2021 Formula 1 Season Thread

[Pezimak]

The 10 second penalty doesn't affect anything, it is largely symbolic. It does make it clear that the stewards judgement was that there was fault on the part of Max.

I've seen both points of view expressed re the incident with Lewis overtaking Max and in my opinion Lewis would have gone by to the side of Max if Verstappen hadn't slowed very abruptly and more than what normally would be expected. It applies regardless of whether or not Lewis and/or Max was informed that the stewards had ordered for Lewis to be given the position back. Lewis came up on Max very quickly but why would he be prepared for Max slowing more than any reasonable driver would do under those circumstances? Call it brake testing or not, it was unexpected and unpredictable. If Max had a mechanical failure then he would pull to the side of the track and not continue to run in the middle of the track. He stayed in the middle of the track therefore Lewis or any other driver coming up on him would reasonably assume that he was at racing pace or near enough to it. These drivers don't pull over to pass until the last minute in order to obtain the best draft. Lewis therefore came up to Max very rapidly and the slowing that Max did, beyond what Lewis would reasonably expect, resulted in the impact.

That is my logic, anyway. I think that in this instance Max was at fault, but he really lost nothing as a result, and neither did Lewis. The outcome is what would have anyway occurred given the performance of the cars and condition of the tires during the latter stages of the race.

I don’t agree with you in the slightest, and I want to know why the FIA and the stewards did not penalise Bottas for breaching the rules and purposely hanging off the safety cars pace to allow Lewis to have a free pit stop. Even the Sky presenters stated he was cheating.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

An undeserved penalty created to cover up the balls up Mercedes and the Race Director made because it serves no purpose, and the fact they manufactured the points before the final race...

I think we can agree the FIA are to some degree afraid of ruining the show by giving proper penalties, but our conclusion is very different.

Max was very lucky to receive a penalty that didn’t affect his final finishing position IMO. Going into the last race level on points is a big let off. If you think lifting off the accelerator when being slipstreamed is not the fault of that driver, then I can’t he’ll you there. We’ve seen Vettel punished for this in Monaco and also Alonso in years past. Max should have moved aside and not stay central if he was going to do this and this is the reason he was penalised. The penalty of 10 seconds was about as lenient as it gets, but anything else would ruin the excitement of the last race. Marketing and exposure wins the day.

 

[Pezimak]

I think we can agree the FIA are to some degree afraid of ruining the show by giving proper penalties, but our conclusion is very different.

Max was very lucky to receive a penalty that didn’t affect his final finishing position IMO. Going into the last race level on points is a big let off. If you think lifting off the accelerator when being slipstreamed is not the fault of that driver, then I can’t he’ll you there. We’ve seen Vettel punished for this in Monaco and also Alonso in years past. Max should have moved aside and not stay central if he was going to do this and this is the reason he was penalised. The penalty of 10 seconds was about as lenient as it gets, but anything else would ruin the excitement of the last race. Marketing and exposure wins the day.

He left a country mile, Lewis played the game and refused to overtake at that spot all due to the DRS and noted by the stewards and then rammed him, sorry but Lewis had a country mile left open to over take and refused to do so. We will have to agree to disagree as I won’t change my opinion on this one. And I’m still mad Bottas got no penalty.

 

[ericwn]

I didn’t watch the race, but from what I’ve read I agree with your Abu Dhabi scenario. Very likely we will see Suzuka 1990 between Prost and Senna (Although I see Max as more of a modern day Michael Schumacher.)

Max’s relationship with the Stewards after todays post race comments would guarantee a DQ for Max.

While many see this season as terrific, I see it as a total failure of the FIA, Massi, and the Stewards to maintain consistent expectations all season.

Saudi was the crown jewel of F1 prostituting itself for monetary gain.

If Max were anything close to Schumacher, he’d have two driver championships already. He certainly behaves pretty aggressively, that’s for sure.

If Lewis loses it this year, it will come back to driving straight and losing a race due to that.
If Max loses it this year he’ll lose it because of his attitude for seeking physical contact. One of them will apply shortly.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

He left a country mile, Lewis played the game and refused to overtake at that spot all due to the DRS and noted by the stewards and then rammed him, sorry but Lewis had a country mile left open to over take and refused to do so. We will have to agree to disagree as I won’t change my opinion on this one. And I’m still mad Bottas got no penalty.

Max had a country mile to move over in that case. Staying dead centre of the track knowing Lewis is tucked under his rear wing and lifting off is poor driving .

 

[BenTrovato]

I think both guys are misbehaving.

And I've read, elsewhere, that Max was trying to avoid losing the advantage of the DRS zone and so was Lewie.

I felt like the Merc was the better car all weekend.

I also feel like it will be the better car come this weekend.

Well said pachy!

I also feel the Merc has been the better car for some time now and I think the entire paddock knows it including RBR.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Well said pachy!

I also feel the Merc has been the better car for some time now and I think the entire paddock knows it including RBR.

I think RBR have the better car.
Mercedes have the better engine.
As to which of those is best depends on the type of track, temperature etc.

 

[CWallace]

I think we can agree the FIA are to some degree afraid of ruining the show by giving proper penalties...

My biggest issue with the officiating is the stewards so often defer their decision until "after the conclusion of the race" and then we have retroactive penalties being applied which either affect the race results or, more often, impact the race results of the next round when they are applied as grid penalties post-qualifying.

I understand they often do this to get both drivers' input into what happened, but in the case they might as well just handle every incident like that and have a general tribunal with the team principals, drivers, track marshals, etc. to ensure as much evidence as possible is presented and then give the stewards a few days to chew over it (so a Wednesday Ruling).


Personally, I think the stewards need to be required to issue a ruling within 15 minutes of a complaint being filed by a team*. They have video. They have telemetry data from the track and should have the relevant data from the cars
(throttle / brake application, steering-angle, etc.) to then make a decision and have it enforced during the race.

* - In the event a complaint is filed less than 15 minutes before the end of the race, the stewards should have the option to automatically deny it ("No further action warranted") if they feel it was not egregious enough to affect the outcome of the race (and, IMO, Max and Lewis' collision would not warrant further action under this guideline) or if they do decide to issue a ruling post-race, the 15 minute rule still applies so even if it could impact the Podium, they can get it done in time to do so without causing too much of a wait for the ceremony.

If Max were anything close to Schumacher, he’d have two driver championships already. He certainly behaves pretty aggressively, that’s for sure.

I'm inclined to believe it is that hunger for a first WDC that influences Max's aggressiveness. And it certainly doesn't help when you have some like Helmut Marko waiting in the wings to drop you if you don't perform.

And make no mistake, Max may be "the Golden Boy" right now, but if he does not have a WDC by the end of next year, I could very easily see RBR kicking him to the curb for someone else.

Not to say if Max wins the WDC this year he will suddenly become a serene driver (sure didn't happen with Senna), but we might not see him take quite as many risks as he seems ready to do now.

I think RBR have the better car.
Mercedes have the better engine.
As to which of those is best depends on the type of track, temperature etc.

AMG seems to have the better low-downforce configuration which is why they do so well when slipstreaming someone on a long straight.

RBR seems to generate more downforce so they are better in the "twisty parts", but struggle a bit on the straights and depend on the greater power of the Honda engine to help them there.

 

[Apple fanboy]

My biggest issue with the officiating is the stewards so often defer their decision until "after the conclusion of the race" and then we have retroactive penalties being applied which either affect the race results or, more often, impact the race results of the next round when they are applied as grid penalties post-qualifying.

I understand they often do this to get both drivers' input into what happened, but in the case they might as well just handle every incident like that and have a general tribunal with the team principals, drivers, track marshals, etc. to ensure as much evidence as possible is presented and then give the stewards a few days to chew over it (so a Wednesday Ruling).


Personally, I think the stewards need to be required to issue a ruling within 15 minutes of a complaint being filed by a team*. They have video. They have telemetry data from the track and should have the relevant data from the cars
(throttle / brake application, steering-angle, etc.) to then make a decision and have it enforced during the race.

* - In the event a complaint is filed less than 15 minutes before the end of the race, the stewards should have the option to automatically deny it ("No further action warranted") if they feel it was not egregious enough to affect the outcome of the race (and, IMO, Max and Lewis' collision would not warrant further action under this guideline) or if they do decide to issue a ruling post-race, the 15 minute rule still applies so even if it could impact the Podium, they can get it done in time to do so without causing too much of a wait for the ceremony.



I'm inclined to believe it is that hunger for a first WDC that influences Max's aggressiveness. And it certainly doesn't help when you have some like Helmut Marko waiting in the wings to drop you if you don't perform.

And make no mistake, Max may be "the Golden Boy" right now, but if he does not have a WDC by the end of next year, I could very easily see RBR kicking him to the curb for someone else.

Not to say if Max wins the WDC this year he will suddenly become a serene driver (sure didn't happen with Senna), but we might not see him take quite as many risks as he seems ready to do now.




AMG seems to have the better low-downforce configuration which is why they do so well when slipstreaming someone on a long straight.

RBR seems to generate more downforce so they are better in the "twisty parts", but struggle a bit on the straights and depend on the greater power of the Honda engine to help them there.

The nightmare scenario is the race finishes and we still don’t know the winner due to some incident and late night deliberations by the stewards. That would be unbearable! Just let them have a nice clean race with no crashes, safety cars or penalties. That’s what I want to see. Especially with overtaking done on the track, not in the pit Lane.

 

[CWallace]

Especially with overtaking done on the track, not in the pit Lane.

I'd be okay if they closed Pit Lane when a Safety Car (virtual or actual) is triggered and once the field is behind the SC (or one lap under VSC has been completed) cars could then come in for service. Right now it favors the cars that can jump into the pits right away versus those who are already past the pits and have to circle back so it would make things fairer for the entire field.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I'd be okay if they closed Pit Lane when a Safety Car (virtual or actual) is triggered and once the field is behind the SC (or one lap under VSC has been completed) cars could then come in for service. Right now it favors the cars that can jump into the pits right away versus those who are already past the pits and have to circle back so it would make things fairer for the entire field.

It’s never going to happen, but your right SC becomes another strategic decision that favours one over another.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I'd be okay if they closed Pit Lane when a Safety Car (virtual or actual) is triggered and once the field is behind the SC (or one lap under VSC has been completed) cars could then come in for service. Right now it favors the cars that can jump into the pits right away versus those who are already past the pits and have to circle back so it would make things fairer for the entire field.

I definitely think they should close the pit lane the second the SC car is deployed. It would make it more exciting when there is a scramble after the track is clear again.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Mercedes making their point very clear. ‘The right way’.
I know the social media team make light of the events but you can imagine behind the scenes they are still furious and rightly so. Still, onwards to Abu Dhabi and let’s hope it’s a clean race from Red Bulls side. I wouldn’t want to see the championship decided by an Adelaide 1994 style scenario. It would massively taint Max further too I think and it was something Michael Schumacher was never able to shrug off.

 

[pachyderm]

I think RBR have the better car.
Mercedes have the better engine.
As to which of those is best depends on the type of track, temperature etc.

Good point

 

[ipsedixit]

Mercedes making their point very clear. ‘The right way’.
I know the social media team make light of the events but you can imagine behind the scenes they are still furious and rightly so. Still, onwards to Abu Dhabi and let’s hope it’s a clean race from Red Bulls side. I wouldn’t want to see the championship decided by an Adelaide 1994 style scenario. It would massively taint Max further too I think and it was something Michael Schumacher was never able to shrug off.

I just threw up in my mouth. Twice.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I just threw up in my mouth. Twice.

Thanks for sharing that, I get a bit of personal satisfaction from that admission lol.

 

[ericwn]

I just threw up in my mouth. Twice.

Careful though, if the first throw up break checks the second one erratically that second one might still win.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Careful though, if the first throw up break checks the second one erratically that second one might still win.

If I was driving down the track and someone stopped in the middle it wouldn’t be sick I’d be leaking out. Probably need a change of overalls.

Glad we only have to wait a week!

 

[Pezimak]

My biggest issue with the officiating is the stewards so often defer their decision until "after the conclusion of the race" and then we have retroactive penalties being applied which either affect the race results or, more often, impact the race results of the next round when they are applied as grid penalties post-qualifying.

I understand they often do this to get both drivers' input into what happened, but in the case they might as well just handle every incident like that and have a general tribunal with the team principals, drivers, track marshals, etc. to ensure as much evidence as possible is presented and then give the stewards a few days to chew over it (so a Wednesday Ruling).


Personally, I think the stewards need to be required to issue a ruling within 15 minutes of a complaint being filed by a team*. They have video. They have telemetry data from the track and should have the relevant data from the cars
(throttle / brake application, steering-angle, etc.) to then make a decision and have it enforced during the race.

* - In the event a complaint is filed less than 15 minutes before the end of the race, the stewards should have the option to automatically deny it ("No further action warranted") if they feel it was not egregious enough to affect the outcome of the race (and, IMO, Max and Lewis' collision would not warrant further action under this guideline) or if they do decide to issue a ruling post-race, the 15 minute rule still applies so even if it could impact the Podium, they can get it done in time to do so without causing too much of a wait for the ceremony.



I'm inclined to believe it is that hunger for a first WDC that influences Max's aggressiveness. And it certainly doesn't help when you have some like Helmut Marko waiting in the wings to drop you if you don't perform.

And make no mistake, Max may be "the Golden Boy" right now, but if he does not have a WDC by the end of next year, I could very easily see RBR kicking him to the curb for someone else.

Not to say if Max wins the WDC this year he will suddenly become a serene driver (sure didn't happen with Senna), but we might not see him take quite as many risks as he seems ready to do now.




AMG seems to have the better low-downforce configuration which is why they do so well when slipstreaming someone on a long straight.

RBR seems to generate more downforce so they are better in the "twisty parts", but struggle a bit on the straights and depend on the greater power of the Honda engine to help them there.

The Mercedes overheats more when following closely to other cars in the heat. RB cars manage it much better. Also the RB cars are better round the corners as they are a raked design, Mercedes better down the straight as it’s a flat design.

We will see who wins this weekend. Is it another sprint race?

 

[Glideslope]

2022 is going to be a Circus.

 

[ipsedixit]

Thanks for sharing that, I get a bit of personal satisfaction from that admission lol.

Well, we all know what would happen if neither Max nor Hamilton finish the race at Abu Dabhi.

I would get a more than a bit of personal satisfaction if, say, Max and Hamilton suddenly crashed and neither finished the race.

#WinnerMaxWC

 

[Apple fanboy]

Well, we all know what would happen if neither Max nor Hamilton finish the race at Abu Dabhi.

I would get a more than a bit of personal satisfaction if, say, Max and Hamilton suddenly crashed and neither finished the race.

#WinnerMaxWC

That would be the worst possible outcome.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Well, we all know what would happen if neither Max nor Hamilton finish the race at Abu Dabhi.

I would get a more than a bit of personal satisfaction if, say, Max and Hamilton suddenly crashed and neither finished the race.

#WinnerMaxWC

It would certainly sum up Max’s year and if he’s going to win it, I think it would be rather fitting. Part of me is expecting Max to take Lewis out knowing he’ll win based on race victories. It would be remembered as a scrappy year where desperation and unsportsmanlike behaviour broke Mercedes’ run. I’m sure plenty will still celebrate it though as something amazing. I’m not sure I like the new wave of F1 fan in this era, but hey.

 

[admwright]

It would certainly sum up Max’s year and if he’s going to win it, I think it would be rather fitting. Part of me is expecting Max to take Lewis out knowing he’ll win based on race victories. It would be remembered as a scrappy year where desperation and unsportsmanlike behaviour broke Mercedes’ run. I’m sure plenty will still celebrate it though as something amazing. I’m not sure I like the new wave of F1 fan in this era, but hey.

This is how I am feeling at this point. Would have been better for the final race if Max was 1 point behind then if he drives like he has been lately he would be throwing away the championship win.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

This is how I am feeling at this point. Would have been better for the final race if Max was 1 point behind then if he drives like he has been lately he would be throwing away the championship win.

Absolutely.
I think this season has been so littered with incidents between these two, whoever wins will be criticised. They will race hard in Abu Dhabi there is no doubt, but I don’t think Max has the finesse when it comes to wheel to wheel racing. He’s always been prone to bumping wheels and this was probably most evident during 2018 when he threatened to headbutt journalists who asked him questions about it lol. If Lewis and Max are side by side at the first corner or anywhere on the first lap, I think Max will forget to brake for a third time this season but this time collect Lewis. I hope I am wrong and I’d love to see a proper hard fought race from both of them.

I agree if Max was one point behind, we’d see a much better race. Unfortunately he can afford to not finish as long as Lewis doesn’t.