plans on the largest carriers for US, UK, France and Germany.

Why limit the comparison to those 3 countries? Convient for your argument? Thay aren't even the richest nations in Europe, altough you claim so.

 

[MBP15C2D4GBLED]

Funny stuff: Europeans and Government

I just wanted to put in my 2 cents here...

The primary argument here seems to be:

1) I want a iPhone
2) I don't want a contract
3) I want my government to make Apple give me a non-contract unlocked phone at the contract price.

A number people are declaring that its their god-given right to a unlocked iPhone.

However, I would argue that it is not. You don't *need* a iphone, you want a iphone. In a good free market, you pony up what is requested to get the goods and services you want in exchange. You don't get a heavyweight entity, such as your government, to go beat the merchant until he has to give you the goods at the price you request.

Finally, the last few posts have gone into attacking 3G in America. 3G over GSM networks does in fact die at a few miles out of a metro area. Most people in America who do not live in metro areas, buy CDMA technology phones, and our phones work far outside of the metro areas.

Just because your governments beat up your cell providers to get GSM as a standard in your areas, doesn't mean our government did the same to our carriers. And all in all, it has worked out for us the best. We get new technology faster, CDMA works over larger areas at less cost to the providers, and we have internet just about everywhere, even in a geologically spartan place as the United States of America.

So sorry, get over yourselves.