2010-2011 Football Thread

[Jaffa Cake]

An interesting point...what do y'all think?

Not one foreign player, Mr Wenger? There were a fair few who arrived in England prior to 1996. Eric Cantona, Peter Schmeichel, Jurgen Klinsmann, Ossie Ardiles, Bert Trautmann, Bruce Grobelaar, Ricky Villa... the list goes on. Maybe he just chose not to see those players?

There are teams far less set up to cope with this ruling than Arsenal – and he's wrong too to say that teams are being told that they can only have English players, homegrown doesn't mean English as his captain proves. Arsenal's youth set up is geared to bringing in lots of kids from overseas, and by the time they're 21 it doesn't matter whether they were born in London (England) or London (Ontario) – they're perfectly equal in so far as the 'homegrown' rule is concerned, nationality matters not one jot.

He's right however that better coaching is needed, that's something we're screaming out for but few in the FA seem to be able to get their heads around it.

As an aside, I read something a while back, I think this is correct – do you know which was the first team to play in the English leagues with an entirely non-English lineup, and when? The answer may surprise you...

You've got what you've got because you had some forward-thinking people who created the Premier League.

If I remember rightly, the Premier League was created by 22 inwardly-looking clubs interested in lining their pockets to the detriment of the rest of the Football League. But hey, Best League In The World™ and all that...

 

[Blue Velvet]

...do you know which was the first team to play in the English leagues with an entirely non-English lineup, and when? The answer may surprise you...

Complete guess. Newcastle United, early 90s?

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Complete guess. Newcastle United, early 90s?

If what I read is true, the first team to field an entirely non-English starting XI was none other than our old friends Accrington Stanley, way back in the mid-1950s. They regularly fielded all-Scottish teams back in the day.

It's enough to make Ian Rush choke on his milk, it really is...

EDIT: Just been checking out our squad, and I don't think our 'keeper Matt Duke actually qualifies as 'homegrown', despite being born in Englandshire. We bought him from (then) non-League Burton Albion and although he'd been at a couple of other non-League clubs before that, he doesn't look to have signed for the first of them until he was 20 so he won't have completed the required three years before turning 21.

I blame Arsene Wenger.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Re the MacRumors XI, I will try the utility player route

I've heard rumors that the Macrumors XI, in its quest to become the Best Team in the World™, has implemented it's own squad rule. 8 of the Macrumors XI must have been using Macs as their primary computer for at least three years since joining Macrumors. Of course, any number of under-21s may be used.

I came up through the Academy (Apple user since I could walk, Mac user since '92), so I'm homegrown.

It's enough to make Ian Rush choke on his milk, it really is...

That is crazy. And how could I forget Bert Trautmann? Not to mention Cantona and Schmeichel...Wenger is clearly off base there - although I feel there is a kernel of truth in what he says, i.e. the presence of foreign players alone cannot be blamed for England's failure to land a big trophy. Serie A, the Bundesliga and La Liga all have plenty of foreign players and their national teams have all been successfull recently.

 

[Fuzzy14]

1974, 1978 and 1994 - how many foreign players?

If what I read is true, the first team to field an entirely non-English starting XI was none other than our old friends Accrington Stanley, way back in the mid-1950s. They regularly fielded all-Scottish teams back in the day.

Remember that Scottish players are counted as foreigners, and in the 70s and 80s it seemed that every first division team had a Scotsman somewhere.
And I'm sure Berwick Rangers started putting out Scottish teams before Accrington but not sure if that counts.

And of course the reverse was true after Heysel, it sometimes seemed that Rangers were putting out an English squad!

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Remember that Scottish players are counted as foreigners, and in the 70s and 80s it seemed that every first division team had a Scotsman somewhere.

Indeed, and Irish players too.

So we can add players such as Alan Hansen, Kenny Dalglish, Denis Law, Graeme Souness, Roy Keane and George Best to Mr Wengers non-existent list – and that's just the tip of a very large iceberg...

And I'm sure Berwick Rangers started putting out Scottish teams before Accrington but not sure if that counts.

Very possibly, but they're classed as part of the Scottish League system and as such they wouldn't count.

I suppose conversely that Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham and Newport County must have put out all Welsh teams too but as they're part of the English system those players wouldn't be classed as foreign. I suppose then the earlier question regarding Accrington Stanley should really say non-English or Welsh.

 

[swiftaw]

Joe Hart is having a blinder. Spurs would be up 3 or 4 if not for him.

Edit: Just read that Miguel Arteta now qualifies for England, could be worth a call up Fabio?

Edit2: Blatter is at it again http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/8914308.stm

 

[swiftaw]

After 45 minutes of football I proclaim that Wigan are doomed this season. It is not possible to describe how horribly they played in the first half. The 3-0 scoreline is an unfair reflection of events in that it should be more. Blackpool had a perfectly valid goal disallowed and had several other good chances.

Wigan's defense has been nonexistent, I'm sure Alan Hansen will have lots of choice words to describe it.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Shocked at the big Blackpool win, and the Spurs-City result is interesting although Man City should probably have won. I expect Chelski to batter West Brom.

A bit of a howler from Tim Howard costs Everton the match - but if you don't score you can't expect much.

Can't wait to see Liverpool take to the pitch tomorrow, but I'm expecting to drop points.

What happened with Millwall Jaffa? Hopefully Pearson kicks a shoe at someone and gets the boys motivated for next week.

Edit2: Blatter is at it again http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/8914308.stm

I wish that man would simply dry up and blow away. What an ass (Although, scrapping extra time would have helped USA in our match against Ghana) Sepp, just please shut up and go back to your buffet.

 

[Nieval]

Shocked at the big Blackpool win, and the Spurs-City result is interesting although Man City should probably have won. I expect Chelski to batter West Brom.

All in all, an interesting season opener, I had money on a Blackpool upset so I was happily surprised. Top class first half performance from Spurs although Mancini did make it easy for them.
Tevez has an infamous tendency to drop deep and with Silva entertaining an unfamiliar role in an unfamiliar league for him, Man City lacked a man in the box and so any real attacking threat. I was disappointed with Barry being deployed on the left, a (unsuccessful?) attempt to neutralize Lennon and as a result Yaya was the player left with enough space on the ball to try to create chances (again an unfamiliar role in an unfamiliar league debut). Jonathan Wilson might just be right in that we should expect reactivity instead of proactivity this year but I must admit I'm glad Spurs might be the ones representing English football in Europe, an "English manager who plays an English 4-4-2" as Jon carter once put it.

Can't wait to see Liverpool take to the pitch tomorrow, but I'm expecting to drop points.

I fancy a Liverpool win but regardless of the result it should be a cracker.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I fancy a Liverpool win but regardless of the result it should be a cracker.

Cesc's flirtations with Barca aside, Arsenal are much the same (good) side they were last year While Liverpool have a new manager and a few new players (and also a frightening ownership situation, still unresolved).

I think it's possible we could take a real beating, and Torres is not fit. Too many question marks to make a strong prediction - I can only say that Arsenal are the better side on paper. Let's see what happens!

 

[awmazz]

I expect Chelski to batter West Brom.

I really dislike Chelsea. Not the team or club, but what it represents. Buying trophies and titles with non-football money. This 6-0 win will never strike me as a superior football team fairly thrashing an inferior one, but a cheating team thrashing a non-cheating one. Cheating by bringing in expensive ring-ins paid for by non-club money.

Instead of these squad restrictions they should have financing rules governing clubs only operating within their footballing revenue budgets. No rich sugar daddy owners injecting barrels of cash into a club that they can never repay.

If what I read is true, the first team to field an entirely non-English starting XI was none other than our old friends Accrington Stanley, way back in the mid-1950s. They regularly fielded all-Scottish teams back in the day.

In the Premier League, I recall it was Arsenal when Ashley Cole was out injured for the match and Giles Grimandi started instead of Ooh Ahh Ray Parlour. I may be wrong though, my memory's not as good as it was.

 

[AAPLaday]

I think Arsenal will win this one. If they pass and move like they can then Liverpool will be chasing shadows. However new boss and all that, players wanting to impress you just never know

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Wow, agonizingly close to a win!!!

In all, a great result for the 'Pool. Considering that nobody puts us in even the top five this year, taking points off a top four team is a great result - especially when we played half the match with ten men and even scored when a man down.

Cole's foul was a red of course, but I think the team played well overall and made all of arsenal's possession count for little. The own goal by Reina was unlucky, but I am happy with a point.

Mascherano played well, that is worth noting. Whatever Roy said to keep him motivated (at least in the short term), it worked.

I really dislike Chelsea. Not the team or club, but what it represents. Buying trophies and titles with non-football money. This 6-0 win will never strike me as a superior football team fairly thrashing an inferior one, but a cheating team thrashing a non-cheating one. Cheating by bringing in expensive ring-ins paid for by non-club money.

I have the same visceral reaction to the nouveau riche football clubs that swoop in and start winning things, but the reality is that everyone does it - some just have more money than others. It's true though that most of the biggest clubs' fan bases are diluted with bandwagon fans who only want to see winning sides, rather than dyed-in-the-wool local hardcore fans. But the reality is, there aren't enough people in Manchester to make United as big as they are - once you start marketing globally, the locals can no longer claim full ownership of the team anymore...it becomes the sporting equivalent of a multinational corporation...hence all the preseason tours etc.

And history romanticises things. People say clubs like Liverpool have history - and they do - but just because something happened 100 years ago doesn't change the way contemporary observers saw it. For example, if Man City goes on to win a dozen league titles in the next 100 years, people in the future will look back on the club's "illustrious history", but the fact remains that right now they look like johhny-come-latelys. People thought the same way many years ago when Liverpool's trophy cabinet was bare.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Ultimately, football is dominated by a handful of superclubs and one of the key reasons they hold their lofty positions is down to how rich they are. There's a lot of money in the game but too much is claimed by too few, giving them a huge advantage over other clubs who can't afford the ever rising transfer and wage budgets needed to compete at the highest level. The result is that teams further down the pecking order are gambling their very futures trying just to keep up.

In this country, most of the cash goes into the Premier League and its top clubs, while the Champions League is a cash cow designed to pour even more money into their coffers. It's the rich clubs that are the continuously successful, and this success in turns brings in more revenue to keep them at the top. All the big clubs have bought their success to a degree, be it based on money from TV revenues (a primary reason for the foundation of the Premier League in the first place), rich sugar daddies, or lenders who are prepared to indulge the massive debts certain clubs are building up as they continue to buy overpriced players on ridiculous wages.

Chelsea have, through a rich owner, given themselves a shortcut into this elite group and Manchester City are looking to do the same. But the Premier League – and football in general – is obsessed with money, and the rich are the ones who prosper. So forgive me if I shed few tears if the likes of Manchester City are able to 'buy' themselves trophies and titles, and use their owner's money to buy themselves dominance of English football for a period of time. I don't like the situation one jot, but that's the nature of the beast that has been created and perhaps it will help show up something that is seriously wrong with the game.

 

[Blue Velvet]

Manchester City are looking to do the same.

Precisely. However, I suspect that Chelsea, being a relatively affluent part of London, attracts a certain amount of ire on that basis alone.

For the sights they set themselves, Chelsea are a bit financially hamstrung through ground capacity. Stamford Bridge really doesn't have much more scope for redevelopment, so it's not unreasonable to seek income streams from elsewhere, especially to keep up with Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd, Bayern Munich etc. And for all their big talk, they're not really a global brand to the extent that some other clubs are, so I can't imagine merchandising bringing in as comparatively much as some clubs can rake in.

Anyway, the tunes of supporters of any club rapidly change when a new owner comes in with deep pockets.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

If the rich clubs and their owners are greedy opportunists that keep other clubs in permanent (relative) poverty - and I think they are, more or less - then the league and FA have to take the blame for creating an environment where they permit or even promote such behavior.

We can revile the clubs, but as Jaffa pointed out it's the system that made things the way things are. As long as the Premier League allows the top clubs to create a footballing oligarchy, that's exactly what is going to happen. The FA is the only organization that can do anything about it, and they seem firmly in the top clubs' pockets.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

I suspect that Chelsea, being a relatively affluent part of London, attracts a certain amount of ire on that basis alone.

That may well contribute, but I think a reason why Chelsea maybe get a bit more hostility on this issue is the fact that Manchester City haven't yet got anything to actually show for the money that they're spending. When they start winning trophies there's going to be a lot more complaining directed towards them.

As for Stamford Bridge, I think they can add another 10,000 or so onto the capacity to take it up to 50,000 but that's it – there's no more space on the site, and access to the stadium isn't suited to the extra fans. I believe that an obstacle against a move to a new stadium – as well as the obvious cost and upheaval – is the fact that the club don't actually own the 'Chelsea' name directly, it's tied in with the freehold of the site and a change of stadium would also force a change of name. Whether the naming rights are something that the club could purchase I don't know.

Anyway, the tunes of supporters of any club rapidly change when a new owner comes in with deep pockets.

They do indeed...

The FA is the only organization that can do anything about it, and they seem firmly in the top clubs' pockets.

The problem is, any changes to Premier League regulations have to be voted in by the 20 shareholders, who are none other than the 20 football clubs that make it up. The FA doesn't get involved in the general running of the league, although it does have veto rights in certain areas.

Basically, asking the biggest clubs in the country to adopt a new financial structure that could impact on their wealth is only going to get one answer, and it's not an affirmative one.

I think the Bundesliga has things a lot better in so far as finances are concerned – there are very strict regulations in place governing how clubs are run in this regard. Some critics argue that their system puts German clubs at a disadvantage in Europe when they come up against more free spending opposition from other nations, but we can't go carrying on the way we are.

 

[Blue Velvet]

When they start winning trophies

You know, I can't quite see it. Not sure why, apart from a lack of patience from the board... and no disrespect intended to any Man City supporters, but I've got a hunch that it's going to be far more difficult for them than perhaps they might think.

Going back a bit: suspiciously, you know a little too much about Chelsea. Sure you don't want me to send a nice blue replica shirt to you?

 

[Jaffa Cake]

You know, I can't quite see it. Not sure why, apart from a lack of patience from the board... and no disrespect intended to any Man City supporters, but I've got a hunch that it's going to be far more difficult for them than perhaps they might think.

I certainly can't see them embarking on a Manchester United-style period of domestic dominance, but over the upcoming years I reckon they've a more than reasonable chance of picking up a cup or two and maybe wiggle their way into a Champions League spot at some point. But no, the owners might not have quite grasped that it's not simply a case of flinging cash at the problem – not that they aren't having a go at doing that.

Going back a bit: suspiciously, you know a little too much about Chelsea.

Nah – I just do my research, that's all.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

You know, I can't quite see it. Not sure why, apart from a lack of patience from the board... and no disrespect intended to any Man City supporters, but I've got a hunch that it's going to be far more difficult for them than perhaps they might think.

Cheslea were one of the first to go that route, and I think it gets harder as things get more crowded at the top. Man City will find it harder to dominate the way Chelsea and Man U have unless more top clubs begin to drop down a bit.

Regardless, I tihnk Man City will buy a big silverware with all this investment. I feel it is inevitible, unless they crash out due to pure mismanagement (always a possibility).

Going back a bit: suspiciously, you know a little too much about Chelsea. Sure you don't want me to send a nice blue replica shirt to you? [/QUOTE]

I certainly can't see them embarking on a Manchester United-style period of domestic dominance, but over the upcoming years I reckon they've a more than reasonable chance of picking up a cup or two and maybe wiggle their way into a Champions League spot at some point.

I think they may do better than that, especially when Fergie retires. I can't see Man U sustaining their success without him. They won't plummet, mind you, but he has an awful lot to do with their success over his tenure.

I just bumped into my first fellow Liverpool fan in Alaska today! A Greek gentleman spotted my Liverpool shirt and came over to chat for a second. I didn't "mention the war" (i.e. Greece's WC campaign), and we had a nice little conversation. That makes two of us now.

Maradona has shown interest in the Villa job. Unless he's planning to take the piss out of the English, I suggest Lerner avoid this move. Although, if Maradona made the move and people took to him it would prove that club football is more important that internationals...

He loves the English countryside and your respect for privacy, so he would be very happy there, especially at a big club like Aston Villa.

Somebody's got their countries mixed up, I reckon.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Maradona has shown interest in the Villa job.

I was just going to post this myself. I think it would be a brilliant appointment, for all the wrong reasons mind.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I don't care about the reasons. I just want to see Maradona in regular press conferences again Comedy Gold!!

 

[Jaffa Cake]

To be fair, the words 'Maradona' and 'reason' shouldn't really be in the same sentence.

 

[swiftaw]

Wow, Newcastle's shirts look hideous with the white back.