2010 Mac Pro Protection

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by vogelhausdesign, Sep 20, 2010.

  1. vogelhausdesign macrumors regular

    vogelhausdesign

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    #1
    Hey everyone, My 2010 2.93 12-core system will be here in a few days and I just thought of something important that I haven't had to think of in quite some time.

    Surge Protection and Power Conditioning.

    So I have a few questions for you guys, i'll let you know what I'm running and you tell me if you think im protected or if I need better protection ( recommendations would be in order )

    Mac Pro 2.93 12-core
    4 HDD 7200 RPM
    ATi HD 5870
    30" ACD
    2 Powered speakers and a powered sub


    All of them plugged into a Furman ML-8 Power Conditioner ( see here http://www.guitarcenter.com/Furman-M-8L-Power-Conditioner-181116-i1564635.gc )

    What do you think? Should I get a different protector/conditioner? I've looked around and I saw this issue before on here, but it was antiquated information.

    Thanks everyone:apple:
     
  2. Sean Dempsey macrumors 68000

    Sean Dempsey

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2006
    #2
    Dude.

    Surge protectors are for grandmas.

    You need a UPS

    Uninterpretable
    Power
    Supply


    They connect to your machine via USB, and if they lose power source, they send a message to OSX to shut down, and at certain minute warnings it will force your apps to quite and shut down your machine. Saved me more than once.

    And, of course they do surge protection anyways. But for what you're rolling (you didn't mention RAM), I'd say find the UPS that does justice to your rig. I know I did, and never looked back.
     
  3. johnnymg macrumors 65816

    johnnymg

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    #3
  4. vogelhausdesign thread starter macrumors regular

    vogelhausdesign

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    Columbus, Ohio
    #4
    I'm not sure I trust battery back-up systems. I don't think Furman Power conditioners are for Grandmas , but what's so special about a UPS deal anyhow?

    By the way 24g ram
     
  5. philipma1957 macrumors 603

    philipma1957

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2010
    Location:
    Howell, New Jersey
    #5
    that furman is a 35 dollar piece of junk. it is not a real power conditioner they are abusing the english language by calling it a power conditioner.

    A real power conditioner will have a transformer not a bunch of ten cent movs that are in your piece of gear. I could write 5000 words about this,but I won't . 3 links for you to have for your home/business.

    1)http://www.smarthome.com/4860/Leviton-Whole-House-Surge-Suppressor-Surge-Protector-51120-1/p.aspx

    this is a whole house surge protector this is for when the power companys large transformer blows up and surges your entire home, been there done that.


    2)http://www.expressups.com/ sell a refurbished unit search for su1400rm2u this has a real sine wave.



    3)http://www.buy.com/prod/apc-1500-va...pe/q/sellerid/14369784/loc/101/202527810.html

    this is overkill this is a real power conditioner not the POS from furman. they are stretching truth a lot by calling that 35 dollar unit a power contitioner.. these 3 pieces are under 750 if you install them which you are allowed to do without an electrician in some states. so for 750 your entire home gets gets some surge protection from an outside problem. your 2500 plus in your case your 3000 plus mac pro gets really outstanding protection
     
  6. vogelhausdesign thread starter macrumors regular

    vogelhausdesign

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
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    Columbus, Ohio
    #6
    I don't see any links. And I appreciate the help guys. Another thing is I'm not trying to spend 400 on something that MAY save me. I don't use my workstation in storms, I do running backups while I work.

    Factor that in if you can. But I'm grateful for any recommendation
     
  7. vogelhausdesign thread starter macrumors regular

    vogelhausdesign

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    #7
    I don't need my condo protected. But good to know for future reference. I understand why a UPS smart system would be ideal. However, in my 10 years of running high end Mac systems I've never once had a problem with power. My concern is moderate with this new system however. My ideal price was something under $100 That will protect my Mac Pro from getting fried.
     
  8. chiefroastbeef macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Location:
    Dallas, Texas/ Hong Kong
    #8
    I'm in the process of purchasing a UPS for my Mac Pro and Drobo backup. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is to spend $300-$500 on an UPS (much rather have a SSD :) ), but in the long scheme of things, I much rather have the peace of mind in the years to come, after all bad things happen when we least expect. Now that I have an iPad, I am running VNC on it (logmein ignition) so I can access my Mac Pro from anywhere in the world, whether I am in the States, in China, Europe etc. I want to know that my computer will be safe in the event of a power outage of thunderstorm here in Hong Kong while it is plugged into the wall sleeping or running.
     
  9. vogelhausdesign thread starter macrumors regular

    vogelhausdesign

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    Columbus, Ohio
    #9
    Ok seems like everyone is saying UPS , so what's the cheapest UPS system I can get that's suitable for my rig? Is cyberpower any good? I don't need fancy looking LCD's I just need something solid and reliable.
    Suggestions? I can probably do $150 without getting too pissed off about spending more money.
    It is a $12,600 system however.
     
  10. johnnymg macrumors 65816

    johnnymg

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    #10
    Given your investment it only makes sense to "insure" it properly.

    My suggestion is to go back through the UPS thread. Heck, if you have questions you could even resurrect that thread. :p

    FWIW, unless otherwise convinced by some Apple expert I'm going to be using my CyberPower 1500 UPS.

    cheers
    JohnG
     
  11. Sean Dempsey macrumors 68000

    Sean Dempsey

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2006
    #11
    Hopefully you didn't spend 12,000 on what you listed.

    Oh please please please PLEASE tell me you did an Apple Store build to order option where you bought all your RAM and hard drives right from apple!

    With the ACD included, that'd be right at $12,000!

    I'd love to meet a real-life rube!
     
  12. chiefroastbeef macrumors 6502a

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    May 26, 2008
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    Dallas, Texas/ Hong Kong
    #12
    Reading the UPS threads in this forum, many people like the cyberpower 1500. If you are want the best UPS for your $12,000 system, most will agree that the APC SUA1500VA is best, it is a server grade SmartUPS. A refurbished unit for $249 can be found here: http://excessups.com/smartups-1500-sua1500-p-38.html

    If you have shelled out that much money on your rig, it only makes sense to spend $249 for protection and insurance. According to others, the units themselves can last a decade or longer, but the battery will need to be swapped every 3-5 years.
     
  13. vogelhausdesign thread starter macrumors regular

    vogelhausdesign

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    #13
    So tomorrow I'm going to go to Microcenter and look at UPS systems since shipping is insanely priced. The last thing I need to know is how many amps/watts the system should have . 850 , 900 , 1500?

    Or if anyone has one they'd like to sell let me know
     
  14. chiefroastbeef macrumors 6502a

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    May 26, 2008
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    #14
    The general consensus is Output Power Capacity: 865 Watts / 1500 VA , especially since you have a beast of a 12-core.
     
  15. johnnymg macrumors 65816

    johnnymg

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    Nov 16, 2008
    #15
    As a VERY minimum get a 1500. Microcenter sells the APC and CyberPower 1500 AVR sized units. These are "simulated" sine wave output units.

    The 1500 CP unit I have (~4 years now) is dead silent. I hate UPS's that hum........... which is common and VERY annoying.

    cheers
    JohnG
     
  16. Icaras macrumors 603

    Icaras

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    California, United States
    #16

    Is the "simulated" sine wave output good or bad? Does that also mean this model is regarded as a pure sine output unit?

    Sorry, I'm a dummy on UPS units. I'm just starting to learn about them myself as well as I need one for my hex-core.

    Also, you mention that the 1500AVR unit by CP is dead silent, which is a big plus for me. Also, does it generate a lot of heat? My room is hot as it is with just the mac Pro running. And do you think this unit would be suitable for a hex-core as well?
     
  17. vogelhausdesign thread starter macrumors regular

    vogelhausdesign

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    Columbus, Ohio
  18. Icaras macrumors 603

    Icaras

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    Mar 18, 2008
    Location:
    California, United States
    #18
    Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread! But I've been reading your thread among others with great interest. I've been looking through the UPS threads and the one on Apple's discussion forums and it seems that a "pure sine wave" output is not required after all, but my consensus is that a UPS with that feature is better, but also more expensive.

    I mean the first review of the CyberPower 1500AVR on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Cyberpower-CP...UTF8&coliid=I1DNUWKQX7PQR9&colid=DF7V5TWPO2A9) is from a Mac Pro user and johnny here obviously is using one so I think it's safe to say that myth is debunked.

    However, I'm still at a loss whether or not it is worth it to up purchase a higher model with pure sine wave output or if that 1500AVR will be adequate enough.

    As for one unit being enough, I almost have the exact setup as you. I myself will be running my hex-core, the 27" ACD, two 6" powered mackie monitors, a logitech z5500 5.1 system with powered sub, the time capsule and cable modem so I'm not sure if 1500 will handle all that. I also used to have an older version of the Furman power conditioner unit that you have but sold it a while ago when I realized that it wasn't doing much anyway. Yea, I think I also got it for $30 too lol. :D

    But, I'm seriously considering the unit CyberPower 1500AVR (the one with the LCD). Amazon sells it for $163.25 as of this writing. Just searching for more clarification on this first.
     
  19. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    May 6, 2008
    #19
    It can be bad, as they can damage equipment connected to them when running off of the inverter.

    Sometimes it's fine, others not so much, so I tend to think of it as "How much risk am I going to accept on an expensive system"?

    For $250, you can get a refurbished SUA1500 (Line interactive, pure sine output), or a new model that's not as good (Line interactive, stepped wave output). Your choice. :eek: :p

    No, it's stepped. People are attracted to the pricing, as new, they're much cheaper than the APC Smart UPS models (or similar). What they don't seem to realize, is that they can get refurbished units that are better units for similar money (you may have to live with some cosmetic imperfections, but to me, it's about protecting the system, not how pretty it is).

    This type of unit usually runs off of the wall (battery + inverter only kick in when needed). So the heat output shouldn't be that bad.

    A hex core would be fine on 1500VA, so long as you don't have everything you can plug in running off of the UPS (keep it to the bare minumum, such as computer + monitor + ISP/networking gear (DSL or cable modem/router for example) + necessary external equipment). That's it.
     
  20. vogelhausdesign thread starter macrumors regular

    vogelhausdesign

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    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    #20
    No worries about hijacking, everything you said is relevant. But I'd still like a few more suggestions for UPS systems as well. Just want to make sure I'm covered. The main thing I'm concerned about is power fluctuation like when the A/C or fridge motor kicks on. I've always noticed a pop in my speakers, but nothing when I had everything plugged into the furman ( I don't know where you guys got the $30 figure, it was $120 when I got it at a discount lol )

    So let's get a few more people weighing in on this topic so we can have total clarity on what we need and don't need
     
  21. Icaras macrumors 603

    Icaras

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    California, United States
    #21
    Thanks Nano! Good advice, especially when it comes to protecting your investment. I'm looking at it now and I'll have to read more of the other link UPS thread from this thread. However, I need to try to find the right balance of protection/sound level as well, because I'm in the same boat as Ravich from this thread: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1004739

    As a Logic/audio user, I don't want to have something that will be apparently audible in the background. The other thing that attracted me to that 1500 unit by CyberPower that Johnny mentioned (beside the price of course) was that it is super quiet.

    Yes, I remember reading a post of yours about it being stepped somewhere else. They are definitely cheaper which is definitely attractive, I agree.

    Although I am looking at the SUA1500 that you referred to, I also want to take in other vendors for consideration.

    What about this unit from Cyberpower that offers pure sine wave output:

    http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/smart-app-ups/pp-series/PR1500LCDRTXL2U.html

    I'm really hoping Apple will post up their power consumption page for the new 2010 Mac Pros. Since the Westmere models are using a new 32nm processors, shouldn't that offset some of the energy consumption from the nehalem models? So for example, wouldn't the hex-core be very close or similar to that of the 2009 quad core power consumption numbers?

    Also I listed my equipment in the prior post. I have everything you just mentioned, but I'm worried because like the OP, as I also have two powered monitors (which can go beyond 200 watts each according to spec sheets), and a powered sub that is part of a 5.1 system that can go up to 505 watts, though I don't intend to blow any of my speakers out so I won't be reaching those maximum numbers anytime soon!

    So doing the math, I think it would be better to have two UPS units then? From my very limited reading so far, I have read that a pure sine wave output is still ideal for audio equipment (i.e: home theater), because it may introduce noise in the audio if you use something simulated or stepped. Is this true, and if so, would it be an obvious move to avoid anything less than pure sine wave UPS for audio equipment?

    Thanks, fair enough, and I agree with more clarification :)

    As for the $30 Furman, I was trying to guess what the price was at the time. I must have gotten the most, very basic model. It was definitely somewhere around $50. Super cheap, but that was years ago.
     
  22. Honumaui macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    #22
    I guess I have never used fire insurance :) but does not mean I wont make sure I am covered :)

    a good UPS is worth it ? I have not had issues but I do not enough people that have had issues ? its like the lottery someone always wins !!!

    honestly under $100 ? or just over that sams club UPS from APC are good not great ?
    I use a lot of them on other things ? network switches vonage box cable modem etc.. purely cause brown outs and or power dropping I want my stuff to keep running
    a better one on the main CPU and monitor is nice to have though ?

    but for under $100 if you think you are getting real protection ? dont think so some say use the brick units and then a UPS ?
    my home theater is decent ? about 10K so I have nicer stuff on that and never had issues and Maui had horrid power all the time I live on mainland now ? and power is decent here but still worry about lightning surge so a BRICK unit for $200 is worth it

    the UPS for me is if we just loose power I shut down quickly and dont just drop loosing stuff

    kinda like whats said here to my above about dedicated stuff as the price of a modem or whatever is not worth worrying about put the big money UPS to the CPU and Monitor and thats it !


     
  23. johnnymg macrumors 65816

    johnnymg

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    Nov 16, 2008
    #23
    Simulated sine output UPS's don't "run" while connected to live AC. They only switch to battery===>simulated AC output when the wall AC goes down. i.e. Your equipment doesn't see converted battery power (simulated AC) until the input AC goes outside the acceptable input range.

    The AVR units (CP and APC) also have a switched transformer that will automatically step up-down the utility AC voltage. You will hear a momentary relay "clack" when the switch occurs. Sometimes (rare) this relay will clatter back and forth if the input is right on the hairy-edge of an input threshold.

    cheers
    JohnG
     
  24. Adam0306 macrumors regular

    Adam0306

    #24
    I know that this could be a budget buster but where I work, we have had nothing but great praises about APC. I can't speak against CyberPower since I have not used it before. Here is what I reccomend.
     
  25. nanofrog macrumors G4

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    #25
    Noise is subjective, but I've not had issues with it myself for the Smart UPS line (only the Online models run the fans continuously that I've notices). The BackUPS line is quiet, as Line Interactive models run off of the wall (battery + inverter = switched only when needed). If you get any noise at all, it's the relay as it switches on the auto transformer (i.e. brownout occurs).

    For other brands, I tend to stick with Eaton and Tripp Lite. But the batteries differ in cost than those for APC.

    When I consider cost over lifespan (figure 12 years), a refurbished APC + 3 sets of batteries (3yr MTBR), it tends to come out cheaper.

    Something to consider, so price out the batteries as well to get an idea of what it will cost over time. BTW, the 12yr lifespan is derived from the typical lifespan of electrolytic capacitors (typically ~10 years), and rounded to the nearest whole number for battery replacements.

    Batteries can last up to 5 years, but they diminish over time, just like a car battery (same tech = lead-acid). A 3yr MTBR tends to keep you from getting caught with your pants down proverbially speaking (power outage, and it can't supply the time needed to shut down properly).

    It seems like their equivalent to the SUA1500 (pure sine wave, Line Interactive unit).

    I've no idea as to how good/reliable it is however, as I've never been impressed with their consumer units (= never used one of these). Battery cost is another thing to look into.

    They usually don't use anywhere near what the PSU is rated for (there to cover worst case conditions). But Yes, the power consumption of the Hex will be ~ the same as the 2009 Quads.

    1500VA would be sufficient (larger would mean you have to hire an electrician to install the correct circuit = 240V AC at sufficient current and a NEMA L6-10R outlet.

    Get a Kill-A-Watt unit to see what your typical power draw is. Then go from that.

    It will depend on what your typical draw is.

    If it's too high for a single 1500VA unit to handle, then you can consider using 2x separate units (they'd need to be on separate circuits to be sure you don't trip the breaker; presuming your 120V breakers are rated for 15A).

    Or you could go for a larger unit, and have an electrician install the correct circuit needed to run it (i.e 2000+VA unit).

    The cost of the Kill-A-Watt unit listed above can potentially save you some serious cash (gets you the correct unit, as the various calculators from APC and other vendors use worst case and then some). Which means, you're going to very likely be shown units that are considerably more than what you may actually need.
     

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