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2012-2013 NFL Football Thread

zioxide said:
Absolutely disgusting that they are essentially throwing away the credibility of this season and the entire league over 0.03667% of their yearly revenue.
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This year may go down in history with an asterisk with sheer greed being a factor in all of this.

Beyond these horrendous calls is the simultaneous wane of some of the great players of the previous decade and even just last year. While Brady, P. Manning, and Rodgers are probably the best QBs in the game, they look more vulnerable than ever and if one or more of these legends have a bad year, it won't surprise me. The unforgiving nature of the faster pace of the NFL's father time certainly does not need the addition of bad ref calling.

I think that Green Bay got robbed but also (and what is the big elephant in the room not being mentioned) that Rodgers is off to a slow and uncertain start and that just heightens the inaccuracy of the refs' call on that big play. Rodgers could be on a long list of players who have had a few great and early years of starts only to fall back down to earth during the second half of their careers which could be his late-20s into his mid-30s if he lasts that long. The new up and coming young QBs who will one day be the big names still have to suffer the bad calls of these replacement refs so even with this struggle, every team is going to be afflicted with those bad calls. The work ethic of the players will still have to be the same and refs aside, a team has to beat their opponent while also not beating themselves. Rodgers looked uncertain a lot of that game and had it been him like he was all last year, the Packers would have been ahead by three touchdowns.

Call the game what you will, but Seattle's (lucky) QB has some mad skills. I also give a shout out to the Vikings who beat my 49ers.
 
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63dot said:
This year may go down in history with an asterisk with sheer greed being a factor in all of this.

Beyond these horrendous calls is the simultaneous wane of some of the great players of the previous decade and even just last year. While Brady, P. Manning, and Rodgers are probably the best QBs in the game, they look more vulnerable than ever and if one or more of these legends have a bad year, it won't surprise me. The unforgiving nature of the faster pace of the NFL's father time certainly does not need the addition of bad ref calling.

I think that Green Bay got robbed but also (and what is the big elephant in the room not being mentioned) that Rodgers is off to a slow and uncertain start and that just heightens the inaccuracy of the refs' call on that big play. Rodgers could be on a long list of players who have had a few great and early years of starts only to fall back down to earth during the second half of their careers which could be his late-20s into his mid-30s if he lasts that long. The new up and coming young QBs who will one day be the big names still have to suffer the bad calls of these replacement refs so even with this struggle, every team is going to be afflicted with those bad calls. The work ethic of the players will still have to be the same and refs aside, a team has to beat their opponent while also not beating themselves. Rodgers looked uncertain a lot of that game and had it been him like he was all last year, the Packers would have been ahead by three touchdowns.

Call the game what you will, but Seattle's (lucky) QB has some mad skills. I also give a shout out to the Vikings who beat my 49ers.
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dude did you not see how BAD the green bay O-line was? :smh: yes Arod held onto the ball too long but with how absolutley awful his O-line is of course he's not putting up numbers. I guess he will have to prove you wrong yet again my friend :p

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the greed doesn't even really bother me as much as the sheer INCOMPETENCE of all of this. incompetence of the NFL for not hiring professional refs. incompetence of the refs for not getting something worked out. and incompetence of the replacement refs for making such AWFUL decisions. there has to be more to their story because those calls are beyond bad. they must be betting on the games
 
Moyank24 said:
It looks like an agreement has been reached...I'm on my phone so it's a pain to link right now. But we may have real officials by this weekend.

Let the complaints begin anew!
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Thank god! It was really unbearable.

I feel really bad for the Bills and especially Fred Jackson. First game back from injury and he's going to be getting a really pissed off Patriots team that won't be getting phantom flags. :)
 
Queen of Spades said:
Thank god! It was really unbearable.

I feel really bad for the Bills and especially Fred Jackson. First game back from injury and he's going to be getting a really pissed off Patriots team that won't be getting phantom flags. :)
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And here I was hoping it would last until the Jets had at least played the Pats. We need all the help we can get. :p

And here's the story: No deal yet apparently, but close.

The NFL and the NFL Referees Association made enough progress in negotiations Tuesday night that the possibility of the locked-out officials returning in time to work this week's games has been discussed, according to sources on both sides.

An agreement in principle is at hand, according to one source familiar to talks, although NFL owners have postured with a "no more compromise" stance.

Although league sources said it would take a week to get the locked-out officials on the field, the NFLRA says its 121 referees have been trained on the new rules implemented last season, have already passed physicals or are prepared to pass physicals immediately. New official game uniforms designed by Nike are "hardly an obstacle," according to a source.
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Source
 
This might be the first and only time that the officials get a standing ovation from the fans.
 
Here is the latest from ESPN.com:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8427652/locked-nfl-referees-return-early-week-sources

The NFL and the NFL Referees Association made enough progress in negotiations Tuesday night that the possibility of the locked-out officials returning in time to work this week's games has been discussed, according to sources on both sides.

An agreement in principle is at hand, according to one source familiar to talks, although NFL owners have postured with a "no more compromise" stance.

Although league sources said it would take a week to get the locked-out officials on the field, the NFLRA says its 121 referees have been trained on the new rules implemented last season, have already passed physicals or are prepared to pass physicals immediately. New official game uniforms designed by Nike are "hardly an obstacle," according to a source.

Both sides have made concessions on previous sticking points such as a taxi squad of 21 new officials and pension plans that sources say the final meaningful hurdle is, as one source said, "about a little more money."

While league sources say owners who participated in a conference call with commissioner Roger Goodell during Tuesday's talks had instructed the negotiating team to set a firm barrier for the financial settlement, the NFLRA is prepared to accept a new agreement primarily in the form of a "ratification bonus," which would compensate its 121-member union for concessions it is willing to make.

The NFLRA and the league have all but agreed on developing a 21-member "taxi squad" that Goodell has pushed, but not at the financial cost of the union members.

The NFLRA, citing that it once utilized the now-defunct NFL Europe as a training ground of prospective officials, is willing to train 21 officials from the major college ranks by including them in offseason seminars as well as incorporate them in training camp work.

The NFLRA would not unionize those officials and would want them compensated by the league if "they are brought up from the minors" to work a regular-season game.

Goodell has wanted the power to "bench" officials who underperform or are downgraded during the season. The NFLRA contends the league already has that ability because there are always between one and four crews that sit home each week and would be more qualified to substitute in such a scenario.

The NFLRA also wants to form an "expert committee" that would be major contributors to the league's stated goal to improve officiating. Under this proposal, the committee would be comprised of some of the top retired officials and supervisors of major college conferences who had served as NFL officials.
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einmusiker said:
dude did you not see how BAD the green bay O-line was? :smh: yes Arod held onto the ball too long but with how absolutley awful his O-line is of course he's not putting up numbers. I guess he will have to prove you wrong yet again my friend :p

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the greed doesn't even really bother me as much as the sheer INCOMPETENCE of all of this. incompetence of the NFL for not hiring professional refs. incompetence of the refs for not getting something worked out. and incompetence of the replacement refs for making such AWFUL decisions. there has to be more to their story because those calls are beyond bad. they must be betting on the games
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Though I am rooting for the 49ers, a real contender with who they have among past 49ers teams of the last 10+ years, it makes sense for me not to root for A-rod and company.

As far as regular season numbers, Rodgers the best QB in the sport's history for his time played so far. It's nice to see somebody like him, or a Favre, or Brady operate with (usually) such dominant skill. Like Montana, Rodgers can (and will) hit any team player on the field. His favorite receiver is the open one so it makes no sense to cover his favorite or favorites. He can make something out of nothing, even with a weak o-line. I say he's just not up to speed yet.

If he stays healthy, I can't see any reason for him not to put up usually top of the line numbers. Last year he did well and to me it looked as if the 2011-2012 season for his to lose. The worst case scenario is that he doesn't find his rhythm all year.

Let's see if Rodgers can be up to the same form for this season. If he does his usual Rodgers high rating type of play, then I say the rest of the NFC is in for a long, long season. If GB gets to the Super Bowl, they will have to face a team that somewhat has become the "minor" leagues of the NFL in the last five years. If there are any football dynasties, it may be the Giants, 49ers, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Atlanta. I don't see anybody great on the AFC horizon right now other than waning ones.
 
steviem said:
Then 5 minutes later the "we want the replacements back" signs will come out ;)
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If the real refs make calls as bad as the Seahawks vs Steelers Super Bowl, which were two very badly blown calls that would have made a difference in the winner, then yes I think a call for the replacements would be necessary. That being said, the call against a fair Green Bay interception and favoring a Seahawks touchdown will last for a long time in our collective memory.

But for any Seahawks fan to think that their recent lucky call against Green Bay is in some way payback (but against a different team) for that past Super Bowl is ridiculous. The refs are human and prone to mistakes and had the Super Bowl against the Steelers with two really bad calls have been made by replacement refs, then everybody would be up in arms like they are now.

When the real refs take the field this season they will be under a microscope and a lot of questions will be asked if the real ones make a similar bad call. Even if the call isn't blatantly as off, the press and fans will jump on them like no tomorrow. Part of what does make the game exciting is the unknowns of the officiating and how it affects the game. Certain behaviors now weren't tolerated years ago and vice versa. When football was a man's sport, like some black and blue division types like to recall, it was OK to take down the QB hard as if this were a contact sport and a form of fighting. But if you try that today, you won't get away with it, even with blind replacement refs.
 
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There will always be bad calls (like Hochuli's really bad one in the Chargers/Broncos game a few years ago) but I think the biggest differences will be that:

1. The pace of the game will get back to normal (no more endless conferencing and uncertainly about what to do)

2. Rudimentary things like proper ball placement & exhibiting a firm grasp of the rules will be the norm again

3. Players won't get away with cheap shots, illegal hits and 'extracurricular' activities after the whistle like they have with the replacements

Basically, things that everyone took for granted will be back and major gaffes won't be a nearly every game occurrence.
 
How much did the scabs make per game?

Reports of a done deal.
The NFL reached an agreement with the NFL Referees Association late Wednesday to end the referee lockout and are working on the paperwork now, according to a league source.

A high-ranked referee told NFL.com and NFL Network's Jeff Darlington earlier that the officials are prepared to immediately begin work, noting he and many others have gotten access to all of the videos from the last three weeks of games that were distributed to the replacement officials.

While the referee said his colleagues would have liked to work a few preseason games, he says it isn't necessary to do their job.

Earlier Wednesday, the league and referees agreed to create a developmental program as a compromise to the NFL's demand for the addition of 21 officials to the current contingent of 121 NFLRA members, per an NFLRA source. The pool of money for the existing officials also will remain the same.

The developmental officials will be mentored by the existing crews and will be assigned to work with them during the week. The developmental officials will not be NFLRA members, will not work games and will not be eligible to be subbed in initially.

But eventually, as they improve and reach the standards to be NFL officials, they will be considered for NFLRA membership. As that happens, the financial pool for officials will be adjusted accordingly.
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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066725/article/nfl-referees-union-agree-to-end-lockout
 
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vXAE0.jpg
 
The more I watch that play, the more it looks like a catch that Jennings got wrestled away after they were on the ground. It appears that the sequence of events was this:

1. Tate and Jennings jump before contact with the ball
2. Jennings controls ball
3. Tate controls ball
4. Tate's feet touch down in the endzone
= Touchdown
5. Jennings' feet touch down in the endzone

If 4 and 5 were switched, it would have been Green Bay's ball, but they clearly weren't. Of course, the offensive pass interference was missed, but the controversy was more about possession than the OPI.

Here's a good article written by an attorney that discusses the minutiae of the rules:
http://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/10gosf/at_worst_the_tatejennings_play_was_a_difficult/
 
The NFLRA were asking for very little in the grand scheme of things - a small fraction of the amount of money sloshing around the league. The league and owners have been arrogant and greedy throughout the whole affair.
 
Welp, I was obviously overly cynical about the NFL not caving to the criticism.

I'm happy to be wrong about it!
 
mankar4 said:
The more I watch that play, the more it looks like a catch that Jennings got wrestled away after they were on the ground. It appears that the sequence of events was this:

1. Tate and Jennings jump before contact with the ball
2. Jennings controls ball
3. Tate controls ball
4. Tate's feet touch down in the endzone
= Touchdown
5. Jennings' feet touch down in the endzone

If 4 and 5 were switched, it would have been Green Bay's ball, but they clearly weren't. Of course, the offensive pass interference was missed, but the controversy was more about possession than the OPI.

Here's a good article written by an attorney that discusses the minutiae of the rules:
http://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/10gosf/at_worst_the_tatejennings_play_was_a_difficult/
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While it appeared the refs got it wrong, this article seems to show a strong argument for Seattle.

Great link, mankar!

This type of detail is very in line with what I saw in law school. Let's say this was a wrongdoing. At what level against Seattle, based on evidence, do we have that they should not get TD? No standard of wondering about the outcome says that it was beyond reasonable doubt. It's not clear and convincing, either, that GB had the ball. It is a slight hunch, for me, to see it as a true interception. The doubt, which may show a GB interception, really comes into view from other angles. More angles muddies the argument for an interception. Was this really an interception from all angles? Do you have doubt that GB got it done from all four photos? Is that doubt reasonable?

That being said, if there was only the video of what the media showed, then it looks pretty clear GB got the interception.

But then I will play devil's advocate against the lawyer's article:

He says GB guy catches it while in air,

but then Seattle guy gets "joint" control

and Seattle guy's foot and butt enter inbounds on ground

while GB guy only gets one foot on ground.

Eventually GB guy has both feet on ground, inbounds, and Seattle guy seems to get more control of ball than he did when he was merely trying to wrestle it from GB guy.

But it appears that:

1) GB had it first
2) Seattle guy worked towards "joint" control
3) At time Seattle guy got foot and butt on ground he was struggling for control yet didn't quite have it
4) GB guy had more of the control while in air, while on the way down, and when one then both hit inbounds
5) Only when play was over did Seattle guy get at least half the ball in control and "joint" control

I think from this, it shows that GB had, though barely, an interception.

At what section in the rulebook does it say defender can catch ball, then while that defender is in the air, the receiver can snatch ball out of his hands, and then get a "reception" and hit the ground first for a touchdown? And it's kind of doubtful that Seattle ever had "joint" control as it looks from beginning to end more of a GB ball. If it was equally shared, then yes, Seattle touchdown. But where does it really look like Seattle had the ball more in control? Does any camera angle show receiver with "both" hands on that ball, and not merely touching it?

Now if there was offensive pass interference, then it could have been incomplete pass, with possible penalty against Seattle but that's for another part of this play that may not have been looked at as much as this catch by two guys.
 
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What I didn't like is that he has one hand on the ball vs Jennings' 2 hands. Does this ruling mean that if a DB catches an INT and a WR is near he just puts one hand on the ball as he wrestles him down and makes it a complete pass?
 
steviem said:
What I didn't like is that he has one hand on the ball vs Jennings' 2 hands. Does this ruling mean that if a DB catches an INT and a WR is near he just puts one hand on the ball as he wrestles him down and makes it a complete pass?
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I think the argument the lawyer was making is that "if" the receiver had two hands on the ball, and then hit the ground first, then it's a reception (that is if they had "joint" control and Seattle wasn't merely touching the ball).

The pictures, probably selectively taken to form his argument, does show joint control and Seattle hitting ground first and thus a touchdown.

Taken from what we all saw in the game and playback, it looks to be obviously a Green Bay interception.

But taking the photos from the lawyer's link and the video footage and replay we all saw on TV, I would still have to give it over to Green Bay as an interception. But that's my take.

The call, while bad, wasn't as heinous as I had originally thought.

Whatever the outcomes of other close games in the future with controversial calls, if GB is the team they can be and were last year, they should be blowing everybody out.
 
the first link I clicked on the youtube video clearly shows jennings intercepted. Lawyers are paid to twist reality :rolleyes: the call was a complete joke and everyone knows it. At this point I just don't care anymore and want to move on. I'm hoping this loss really makes GB kick themselves in the a$$
 
One last thing before *I* move on.

Nothing wrong with Gronkowski, other than being held. Yes, I'm still bitter about that game, no I will not forget about it. At least the real refs are back this weekend and there will be no more crap like this. And hopefully the Patriots get their **** together in general before my girlfriend, friends and relatives disown me for ongoing crankiness. :D

Outside of the Patriots game, really looking forward to NYG/PHI. Should be a good game with Vick feeling the fire on his backside.
 
Queen of Spades said:
One last thing before *I* move on.

Nothing wrong with Gronkowski, other than being held. Yes, I'm still bitter about that game, no I will not forget about it. At least the real refs are back this weekend and there will be no more crap like this. And hopefully the Patriots get their **** together in general before my girlfriend, friends and relatives disown me for ongoing crankiness. :D

Outside of the Patriots game, really looking forward to NYG/PHI. Should be a good game with Vick feeling the fire on his backside.
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I'm looking forward to it too. Hopefully Tuck and co bring Vick the pain...
 
mankar4 said:
The more I watch that play, the more it looks like a catch that Jennings got wrestled away after they were on the ground. It appears that the sequence of events was this:

1. Tate and Jennings jump before contact with the ball
2. Jennings controls ball
3. Tate controls ball
4. Tate's feet touch down in the endzone
= Touchdown
5. Jennings' feet touch down in the endzone

If 4 and 5 were switched, it would have been Green Bay's ball, but they clearly weren't. Of course, the offensive pass interference was missed, but the controversy was more about possession than the OPI.

Here's a good article written by an attorney that discusses the minutiae of the rules:
http://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/10gosf/at_worst_the_tatejennings_play_was_a_difficult/
Click to expand...
The lawyer isn't applying the simultaneous catch rule properly. There is a difference between a catch and a completion/interception and the lawyer doesn't seem to realize that (it's the simultaneous catch rule, not the simultaneous completion rule). I mean, a player can catch the ball for an instant then drop it (due to hitting the ground or being tackled) and it's not a fumble it's an incomplete pass. Catching the ball is the first step towards a completion or interception and Jennings caught the ball. He then pulled the ball to his chest, controlling it, and went to the ground thus completing the act of intercepting the pass.

Tate can try and strip the ball from Jennings but Tate, merely by wrapping his hands around the ball after Jennings made the initial catch, can't be awarded simultaneous possession because Jennings already caught the ball. Either they both caught the ball at the exact same time or they didn't.

Just look at the image below. Jennings caught the ball. He has two hands firmly on the ball and all Tate has is some finger tips on the ball (maybe) and Jennings right forearm.
img_2309.jpg
 
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