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2010 Formula One Thread
- Thread starter RaceTripper
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I can see that I'm gonna have my work cut out today. 
Can anyone of you please point out where the team explicity told Massa to give up his place?
May I also suggest that a lot of people here really need to re-familiarise themselves with McLaren in Turkey, or Renault in 2005 and 2006, or McLaren in 2003.
Not to mention the multitude of other races where similar incidents have occurred since 2002.
I'm not stupid, everyone knows what just happened, but... it's no different to what all of the other teams have been doing since 2002, and it would be disingenuous of anyone to argue that it's not been going on.
No.
No it's not.
That's likely given recent decisions. They've already been summoned by the stewards.
I'm expecting a penalty.
Or Japan 1991, or Jerez 1997 or Australia 1998 etc etc.
But between drivers isn't against the rules... which is the situation we have today, and in dozens of races since 2002.
It's disappointing to think that's probably aimed at me, people may or may not agree with me, I don't mind that, but I always try and at least give a well formed and reasoned argument. *shrugs*
I agree...
Completely unnecessary really.
I enjoyed watching Jordan squirm after he was pontificating about how unsporting and manipulative it was, and was then put right on the spot by Coulthard about Spa 1998. But it was legal then he reasoned.... yeah Eddie, but still unsporting and manipulative.
Cheeky sod.
Can anyone of you please point out where the team explicity told Massa to give up his place?
May I also suggest that a lot of people here really need to re-familiarise themselves with McLaren in Turkey, or Renault in 2005 and 2006, or McLaren in 2003.
Not to mention the multitude of other races where similar incidents have occurred since 2002.
I'm not stupid, everyone knows what just happened, but... it's no different to what all of the other teams have been doing since 2002, and it would be disingenuous of anyone to argue that it's not been going on.
No.
No it's not.
Then I eagerly await for the FIA to strip Alonso from his win and penalize Ferrari.
That's likely given recent decisions. They've already been summoned by the stewards.
I'm expecting a penalty.
omg, i did not just hear what i heard from Ferrari?? this reeks of austria 2002...that's all i can say.
Or Japan 1991, or Jerez 1997 or Australia 1998 etc etc.
But between drivers isn't against the rules... which is the situation we have today, and in dozens of races since 2002.
It's disappointing to think that's probably aimed at me, people may or may not agree with me, I don't mind that, but I always try and at least give a well formed and reasoned argument. *shrugs*
I agree...
Completely unnecessary really.
I enjoyed watching Jordan squirm after he was pontificating about how unsporting and manipulative it was, and was then put right on the spot by Coulthard about Spa 1998.
But it was legal then he reasoned.... yeah Eddie, but still unsporting and manipulative. They could always give iGav a call.
Cheeky sod.
Cheeky sod.
You've already done a better job than that useless Ferrari Press Officer and proved my point.
Regarding Turkey, the argument was that initially Button was faster, then overtook Hamilton (as he was on fuel saving mode), and then go retook when Lewis went back under him. They held position on fuel saving mode. I can't remember the Renault incidents - obviously Piquet in Singapore was horrendous - but this move causes so many problems for me. The message that Massa got was an indication he had to move over - there were no tyre problems, no fuel saving mode, there was not even a defence of the move. It was on an unusual section of the track for an overtake, and Fellipe's pace afterwards was very similar to Fernando's. Rob Smedley's words are telling: whilst there was not a clear "Felipe, move over", he was essentially told to move over.
Oh dear Ferrari, at it again, i feel for Massa more than anything, and Rob Smedley too come to think of it, that was never his call, disqualification perhaps?
@iGav.
Rule 39.1 clearly states...
Team orders which interfere with the race result are prohibited.
Massas radio transmition was clear "alonso is faster that you" "do you understand"
Massa backed off in a very clear way 2 corners later.
Rob the said "I'm sorry mate"
Now that to myself and everyone out there is team orders. If alonso wanted past he should have to fight for the position. Not bloody ask for it. We were robbed.
Rule 39.1 clearly states...
Team orders which interfere with the race result are prohibited.
Massas radio transmition was clear "alonso is faster that you" "do you understand"
Massa backed off in a very clear way 2 corners later.
Rob the said "I'm sorry mate"
Now that to myself and everyone out there is team orders. If alonso wanted past he should have to fight for the position. Not bloody ask for it. We were robbed.
The stewards agree with you. It appears they're going for the fine [immediate fine, as suggested by Brundle], and then leaving the panel to suggest any further punishments.
A $100,000 fine. Results stand. With the money Ferrari has I'm sure they will consider it to be a good investment.
Next week should be interesting. We'll see if the Ferrari pace was not just a mirage. There's even less passing in Hungary so if Alonso is has designs on getting in front of Massa he'd better do it early.
Next week should be interesting. We'll see if the Ferrari pace was not just a mirage. There's even less passing in Hungary so if Alonso is has designs on getting in front of Massa he'd better do it early.
Plural okay it must mean I'm one of the co-conspirators then.
You've already done a better job than that useless Ferrari Press Officer and proved my point.
Thanks I think. Hahahahaha.
Oh no, the team orders the drivers were getting before their little show, but my point is though, in Turkey McLaren were issuing team orders, period, when it was completely unnecessary to do so. Team orders are either allowed or they are not regardless of the genesis or implementation.
Renault in 2005 and 2006 were especially bad, it was discussed on here in whatever the F1 thread was at the time, other such incidents have been discussed at the time as well, but essentially Fisi was given the same information on occasion as Massa was today.
Or Suzuka 2003.
Didn't McLaren pull a similar trick at Hockenheim between Hamilton/Kovi in 2008 as well. But they (McLaren) said it was a decision taken between the drivers, not an order from the team, much like what happened today in fact, Massa didn't have to give way, he did it for the team, I suspect Kovi was doing exactly the same too.
But I think you highlight the point, It was indeed an indication but essentially or not it wasn't an order and that is the difference, Ferrari did not ask Massa to yield his position, they indicated that Alonso was faster. In reality it was no different to the example I gave of McLaren at Hockenheim a couple of years back.
He was bitching several laps earlier about Massa not letting the great Finger Boy past wasn't he.
And I remember comments made by Alonso about team orders etc when he was fighting Schumacher for the 2006 title too.
I'm aware what 39.1 states,
And team orders are prohibited.
But Ferrari did not order Massa to yield his position.
A team order would've been something along the lines of "Alonso is faster than you, you have to let him past .
That is the difference.
Coulthard called it right, every team has done exactly the same thing, and any of them that claim different are liars.
McLaren have done it, Renault have done it Red Bull probably haven't but that's because their approach is to sabotage one of their cars each race depending on who is the dissenting driver at the time.
I think you've hit the nail pretty much on the head, it's a double edged sword, everyone knows it's going on, so do you do it in a way so as not to take the fans as being stupid (though ultimately given the current rules you have to maintain deniability after the race) and so that everyone knows what's really going on or do you attempt to stage manage a faux-battle between teammates?
Ultimately isn't it more preferable for a team to be more open about it, rather than surreptitiously attempting to stage manage a faux-battle so that fans like Gav2k think that they've not been robbed of a race when often that is exactly what is happening when a team is in a 1-2 position?
We must remember that F1 is and always has been a team sport. And that these things have been going on since the very beginning. Can you imagine if Alonso's car started faltering, and Ferrari called both of there cars in and Massa gave Alonso his car they'd be uproar now, but that is the sort of thing that used to happen in the '50's.
But team orders never should've been banned in the first place, it was a completely knee jerk reaction to Austria 2002, which in my opinion paled in comparison to McLaren's actions in the first race of the 1998 season, or the conspiracy between Williams and McLaren in Jerez in 1997.
I'm not surprised, but again this comes down to the consistency, or lack thereof of the stewards.
As I said at the beginning, team orders are either allowed or they are not regardless of the genesis or implementation.
Of course, the easiest way to stop this would be to simply ban pit to car radio.
But let me make myself clear, I don't think it should've happened, nor was there a need for it to happen, but I don't have a problem with it or the way in which it was done given that every team does it.
How naive do you think all F1 fans are Gav?
It was blatant, it was gratuitous, and it was deserving of the punishments it has already received... and more.
The moaning whining attitude of Alonso, and the pure unadulterated contempt that Ferrari has yet again shown for followers of the sport - I can't imagine how or why anyone would want to support or defend either of them.
Steve Matchett during the FOX broadcast noted that a clearly faster teammate could be allowed to past a slower teammate if it was made clear. Hence Rob Smedley telling Massa to build the gap and when he couldn't and Alonso consistently out-lapped him, he had to give up the position.
It was clear that Rob Smedley was telling Massa to concede his position, and that the stewards slapped them with a fine implies that such Steve might have been wrong.
It was clear that Rob Smedley was telling Massa to concede his position, and that the stewards slapped them with a fine implies that such Steve might have been wrong.
Was that in-between the 5 seconds of the race he wasn't scrawling idiotic yellow lines over the screen?
Having watched F1 on both sides of the pond, the Speed/FOX commentary team are clueless, idiotic, childish, and catastrophically misinformed about F1 in general. Furthermore, the on-screen graphics added to the mix are garish, loud and pointless, the on-screen adverts for upcoming programs are so loud you can't here what's going on. It's utter torture watching the sport I love ruined by such poor presentation.
THe highlight of the day - when all the commentary team started talking over one another. At least at that point, i couldn't hear what any of them were saying.
Having watched F1 on both sides of the pond, the Speed/FOX commentary team are clueless, idiotic, childish, and catastrophically misinformed about F1 in general. Furthermore, the on-screen graphics added to the mix are garish, loud and pointless, the on-screen adverts for upcoming programs are so loud you can't here what's going on. It's utter torture watching the sport I love ruined by such poor presentation.
THe highlight of the day - when all the commentary team started talking over one another. At least at that point, i couldn't hear what any of them were saying.
Trust me - you have NO idea just how lucky you are. I actually download the BBC coverage to enjoy it, after watching the races on US TV. I miss it so much.
What, the Speed crew wrong about something in F1 <gasp> OMG, say it isn't so.Steve Matchett during the FOX broadcast noted that a clearly faster teammate could be allowed to past a slower teammate if it was made clear. Hence Rob Smedley telling Massa to build the gap and when he couldn't and Alonso consistently out-lapped him, he had to give up the position.
It was clear that Rob Smedley was telling Massa to concede his position, and that the stewards slapped them with a fine implies that such Steve might have been wrong.
Oh I wouldn't say all... only the ones that believe that Ferrari are the only team that use team orders perhaps.
So is your issue more that is was "blatant"? Or do you genuinely believe that this isn't actually going on in other teams as well?
I completely disagree that it was gratuitous, we're now in the second half of the season, and going into yesterday's race Alonso was arguably the only Ferrari driver still within (realistic) reach of the leaders, Massa was some 78 points behind Hamilton for example.
So how exactly are Ferrari any different from McLaren (or Renault for that matter... and pretty much every other team on the grid)? I don't know why I bothered putting the question mark actually, when it's clear that I'm being rhetorical, there isn't any difference is there. At all.
Whitmarsh to hold private Ferrari talks.
And the worrying thing is, it seems like he genuinely believes what he is saying.
Martin Whitmarsh said:
Except when you use team orders of course Martin... oh that's right, they're not team orders, they're agreements between the drivers aren't they... well except when you're instructing your drivers not to race... oh hang on, you don't do that... because your drivers are always allowed to race, oh wait...
i'll just say what i have been saying for years.
team orders are present in F1.
always were, always will. And they should.
All teams do it. in some cases it's more obvious, in others is more subtle.
I am not sure which is worse: the teams who disregards the part of the public who is outraged by it and does it rather brazenly, or the teams who make fun of the same people (and insult the intelligence of the rest at the same time who see through the cler ruse) by pretending not to do it while doing it sneakily (like by 'accidentally' slowing down pit stops and such).
in the end it doesn't matter. Team order should be allowed fully and openly, like in any other team sports, if the team think it is in their best interest. then let the teams deal with the backlash from the fans, if any.
otherwise just make them 1-car teams and the problem is solved.
the outrage with austrian schumi/barrichello devacle wasn't that it occured, or even that it occurred so openly. but hat it was a completely unnecessary move, as schumacher was going to be a runaway winner of the title anyways that year.
in the much touted 'golden years' of F1, 'second' drivers had to give their #1 driver THEIR CAR, let alone their position.
team orders are present in F1.
always were, always will. And they should.
All teams do it. in some cases it's more obvious, in others is more subtle.
I am not sure which is worse: the teams who disregards the part of the public who is outraged by it and does it rather brazenly, or the teams who make fun of the same people (and insult the intelligence of the rest at the same time who see through the cler ruse) by pretending not to do it while doing it sneakily (like by 'accidentally' slowing down pit stops and such).
in the end it doesn't matter. Team order should be allowed fully and openly, like in any other team sports, if the team think it is in their best interest. then let the teams deal with the backlash from the fans, if any.
otherwise just make them 1-car teams and the problem is solved.
the outrage with austrian schumi/barrichello devacle wasn't that it occured, or even that it occurred so openly. but hat it was a completely unnecessary move, as schumacher was going to be a runaway winner of the title anyways that year.
in the much touted 'golden years' of F1, 'second' drivers had to give their #1 driver THEIR CAR, let alone their position.
Come on Gav - explicit examples of other teams (apart from the hideous manipulation of the Valencia by Renault ) of driver pulling over to let another driver win.
The past decade is a suitable sample. I can think of it happening three times.
The past decade is a suitable sample. I can think of it happening three times.
As you should be aware, team orders are not restricted to a driver "pulling over to let another driver win", team orders apply to all cars, in all positions it matters neither whether you're first, or last, given this fact you are being entirely disingenuous by attempting to change the discussion at hand.
I've noticed that you failed to answer my question regarding whether your issue is more that what Ferrari did was, in your words "blatant" etc, but given the nature of your comments above, I don't think it would be unreasonable of me to presume that your issue isn't actually with team orders themselves, unless you wish to clarify your position of course?