2012-2013 NFL Football Thread

[63dot]

The lawyer isn't applying the simultaneous catch rule properly. There is a difference between a catch and a completion/interception and the lawyer doesn't seem to realize that (it's the simultaneous catch rule, not the simultaneous completion rule). I mean, a player can catch the ball for an instant then drop it (due to hitting the ground or being tackled) and it's not a fumble it's an incomplete pass. Catching the ball is the first step towards a completion or interception and Jennings caught the ball. He then pulled the ball to his chest, controlling it, and went to the ground thus completing the act of intercepting the pass.

Tate can try and strip the ball from Jennings but Tate, merely by wrapping his hands around the ball after Jennings made the initial catch, can't be awarded simultaneous possession because Jennings already caught the ball. Either they both caught the ball at the exact same time or they didn't.

Just look at the image below. Jennings caught the ball. He has two hands firmly on the ball and all Tate has is some finger tips on the ball (maybe) and Jennings right forearm.

I also see it the way you do.

But what the lawyer says is probably correct assuming #3 happened and the receiver got more than just fingers on the ball. The #3 point is a big "if".

So the whole thing comes down to "if" he actually got possession after the initial catch from GB. If he did, and then came down first, then it's a Seattle touchdown.

Some pictures seem to indicate that the receiver did get possession at some point, but looking at all the pictures and the whole video(s), it still looks like while the receiver was close to possession at times, it's probably the defender who had possession from beginning to end (by the time both men were down) and thus a clean interception.

The Seattle receiver may have wrestled the ball more towards himself after the play was over thus muddying what really happened. Maybe the receiver finally had possession after the play, but not before. It really doesn't matter what anyone does after the play in that dog pile so it would have been right to award Green Bay just like most fans see it. It's too bad Seattle got the nod on this one and they didn't do anything wrong, but simply tried their best to get a reception.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I also see it the way you do.

But what the lawyer says is probably correct assuming #3 happened and the receiver got more than just fingers on the ball. The #3 point is a big "if".

So the whole thing comes down to "if" he actually got possession after the initial catch from GB. If he did, and then came down first, then it's a Seattle touchdown.

If #2 happens then #3 can't happen. It's not a simultaneous catch if Player A grabs the ball out of the air and then Play B tries to take the ball away from Player A.

The simultaneous catch rule is in place so if two players *catch* the ball at the exact same time and they both possess the ball through the act of completing the catch then the tie goes to the offense. IMO Jennings clearly catches the ball and then Tate tries to wrestle it from him on the way down. After Jennings catches the ball it doesn't matter if on the way to the ground Tate wrestles for the ball and they both end up bear hugging the ball when Tate's feet come down. Jennings caught the ball, he is now the offensive player and all Tate can do, as the defender, is try to strip the ball from Jennings to prevent him from completing the catch. I think this is what's tripping the lawyer up.

The bulk of the lawyer's argument centers on that Tate "completed the catch" by getting got two feet down before Jennings completed the catch by landing on his butt. And it's obvious that Tate got two feet down prior to Jennings landing on his rear end but that's a none issue because Jennings caught the ball, not Tate.

This is a good GIF of the catch. To me Tate's left hand contacts the ball first but Jennings is the one that actually catches (it looks like Tate's fingers on his left hand even slip down the ball as he attempts to grasp it). To have a completed/intercepted pass it is a three step process according to current NFL rules:

A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to
perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it,
advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

I think Jennings caught and controlled the ball out of the air not Tate (and no simultaneous catch) so as long as Jennings completes parts b and c (which I think he clearly does) then I it's an interception. You could argue that just by having Tate's left hand hit the ball that it was simultaneous catch but I don't think that happend. To me Jennings catches the ball and pulls it towards his chest to secure it and Tate's hand just happens to get caught between the ball and Jenning's chest.

 

[63dot]

If #2 happens then #3 can't happen. It's not a simultaneous catch if Player A grabs the ball out of the air and then Play B tries to take the ball away from Player A.

The simultaneous catch rule is in place so if two players *catch* the ball at the exact same time and they both possess the ball through the act of completing the catch then the tie goes to the offense. IMO Jennings clearly catches the ball and then Tate tries to wrestle it from him on the way down. After Jennings catches the ball it doesn't matter if on the way to the ground Tate wrestles for the ball and they both end up bear hugging the ball when Tate's feet come down. Jennings caught the ball, he is now the offensive player and all Tate can do, as the defender, is try to strip the ball from Jennings to prevent him from completing the catch. I think this is what's tripping the lawyer up.

Exactly, at least I see it your way, too.

I think the official refs who reviewed the play upstairs (they kept their regular jobs and have final say) probably went through this scenario over and over wondering if the receiver later wrestled the ball out of defender's arms or if they somehow truly had joint control.

I think the refs upstairs were probably wrong in giving it to Seattle.

I know the rulebook has so many exceptions and is very involved, as the lawyer brought up (and admitted to ambiguity) but I wonder if there is a scenario in the book about:

1) defender catches ball in air
2) receiver gains full control
3) receiver controls ball while landing first, fairly, in bounds

or

1) defender catches ball in air
2) receiver shares control
3) receiver shares control on the way down landing first, fairly, in bounds

What appeared, at first from original single view playback, was clearly a terrible call and caused outrage. My view now, is that while the replacement refs and regular refs upstairs, called it for Seattle, it still should have gone to Green Bay and it was a bad call, but not terrible when seen from all angles.

But that being said, a wrong call is a wrong call and it cost Green Bay a game.

Personally, being a 49ers fan and admittedly biased, I have a stake in saying the game should have gone to Green Bay, and not the NFC West's Seattle. A Seattle loss would have put my SF all alone in second place behind, what, Arizona?!?

 

[LethalWolfe]

But that being said, a wrong call is a wrong call and it cost Green Bay a game.

Yeah, all of this is kind of moot too since Tate shoved the GB defender to the ground and should've been called for offensive PI.

Oh well. Hopefully there's no more ref drama like this the rest of the season.


Lethal

 

[63dot]

Yeah, all of this is kind of moot too since Tate shoved the GB defender to the ground and should've been called for offensive PI.

Oh well. Hopefully there's no more ref drama like this the rest of the season.


Lethal

I didn't think about the offense pass interference but that could have applied against Seattle.

I too hope that things are kept clean and clear. There will be close games again and my hope is that the refs will get it right and not cause us to miss the replacement rent a refs.

 

[steviem]

Argh. Endings like this are so stressful

 

[ECUpirate44]

Argh. Endings like this are so stressful

In Eli we trust.

Edit: Let the "Fire Coughlin" chants begin.

 

[MacNut]

Well that was a **** game. The Eagles seem to be more lucky than good.

 

[Queen of Spades]

Good, tight game. Glad those gift penalties didn't decide the game.

 

[MacNut]

Good, tight game. Glad those gift penalties didn't decide the game.

Well it did cost the Giants 5 yards and 3 points.

 

[Queen of Spades]

Well it did cost the Giants 5 yards and 3 points.

It seemed to me like that was a makeup call for the bad call on Asomugha. And of course I did not start the Eagles defense today, blah.

edit: Nevermind, I thought there was a better bonus for under 20 scoring. I'm sure the Cowboys can do better than 2 points tomorrow. Especially against Smokin' Jay Cutler.

 

[MacNut]

It seemed to me like that was a makeup call for the bad call on Asomugha. And of course I did not start the Eagles defense today, blah.

Those other calls seemed fine to me.

 

[Queen of Spades]

Those other calls seemed fine to me.

LOL. Fair enough. I won't judge for a little homerism.

And if I have to watch Peyton Manning "call Papa Bear" from his Buick or talk about olive tapenade and DirecTV one more time, I might lose it.

 

[pachyderm]

raiders absolutely suck...

 

[steviem]

LOL. Fair enough. I won't judge for a little homerism.

And if I have to watch Peyton Manning "call Papa Bear" from his Buick or talk about olive tapenade and DirecTV one more time, I might lose it.

I feel the same about that stupid Dodge Dart commercial, when it's basically the same car as an Alfa Romeo...

 

[rhett7660]

raiders absolutely suck...

They did against Denver. Wasn't even close.

 

[Queen of Spades]

I feel the same about that stupid Dodge Dart commercial, when it's basically the same car as an Alfa Romeo...

I'm pretty sure the Manning brothers have a combined 3,245 commericals currently airing, so you can deal with Brady's one. I swear they'd hawk Vitameatavegemin if someone approached them about it. For the record, I'm not hating, I'd be a corporate whore too if someone was paying me as much as they get - the frequency of the commercials is my main complaint.

And I'd rather drive a Dodge Dart II than a Buick Anything.

 

[ITS ME DAVID]

Cowboys gonna put a smashing on the bears tonight.

 

[zioxide]

And I'd rather drive a Dodge Dart II than a Buick Anything.

did ya enjoy the 45 point thumping the pats put on the bills in the 2nd half yesterday? All we need now is for them to play like that for 60 minutes.

The defense is still a work in progress, but damn this front 7 is awesome. Spikes and Jones are monsters.

And how about Big Vince?

that's gotta hurt.

Almost as good as the Pats game yesterday was the Jets getting smacked 34-0 at home. haha.

 

[MacDawg]

Falcons didn't play their best game, but made the plays when it counted
Just win baby

4-0 and a 3 game lead in the NFC South already

 

[Queen of Spades]

did ya enjoy the 45 point thumping the pats put on the bills in the 2nd half yesterday? All we need now is for them to play like that for 60 minutes.

Yes, I quite enjoyed it. Mostly because I started getting gloating texts and emails right around halftime. I also feel really superior today because I didn't (and still don't) have an ounce of panic about this team.

They're very, very young, the youngest team of the Belichick era. There will be growing pains, but they are young, athletic, and will continue to improve. I'll take that over the aging, slow defenses of the past. I feel like everyone was giving up by halftime. I didn't, so there's my gloating.

The defense is still a work in progress, but damn this front 7 is awesome. Spikes and Jones are monsters.

And how about Big Vince?

I am loving our defense. Again, it's a work in progress but the talent is there. And Wilfork does not get his due, he's the best NT in the game. I was disappointed people on twitter and forums were being such jerks about the highlight on his wife. If anyone said a negative word like that about the woman I loved, I'd honestly get medieval on their asses. I'll also just never understand why someone else feels like it's okay to judge another person's body or looks or anything else.

Almost as good as the Pats game yesterday was the Jets getting smacked 34-0 at home. haha.

I actually feel bad for Jets fans, no one deserves that **** show. I also am not a fan of dancing in another team's blood, especially when things are already going really, really bad. Drives me nuts when people do it to me (see Red Sox).

Although I admit I was amused when the Giants lost on that last second FG - I know one particularly obnoxious and annoying guy that works in the same building, and all he does is brag and act like a d-bag about the Giants. He's been calling the Patriots "done" for two weeks. I knew I wouldn't be dealing with his crap today.

 

[zioxide]

Yes, I quite enjoyed it. Mostly because I started getting gloating texts and emails right around halftime. I also feel really superior today because I didn't (and still don't) have an ounce of panic about this team.

They're very, very young, the youngest team of the Belichick era. There will be growing pains, but they are young, athletic, and will continue to improve. I'll take that over the aging, slow defenses of the past. I feel like everyone was giving up by halftime. I didn't, so there's my gloating.

A few of my friends started doing the same thing. If there's one thing I've learned over the past 12 years it's that you NEVER count out a team led by #12 until the game is over. Giving up when you're down by just one touchdown at halftime is pathetic. People like that don't deserve to call themselves fans.

I am loving our defense. Again, it's a work in progress but the talent is there. And Wilfork does not get his due, he's the best NT in the game. I was disappointed people on twitter and forums were being such jerks about the highlight on his wife. If anyone said a negative word like that about the woman I loved, I'd honestly get medieval on their asses. I'll also just never understand why someone else feels like it's okay to judge another person's body or looks or anything else.

I'd love to see them say it to Wilfork's face. They'd end up like Donald Jones did after that hit I posted in my last post.

Some people just have nothing better to do than hate on other people to try to make their miserable lives seem better.

I actually feel bad for Jets fans, no one deserves that **** show. I also am not a fan of dancing in another team's blood, especially when things are already going really, really bad. Drives me nuts when people do it to me (see Red Sox).

I usually don't either, but there are a select few teams that I love to see lose and lose big (Jets, Cowboys, Montreal Canadiens, Lakers, and the Yankees). I do kinda feel bad for the Jets fans who are reasonable, decent fans, but the majority them that I have actually met are cocky, arrogant douchebags. The biggest thing I can't stand is when a team like the Jets, who haven't won anything relevant since before we landed on the Moon, talk **** like they have won 4 of the past 5 super bowls. Nothing is more amusing than watching them fall flat on their face after that.

Although I admit I was amused when the Giants lost on that last second FG - I know one particularly obnoxious and annoying guy that works in the same building, and all he does is brag and act like a d-bag about the Giants. He's been calling the Patriots "done" for two weeks. I knew I wouldn't be dealing with his crap today.

This guy sounds like one of the fans I described above. Fortunately for us, like you said, this is the youngest Pats team of the TB/BB era, especially on defense. And we put up 52 on Buffalo yesterday without 2 of our best offensive players and another key contributor. If Mankins, Hernandez, and Edelman are all healthy, and Brady continues to develop his connection with Lloyd (who passed Ochocinco's entire season production in just his 4th game yesterday), look out NFL.

2 closing thoughts:

AWESOME photo of Lloyd's first TD as a Patriot yesterday.. great catch and even better capture by the photographer.

And I'm definitely looking forward to the matchup with Peyton next week. Back in the day (01-05ish), I couldn't stand him, but over time I've come to respect him a lot as a player. It definitely helps now that he's playing in Denver, where I have a bunch of friends and enjoy watching their team. Brady vs Manning is always a good show, so it should be fun. Hoping the Pats win a good game so I can have a good phone call to my boys in Colorado after.

 

[Moyank24]

I actually feel bad for Jets fans, no one deserves that **** show. I also am not a fan of dancing in another team's blood, especially when things are already going really, really bad. Drives me nuts when people do it to me (see Red Sox).

Class act as usual, Queen.

I usually don't either, but there are a select few teams that I love to see lose and lose big (Jets, Cowboys, Montreal Canadiens, Lakers, and the Yankees). I do kinda feel bad for the Jets fans who are reasonable, decent fans, but the majority them that I have actually met are cocky, arrogant douchebags. The biggest thing I can't stand is when a team like the Jets, who haven't won anything relevant since before we landed on the Moon, talk **** like they have won 4 of the past 5 super bowls. Nothing is more amusing than watching them fall flat on their face after that.

How many Jets fans do you actually know? This seems like a teeny weeny exaggeration. I'm thinking maybe some of that is payback from all of the obnoxious Patriots superbowl bandwagoners? We deal with our fair share as well, believe me.

Real Jets fans (and 99.99% of the ones I grew up with) are harder on our team than Patriots fans will ever be. We are also cynical, which, of course, we have every reason to be. I've not experienced one season (even those 2 recent AFC championsip game seasons) where we weren't waiting for the other shoe to drop. And true fans shouldn't be blamed for any of the s*** that Rex or the players say. We don't believe it, and believe me it makes our lives as fans harder.

I am a believer in sports Karma - what goes around will come around....

 

[63dot]

Falcons didn't play their best game, but made the plays when it counted
Just win baby

4-0 and a 3 game lead in the NFC South already

You guys are looking very sharp!

 

[Queen of Spades]

I usually don't either, but there are a select few teams that I love to see lose and lose big (Jets, Cowboys, Montreal Canadiens, Lakers, and the Yankees). I do kinda feel bad for the Jets fans who are reasonable, decent fans,

I get it with some of the fans of those teams, but on this forum, Moyank24 and rdowns are reasonable, decent fans. Do we all know ******s who are fans of teams that are rivals? Of course - that goes for every single team in existence. I'm a Celtics fan living in Laker land, believe me, I've run into plenty of jerks. Doesn't mean I want to be like them just because the opportunity is there (there's obviously a difference between playful trash talking and being a jerk).

This guy sounds like one of the fans I described above. Fortunately for us, like you said, this is the youngest Pats team of the TB/BB era, especially on defense. And we put up 52 on Buffalo yesterday without 2 of our best offensive players and another key contributor. If Mankins, Hernandez, and Edelman are all healthy, and Brady continues to develop his connection with Lloyd (who passed Ochocinco's entire season production in just his 4th game yesterday), look out NFL.

Well, I wouldn't go crowning them just yet. I think they have a ways to go, and our secondary still gives me nightmares - especially against QBs not named Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jake Locker, and Kevin Kolb. I think our O-line did a great job against the Bills, but I also think their D-line is a bit overrated (especially Mario Williams). Let's not forget that the Jets rang up 48 on them. But yes, I definitely see the potential for good things.

Brady vs Manning is always a good show, so it should be fun. Hoping the Pats win a good game so I can have a good phone call to my boys in Colorado after.

Should be a good one. And Denver's defense will be a better indicator of the progression of our offense. I hear Aaron Hernandez will be back sooner than expected. Praise Hestia.

Class act as usual, Queen.

I strongly believe in the sports version of "do unto others."

And true fans shouldn't be blamed for any of the s*** that Rex or the players say. We don't believe it, and believe me it makes our lives as fans harder.

Yeah two words to sum this up for me: Bobby Valentine.

Sometimes people forget that a sports team's success or failure is entirely out of our control. We're essentially a captive audience, nothing more. I sometimes have to tell myself this over and over when bad things happen, LOL. I wish I were kidding.

I am a believer in sports Karma - what goes around will come around....

Me too. Also, there's just no point in rubbing salt in people's wounds. I'm not saying that as a goodie goodie - I thought the same thing after the Arizona game when the Pats lost. Ditto people being jerks when we lost in Baltimore. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy Lawrence Tynes pulling that FG last night, but I'm also not going to laugh or ridicule the Giants fans I know.

I guess it helps that I have people I genuinely like that are fans of my team's rivals.